“PORN” found in Michael Jackson’s home 2
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When I told you we were finished with the list of “molestation” evidence found at Neverland I said it too soon – it turns out that there is a continuation to the list and we are forced to go on with the job.
The next item on the list isthe book called BIGHOOD, by James Bighood. The police say about it: “Although a majority of the models were nude and/or semi-nude the models were not depicted engaging in sexually explicit activities”.
The Amazon customer however focuses not so much on the nudity but on the achievemens of the photographer and costume designer who worked sometime in the 50s. The accompanying picture gives some idea of his creative style: 
- “James Bidgood was a costumer and photographer in the 1950s. “Bidgood” is a terrific introduction to the 66-year-old photographer’s work. Although some may consider the style of the photos kitschy and campy, Bidgood argues (through his work) that beauty informs style and fashion. These aren’t interchangeable twinks in satyr costumes; these photographs harken back to an era when a different gay sensibility ruled. They are reminiscent of Cocteau, Genet and Anger. The informative and detailed accompanying essays help the reader understand what he’s seeing, and place Bidgood’s work in a broader artistic, photographic, and cultural context. Excellent!
The picture from this book vaguely reminded me of some of Michael’s videos – of the “angel” introduction to the “You are not alone” movie and the magical forest in the “Childhood” video – and made me realize more than ever that Michael Jackson’s interest in photography was professional – it helped him find new ideas and images for his videos.
The books we see in the prosecution list are surely only a tiny little bit of Michael’s huge collection which contained more than 10,000 books including photography. If only we could see all of them… Unfortunately the collection of books presented here is not our choice as the selection was forcibly compiled for us by the police, who naturally selected the worst. Hey, so this is the worst? O-la-la…
They say the book could have been used for ‘grooming’ our dear Arvizos. To be frank with you I can hardly imagine today’s teenagers looking at the sweet pictures of the 50s without a laugh and being ‘groomed’ with their help too. Different generation, you know – much more sophisticated in some issues than anything the above book of the 50s can offer them…
The next item is a letter about going to Florida and Jackson being a dad to the other person (?!) How very interesting. Let’s make a mental note of this curious fact but not get too distracted from our main purpose.
Next comes the baby book I mentioned earlierand some loose papers attributed to Paris and Prince. I hope these are not a crime.
The next item on the list is HOW THE MIND WORKS by Christen D.Larson. 
Why on earth did the police include this into their list? They explain it by the name and telephone written somewhere inside the book – and we must admit that whoever ‘Wolfgang’ was, his choice of a present for Michael was a very decent one. There is no reader’s comment on this book but other publications by the same author called “What is truth” and especially “Leave it to God” convince us that there may be no damage to anyone’s morals from this side.
The next book is a collection of photos again dated the 30s of the last century. Its title is WILHELM VON GLOEDEN: TAORMINA. The police describe it as ‘a compilation of photographs which depicted both adult and juvenile males, who were posed in the nude. None of the photographs depicted the individuals in sexually explicit activities’.
The customer calls these nudes “an indispensible volume for the art of photography library”:
- For over a century the art photographs of Wilhelm von Gloeden (1856 – 1931) have been admired and collected, maligned and banned, and have generally been a landmark in the study of the male nude in art. …While in Cicily the photographer could use his camera to capture Scilian youths in staged, classical poses – an homage to Greek and Roman myths and times. This book is graced by a fine preface written by Ulrich Pohlmann, a terse essay which surveys the artist’s life and makes a fine argument for the inclusion of von Gloeden’s photograhs in the museums of the world. And then come the actual jewels – sepia toned moments of classicism using the working class Scilian youths for his Golden Mean models… It is a joy to have this collection available in its entirety.
The next item on the list is BEFORE THE HAND OF MAN, by Roy Dean. The police say the book was a ‘compilation of photographs which depicted nude males in natural scenes. The material within the book did not appear to be pornographic in nature’.
The book was published in 1972 and had one edition only. Since there are neither pictures nor commentary to it – and we do need to know what the book is all about – I had to look up another photo collection by the same author called ADAM TODAY, compiled sometime in the 60s and 70s. The book had the following comment from a reader and an illustration to it:
D
id I really enjoy this book? Yes. Is it worth having in my collection? Yes. The only fault I might find with this book is that some of the color male nude images are a little blurry, but this is probably due to the period these photos were taken, the 60’s & 70’s and the transfer to this large book size. However, that’s a very minor problem, most of the images are crystal clear and beautiful. Roy Dean’s photography will always share a special place in my collection. He’s a very special photographer, a pioneer of our time, and a very different and original photographer!
What do I make of these innocent and old-fashioned nude pictures by famous photographers? I think the photo collections were needed for Michael Jackson’s work – for styling and restyling some of his own own photos and videos into something neo-classical, catchy, glamorous, sexy and visually irresistable.
And what a miracle, the PROOF of that is suddenly found right in this police report, almost on the same page just a couple of paragraphs earlier in the text – in an piece of evidence called by the police item 1004. They describe it as “seven photographs of unidentified males in their late teens, or early twenties”.
“The pictured individuals are light skinned African Americans who were posed in a provocative manner and were wearing little or no clothing. The subjects’ private areas were covered by what little clothing they were wearing, or by cloth material purposely placed to cover the genitalia. The following phrase was written on the box containing the photographs -“Why Photo shoot”. In addition, Michael Jackson was also photographed in the company of these individuals. Again, these individuals were posed in provocative manner with bare chests”.
“It should be noted”, says the police officer, “I recognized the photographs described as being associated with the pop group, “3T”. I further learned the pictured individuals were Michael Jackson’s nephews (Tito Jackson’s sons).
Although the photos contained in items 1003 through 1008 appear to be commercially produced, they do depict young males in limited clothing and various provocative poses… This type of material can be used as part of a “grooming” process by which people seeking to molest children are able to lower the inhibitions of their intended victims and facilitate the molestation of said victims”.
The stylish sepia (brownish) image photographers like so much
Well, while the police keep babbling about their ‘grooming’ nonsense I suggest we watch the truly great WHY video (one of my favorites) and see how the handsome ‘semi-nude males’ with really ‘bare chests’ and sometimes ‘limited clothing’ are singing together with Michael Jackson a great song produced by their uncle – all about us, women… And how effectively Michael the producer, is using here everything he might have learned from those photography lessons:
Why does Monday come before Tuesday? Why do summers start in June?
Why do winters come too soon? Why do people fall in love,
When they’re always breaking up? Oh why?
Why do we love if love will die? Why does Wednesday come after Tuesday?
Why do flowers come in May? Why does springtime go away?
Why do people fall in love, When they’re always breaking up? Oh why?
Why do I love you? Tell me why
It’s not like I can’t explain what’s in my heart
It’s just I feel a crazy pain when we’re apart
I don’t wanna breathe I don’t wanna think I don’t wanna love I don’t wanna do anything
It’s not like I can’t describe what’s going on
It’s just I feel I’m not alive when you’re not home
I don’t wanna sleep I don’t wanna dream I just want you here beside me
Without you there’s no me
Why does Monday come before Tuesday? …
…Why do I love you?
Tell me why
It’s not like I can’t escape what’s in my soul
‘Cause with you inside my heart,
Where can I go?
I don’t wanna see
No you without me
I can’t go through life without you
Without you, there’s no me
Why does Monday come before Tuesday?… Why do the rivers flow to the sea?
If rivers flow, why can’t your love flow through me, babe? Why does my heart, uuh, feel so missed?
To be in love
To feel in love
Why don’t I feel complete?
Why does Monday come before Tuesday? …Why do I love you? Tell me why?
Yes, tell me WHY?
Why did all of them MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL?
Vindicating Michael 
@lacienegasmiles:
I finished Dr. Van Vallin’s book and found it delightful! I was struck by the fact that Michael also ordered a large number of books from a catalog. I can easily imagine him sitting, rather happily, with a mail order catalog picking out whatever he pleased. I also wonder if he had internet accounts for booksellers such as Powell’s. It is a shared passion, we seem to have.
BTW: I saw finally a copy of The Chop Suey Club at the Stand here in New York City on Saturday. It is kept in the rare book Room under lock and key. I sat with it for 45 minutes and i cannot understand why it was taken at all. It focused on Peter Johnson and only had 3-4 nude shots of him. Nothing outre at all.
thanks for the wonderful exchanges. It is appreciated!
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The funny thing, in my country, is you can find books like the Dave Nestler or The Gynoids in the comics part of a bookstore and we don’t really hide that from kids.
I bet Sneddon would be terrified by l’Origine du Monde by Gustave Courbet.
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“I was looking at the mans who had the video on YouTube of the pictures in an artbook MJ had, and it made me laugh when I saw he has a video of males at the Sistine Chapel.”
Sneddon would have failed any art history class that he would deign to enroll in.
“And this scene from Dangerous was inspired by the “Gynoids” book:”
I am not familiar with the scene mentioned.
I read an excerpt of Dr Van Valin’s Book. Architecture was a great love also of Michael’s I hope to have that book by Thursday. Cannot wait to read it.
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From Helena
And this scene from Dangerous was inspired by the “Gynoids” book:
———–
this outfit he used in Dangerous, with the spikes , that Sneddon said was sinister , I thought MJ had borrowed that from Fred Astairs Bandwagon Movie, where he had taken some ideas for Smooth Criminal, if I remember right..
For all we know , someone involved in that movie could have used that book for inspiration or suggested it to MJ to get ideas.
MJ was good friends with a lot of old Hollywood people ,and some of those books might have inspired movies that MJ loved
He seemed to loved Casablanca , an old nostalgic movies .
Even the architecture of the old Hollywood buildings is beautiful…
This is what a witch hunt this thing was.
Fred Astair , Sammy Davis and other grown men would hang out with a very young MJ, they were mentors to him..
The people from Motown and the groups he met at the Apollo were adults hanging out with him too
Ron Zonen stays in touch with the Arvizo brothers, visits them , calls then up..
Why does he consider himself a mentor and not see that MJ was a mentor to many also.
He just had so much money he presented opportunity for a few greedy people and tabloid reporters.
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From Lyande51
In my opinion Sneddon and company would find the Sistine Chapel erotic if they ever looked at it. To them there is absoultely no such thing as innocent nudity.
—- ——
I was looking at the mans who had the video on youtube of the pictures in an artbook MJ had, and it made me laugh when I saw he has a video of males at the Sistene Chapel.
Maybe Sneddon should arrest him too..
His acct seem to be in celebration of the beauty of the male form.
Some may not be my cup of tea, but they seems to have a deeper artistic merit , and a deeper understanding then a casual observer might have, liked me..
I think you are right about Sneddon seeing filth in every naked form
If you are an artist, and half the world is male, , it isnt that big of deal.
Some of the most impressive and heralded art is nudes..
Sneddon was just a man on a mission.
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“He told me several times to study and to be inspired by the great artists. I was astonished when I realised how knowledgeable he was when it came to classic art. He told me about Michelangelo, Delacroix, Leonardo Da Vinci and Nicolas Poussin. We talked about modern popular illustrators such as Norman Rockwell or Scott Gustafson. In his hotel room there were often piles of art books. He was very fond of the figurative style and enjoyed everything related to fantasy. Following his advice I paced up and down most of Paris’ museums, staring at the work of all the greatest masters and worked hard to improve my craft.”
http://www.celine-lavail.com/en/michael-jackson
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It was actually painted before he and Lisa Marie got together in 1993, I suspect really it’s about the woman he proposed to before her. Later on Brett would claim that one of the women behind MJ and this dark woman was Lisa Marie, and then he would go on to repaint it again and call it The Lovers, and this time feature Lisa Marie as the woman:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MwRWhOKVFvk/ThrOTXTXAZI/AAAAAAAAnS0/yfxh_H-YCLQ/s1600/MichaelJacksonLoversPortraitbyBrettLivingstoneStrong.png
In that NE story with Brett in 1994, you can see two other pre-Raphaelite styled paintings, and actually my own two favorite pre-Raphaelite paintings, repainted by Brett featuring MJ, The Lady of Shallot by Waterhouse and Ophelia Drowning by John Everett Millais.
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It was evident from the Bashir interview that Michael had a very good understanding of these allegorical subjects. These subjects ( as an art History Major myself) form the foundation of understanding many of the world’s greatest paintings mean and are about, as well as religious subjects. During a trip to a Las Vegas art and antique shop, he specifically pointed out a painting saying, “that is Apollo bathing.” To which the dealer (or crook as he was gleefully rubbing his hands together. A matter of opinion here) replied, “Michael knows his art.” that small glimpse, was perhaps the only good thing to have come out f that dreadful business. It was the realization that Michael had this understanding of this subject. Indeed, it would have been fascinating to have Michael in anyone’s college Art History course to get his views on various works of art. He could have had a second career as an Art Historian and painter if he had lived and so desired. as one of my professors said to me years ago, “Art History is the one profession that you get better at as you grow older.”
With respect to the commissioned painting, “The Lovers” YES! I knew all about it and the other paintings that had Lisa in them. It is proof of Michael’s romantic and in this instance, sensual nature. also, it shows how he felt about her and their relationship. It is one of the topics that is a joy to discuss on other fora.
As for Vermeer? That is something that I was not aware of. I will say this though about Michael’s fascination with Vermeer. It makes sense on another level, as Vermeer was a an
enigmatic artist, whose work and life are much discussed even to this very day.
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Just one more note about Michael’s interest in art and photography. When Brett Livingstone spoke of his portrait of Michael called “Book” he said that it had “touches of Vermeer, as that was one of Mr. Jackson’s favorite painters”:
No surprise here, as it is only the fact that Michael Jackson sat for the portrait that makes Brett Livingstone’s painting significant (in my opinion), but what really impresses is Michael’s choice of a favorite artist – it was the Dutch artist of the 17th century Jan Vermeer.
This fact is amazing, totally amazing. Firstly, Vermeer is relatively not known and this shows how deep Michael’s knowledge of art was, and secondly, Vermeer’s work (1632-1675) is the closest thing to modern-day photography. In his work Vermeer used camera obscura described by Wiki as follows:
Vermeer’s use of light, color and perspective was unique and his works look like contemporary art and often as photos.
Guys, it is really important to know who Michael Jackson’s favorite painter was, so here are some of the best pictures by Vermeer – they are truly great and far ahead of his time. Michael’s choice of Vermeer is amazing – I am in total awe of both Vermeer and Michael Jackson who appreciated him!
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Lacienega, thank you very much for the picture. It is very symbolic that the subject of various insinuations about”porn” in MJ’s home is returning to where it belongs – to Michael’s relations with women and his infatuation with Lisa Marie Presley.
Here is some more information on this subject:
Brett Livingstone Strong says about his picture of Michael and LMP: “It’s a story about a man who is in love”. Now the painting is called “The lovers”.
The National Enquirer had a story about the way LMP and Michael met. What first was regarded by both of them as a friendship and possible partnership later turned into love. I am sorry, I am not terribly impressed by Livingstone’s art but his recollection of MJ and LMP is priceless:
(to see the full picture please click here: http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt356/dee201957/scan0041a.jpg)
Lisa Marie Presley saved Michael Jackson from killing himself when the child sex abuse scandal drove him to the brink of despair,says the man who introduced the pop superstar to Elivis’ daughter.
In an exclusive Enquirer interview ,Hollywood artist Breet Livingstone Strong- a longtime friend of both Michael and Lisa Marie-spoke freely about his role in the marriage that shocked the world.
Telling his remarkable story for the first time ever, Strong revealed that:
* Lisa Marie fell in love with Michael first and pursued him relentlessly
* The newlyweds are truly in love with each other- and both of them want to start a family.
* Lisa Marie told Michael she wanted to be a singing star- and when he warned her she’d have to ”give up everything” to succeed,she broke down in tears. But now she’s dedicated to becoming a superstar and Michael has vowed to make her dream come true.
”When I introduced Lisa Marie and Michael in my wildest dreams did I think they’d marry,” said Strong.
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I wonder what happened to the photographs he took?
I imagine he had whole drawers full of his photos, and the police would’ve raided through all of them too.
Yeah, MJ was hugely interested in the Greeks and Romans. You can see it in some of the art he had, besides of course loving Renaissance artists and the pre-Raphaelites, who also were fond of Roman and Greek mythology, here’s a painting he had done based on Waterhouse’s Hylas and the Nymphs:
http://i.imgur.com/fSHqdl.jpg
I’d imagine he knew what the story behind that painting was. I think he also liked the Daybreak painting because of that same theme.
He also called a statue he had in his home of Narcissus after himself as a joke, and knew a lot about Socrates, Plato, etc Many friends have said how much he loved Grecian and Roman mythology and had many books on that.
So I imagine he owned books like that for that same theme.
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@ lacienegasmiles:
I confess that I did not know about the depth of Michael’s interest in the ancient Greeks and Romans, apart from allegorical subjects, that formed the foundation of his art collection – often where he inserts himself.
Your point about the darkroom is well taken.
I wonder what happened to the photographs he took?
YANA video clearly is from Daybreak.
Reviewing this material could be a specialized Art History course: Michael Jackson and his use of painting and classical motifs in pop music! 🙂
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I doubt Michael had a dark room as it likely would’ve been noted by the police.
You are not alone is from Maxfield Parriish and it’s called Daybreak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_%28painting%29
This is true, and MJ had mentioned being a fan of that painting many years before 1994 actually, but MJ was a huge fan of the Ancient Greeks and the Romans, and read up a lot about them, so I could see why he’d have a book like that. He may have either been interested in it for itself, as he’s such a well known photographer, or it came in a batch of other books about that kind of thing. I’d have been curious what the titles of all the other books found in those boxes were, if they were on the same kind of theme, etc. I suspect they all were, but thanks to the prosecution they were taken out of context in order to frame them as something else.
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@ jacksonaktak:
Here is the bio about Andre de Dienes:
http://www.josephbellows.com/artists/andre-de-dienes/bio/
No dissertation to follow….
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“You are not alone is from Maxfield Parriish and it’s called Daybreak” – shellywebstere
I know, we’ve discussed it a hundred times. But I was talking about how the idea of ancient Greece could come to Michael’s mind. The idea could be first dropped in by those photos from Gloeden and when it was ripe enough for making a video a concrete scene came from Maxfield Parrish. In any creative process it is usually a chain of associations than eventually brings about the end result.
What is crucial is that Michael collected photography and art books for a purpose. He was using them in his work. These books were the essential part of making videos and a source of visual ideas. Discussing every picture of every artbook that looked suspicios to Sneddon is simply preposterous in these circumstances.
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In addition to the influences already mentioned RE: “Why?” video, I would suggest that Victor Skrebneski. The black and white elements of this very elegant video remind me very much of his work, and some of the old Chanel commercials that I used to see back in the old days:
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You are not alone is from Maxfield Parriish and it’s called Daybreak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daybreak_%28painting%29
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This photo from You are not alone was clearly inspired by ancient Greece (and probably Goedlen’s book):
And here Michael clearly used other photographers’ ideas to show off his nephews and make girls scream about them too (the WHY video):
Their clothes look like some ancient rags. If they wore jeans the effect would be less:
On occasions Michael could be very naughty himself (Blood on the dance floor):
It is not clear who is more Dangerous here – he or the girl:
And this scene from Dangerous was inspired by the “Gynoids” book:
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“All those shelves are covered in various photography equipment”
Lacienega, thank you. Let me also note that the picture was taken after they raid of police, who actually created all this mess.
But I made a conclusion about Michael’s interest in photography not even from the equipment seen here or other people recollections of it. I simply noticed Michael’s skill in photography from the videos he made. Some screenshots from the Why video clearly show his knack for photography. This black and white video was produced and made for his nephews by Michael Jackson:
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@ lacienegasmiles:
I never noticed all the photography equipment in those police raid photos! I wonder if he had a dark room at Neverland?
It is a pity that these revelations did not become known to us before.
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“More about The baron:….” – Sherri
Sherri, we’ve had enough of this baron Wilhelm Von Gloeden. I doubt that any of us are interested in learning more about this person and seeing more of his pictures many of which were published only recently as during Gloeden’s life he sold them into private collections under the counter.
This blog is no place for writing a dissertation about Gloeden. Yes, his followers published a book with some 20 photos styled as scenes from Ancient Greece and yes, this book was found in a cardbox among the other 10,000 books in MJ’s library. But those 20 pictures were the most Michael ever saw.
If Michael had known who Gloeden was he would have never used any of that “ancient Greece” style in his You are not alone video. He knew what they suspected him of and he would have run like mad from this book to never have his name associated with its author.
The very fact that he used some of its motifs proves that Michael had no idea who Gloeden was.
If you are personally interested in Wilhelm Von Gloeden’s life and work I can send you a hundred other links I have also found about this person, but no more pictures from Gloeden will be tolerated here. The photos you are sending us may not have been in MJ’s book at all and we have by far exceeded the 20 pcs limit MJ had. Looking at more and more of Gloeden photos is like popularizing them and imposing them on our readers. This blog is absolutely no place for it.
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@ lacienegasmiles
I remember a photographer said at the end of the 70s that when he and Michael talked about photography he was very surprised about how knowledable Michael was. About the technical aspects, everything. He knew things that only professionals know. He was clearly very interested in photography since he was a teenager.
Yes, I also thought The White Problem in America was interesting. And it was put on a display, I wonder what Sneddon thought about it. LOL.
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I hadn’t noticed all those books before Jacksonaktak, added them to my list with some others I’d missed out:
http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-jacksons-library-favorite-books/?preview=true&preview_id=803&preview_nonce=b405512789
The “White Problem in America” one is especially interesting, and funny to think I don’t recall a single journalist ever once referencing it when they constantly went on and on about his racial issues in 2005.
I was trying to compile some of the artists I know MJ also liked, but that one’s harder to do.
Helena, I know once before you mentioned MJ’s interest in photography I think in relation to these books? If you go through the Neverland raid photos:
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Michael+s+private+parts+9F341Y-oCMfl.jpg
All those shelves are covered in various photography equipment.
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“I think there is a disproportionate focus and emphasis put on these particular books” – jacksonaktak
Hello Suzy and thank you very much for the great comment. You are absolutely right – snatching a couple of books from the ten thousand Michael had and focusing attention on them only is absolutely disproportionate. Talking of them only creates a false impresson of Michael’s library.
Since few of us can imagine what ten thousand of books are I’ve found several pictures of home libraries. This (by my rough estimate) has some 550- 600 books. So Michael’s library should be approximately 17 pictures like this one:
One more picture shows 13 rows of books in one vertical section. There are probably 45 wooden sections all in all (the metal ones are 17 or 18). If each shelf has 10-12 books, then one section holds 150 books. Multiplied by 45 sections it will make 6750 books. So Michael’s library should have had this quantity plus approximately half of it more:
And out of all that quantity we have to talk again and again about a couple of books? About which we are not even sure that Michael saw them? It is simply preposterous.
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More about The baron:
http://5election.com/2010/10/28/wilhelm-von-gloeden-pioneer-of-nude-male-photography/
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http://www.bruceweber.com/#/publications/monographs/1874
About The Chop Suey Club.
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I’ve also thought Gynoids was the inspiration for some things – even perhaps a bit of the HIStory tour outfit.
Re: the girl wearing an outfit like that which seemed inspired from that book, you’re speaking about MJ’s performance of Dangerous in 1999 and you’re right, there is a woman covered with spikes who performs it with him, Jennifer Batten actually said her onstage S&M kind of inspired outfit in HIStory was from something MJ had seen in a book. Michael Bush spoke about how MJ liked to go through books and magazines about anything just to see something that would get their attention to inspire them.
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@acksonaktak.
I am still studying the court documents. I confess that the book, The Glory of de Dienes women quiet escaped my notice. still, it is a mnemonic device, as I noticed that Michael (Nimmer DVD) had a couple of books on uniforms and they were in German. My German is terribly rusty, almost non existent, so I cannot tell you what it said. I will try to pause the screen on that book and add it here for those who are curious. I do think that Michael used the book as inspiration for many of his outfits for stage and various other appearances.
The book, The White Problem, is not part of my r my late parent’s collection ere at the house. I will check it on via Google. thanks for providing that link.
The book by Stephen Birmingham was interesting, as I read his books on the African-American elite ( I have mixed feelings as to how well he did) and the Irish elite. I am interested in reading the one that Michael had in his collection.
A colleague from another forum sent me some of those images that you just posted. Not my thing, but again, given the vastness of Michael’s library and given that he was sent so many books, we cannot account for it being in his collection I need to find the reference in the police documents as to where it was found.
In my exchanges with Mr. Nimmer, he told me that the books that stuck out in Michael’s library were the ones about parenting, magic, and Christianity, among others.
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And if you guys are interested, you can read “The White Problem in America” on Google Books:
http://books.google.hu/books?id=N94DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=the+white+problem+in+america&source=bl&ots=dAyy1pHPkq&sig=lFYPE6vQYhP4peCPGdLJip-w4iA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=s3ZhUc__D8ftsgb0z4GwAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20white%20problem%20in%20america&f=false
There’s also a pic of the Beatles holding up a copy of the issue of the Ebony magazine that was turned into this book later on: http://beatlephotoblog.com/photos/2011/06/17.jpg
It was literally on display at Michael’s place: http://oi45.tinypic.com/vidth.jpg
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@ Sherri
“What WAS interesting about the Nimmer DVD was that there was a monograph by Brooklyn born photographer, Sante D’ Orazio, that had female nudes. Funny how the cops did NOT seize THAT! Nor did they seize the books about Anatomy for artists.”
Yes, I noticed their tendency to put less emphasis on the female nude books. For example, in one of those documents that contained detailed description of what was found in the search it was stated that there was a hard cover book found entitled “The Glory of the DeDienes Women”. It’s about female nudes: http://www.amazon.com/The-Glory-Dienes-Women-Andre/dp/B0007G2OZ6
But I have never seen this book brought up anywhere else. Not in court, not in any motion of the prosecution, nowhere. That was the only one mention of it.
Or I noticed now that the book Going East (of which I attached a video in my post below) contains some female nudity (though it’s main theme is not that). In fact, it even contains some sexual acts involving women. But it was not confiscated. I have the feeling it would have been if those had been men…
The prosecution did confiscate some nude female books, but it seems to me only which they considered more extreme or “sadomasohistic”, as they put it. For example Hajime Sorayama’s “Gynoids” (gynoid means female robot): http://www.hajimesorayama.com/index.html
And while we are at it: this proves that Michael indeed used these books for ideas. This is from Sorayama’s book: http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/129/d8ec4af492754f0086a07c68f5fa74ff/l.jpg
I remember there was a woman dressed like that in one of Michael’s concerts.
Soroyama’s work was described by Sneddon in one of their motions as “extreme sadomasochism and body mutilation”. LOL. Other female nude books, such as Wicked Intentions and Scenes D’Interieur were described by them as “sadomaschistic” as well.
Wicked Intentions: http://www.davenestler.com/Store/Books/1-Wicked-Intentions—the-art-of-Dave-Nestler.html
Scenes D Interieur: http://www.amazon.com/Scenes-D-Interieur-French-Edition/dp/3887690915
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Mesereau said in his opening statement that MJ actually owned something like 1,000,000 books, but then he clarified the next day that most of those were in storage, and of those only a few thousand (I think 10,000?) were in Neverland. It looks like the ones in boxes were the ones to most recently arrive.
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Oh, lacienegasmiles, what a great piece of information you have on this topic! Let me reproduce the list of Michael’s favourite books here:
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@jacksonaktak:
Thanks for this! :-). This photo is from the auction that never happened. I contacted Mr. Julien and he told me that all of the contents of the house at Neverland were in storage. I did see this and was struck that he had several titles in his collection of African American history that I have, and grew up with. He even had some titles that have been on my wish list at Amazon for a long time. As I have said, I have been writing about Michael’s library for the past year or two on other fora. As someone who has a large library myself ( over 1,000 by my best count, perhaps more) I am always fascinated by what other people keep in their libraries. Up until 2007, I worked in the book business via museums, bookstores, and libraries.
I do think that the media was NOT truthful about the stories or facts behind the books that were seized. I too, have been studying the transcripts of the trial. They are fascinating. thanks to all who posted those excerpts that pertained to the books specifically. I had read those passages and it is great to see them in this repository, for those who have not seen them.
What WAS interesting about the Nimmer DVD was that there was a monograph by Brooklyn born photographer, Sante D’ Orazio, that had female nudes. Funny how the cops did NOT seize THAT! Nor did they seize the books about Anatomy for artists. I am grateful that Mr. Nimmer was able to present his film to the jury so the library could be put in proper context.
I will start searching out the Von Gloedon book this week. the sepia toned photographs look interesting.
Tanks again!
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Jacksonaktak has already posted some books from Michael’s library, and I am posting some more. These books and videos were not in cardboard boxes but were on the shelves (the pictures were taken from a documentary about the raid of Neverland by police):
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Dr William Van Valin spoke about how MJ would just receive boxes of books, other people who work at bookstores remember he would come in and just ask for shelves of things, and he’d buy them all and have them taken back to his place, all without looking or really knowing what they were, just that they focused on a topic he liked – art, photography, history, architecture, etc
I’ve also researched some of the books that could be seen visible among some of his things, have been spoken about by him, people who knew him, or can be seen photographed with him:
http://rhythmofthetide.com/category/favorite-things/books-favorite-things-2/
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@ Sherri
You are welcome.
I think there is a disproportionate focus and emphasis put on these particular books, because these were the ones the prosecution confiscated (and of course because haters have an agenda with over-emphasizing them), but Michael had ten thousands of books which these were a very tiny portion of. Like I said most of these were found in big cardboard boxes, along with hundreds of other books. Those other hundreds and thousands of books are not talked about and scrutinized like these ones, simply because they were not confiscated. Because of the disproportionate attention these couple of books are getting some people think they are representative of Michael’s collection and interest, when in fact they aren’t. Michael simply liked art, art photography, art history and history in general. He had thousands of books by many, many artists and authors. When you look at the house search photos there were books and boxes of books virtually everywhere. He even had a book shelf in the bathroom!
(And I very much doubt he read – or even just looked into – them all. There were just so many books!)
If you are interested in what Michael had (and not just the books at the trial), here is another small portion of his collection (I think this was exhibited somewhere):
http://i.imgur.com/N8Fc9.jpg
On the house search photos I also managed to recognize some books those were on his shelves or laying around. These ones:http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Editors-Phaidon-Press/dp/0714836257, http://openlibrary.org/books/OL17756894M/The_white_problem_in_America, http://vimeo.com/38358850
I have seen books by Edgar Allen Poe, several editions of the Guiness Book of World Records, a book about James Cameron. Of course, he had infinately more, it’s just where I managed to make out the titles on the pics.
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@jacksonaktak,
Thank you for your response. As you may have seen in my fist posts, that I am trying to get a copy of The Chop Suey Club, through a friend who knows Bruce Weber and his wife. I also have a bookseller here in N.Y.C. Who sells books about art, architecture, photography and fashion, trying to get me one also.
I am aware of the material you have posted. I knew Mr. Weber’s work for many years as a student of photography. It was this particular book that I have not seen. It is part of my own research about Michael’s vast library and what he read and collected.
I may have mentioned that I live in N.Y.C.
In addition to our many museums and cultural institutions,( I have worked for several) we have a vibrant fashion industry. It is not uncommon for me to walk to work and
see photoshoots. I never saw Mr. Weber, however.
Thank you for responding to me in a civil manner. It is nice when one can exchanging information about this subject.
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This is what was said about it in court on March 15, 2005:
17 Q. All right. Now, this particular book,
18 Mr. Weber, who’s up there, Bruce Weber, The Chop
19 Suey Club, were you aware that Mr. Weber sent this
20 to Mr. Jackson unsolicited.
21 A. No, I’m not.
22 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Weber was a
23 photographer who had photographed The Jackson 5.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Photographed other people, Nelson Mandela
26 and a lot of other people.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Inside that very book, there’s an actual 2184
1 photograph of Elizabeth Taylor; is that correct.
2 A. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at that
3 book, so I couldn’t say for sure.
—–
When I saw pics from that book, I also saw other celebs in it, such as Pamela Anderson.
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@ Sherri
As for Bruce Weber, he was a friend of Michael’s. He’s also a very renowned photographer, who often photographs celebrities – his photos are simply beautiful, in my opinion. He photographed Michael twice – once in the 70s as a teen for Andy Warhol’s Interview magazine, and then in 2007. He also did music videos for Chris Isaak and the Pet Shop Boys. By the way he is married to a woman, if you wondered about his “inclinations”. Here is Weber’s 2007 photoshoot with Michael, along with Weber’s words about their decades long friendship: http://www.vogue.it/en/vogue-black/the-style-of-/2010/03/michael-jackson-video
This is what Weber wrote:
” October 2007. The last photoshoot with the King of Pop by Bruce Weber for L’Uomo Vogue. “I first met Michael Jackson in the late 70s. Andy Warhol asked me to photograph a group of kids called the Jackson Five for Interview Magazine”
They were staying with their tutor while on tour at a hotel in mid-town New York City. Their tutor was an elegant lady – almost like a character out of a George Cukor’s film, The Women. When I started taking the photographs, Michael and his brothers were having a pillow fight, and she was trying to make them behave like gentleman. Michael wasn’t posing; he was only interested in reading the newspaper and looking for his reviews.
That was almost 30 years ago, and since then I’ve had the chance to know his charming sister Janet and shared good friends like Muhammad Ali’s manager Bernie Yuman, the film director Brett Ratner and a lady who is beyond description, Elizabeth Taylor.
For years Michael and I have talked about taking photographs, but it never happened again until now, because our busy lives kept us at different ends of the globe. Luckily this time, we both found ourselves in New York City at the same time. I wanted to photograph Micheal instead of sending him a thank you note explaining all the joys I’ve had listening to him sing and watching him dance. Each of these times were marked as celebration in my crazy life: falling in love, driving my dream car, getting a new dog, photographing my family, or hanging out with a friend over a few beers. If I had to count how many times Michael’s music has given a life to my photographs, that number would be in thousands. Because of the music’s rhythm and soul, I would end up taking so many photographs that I would run out of film and all my cameras would break down.
So Michael, accept my gratitude for you have a big place in a lot of people’s hearts. As they say on the street “Michael’s in the house and lets just do it!” – “Lets just get down and take some pictures and see if we land once again on the moon.”
Bruce Weber
New York City
2007″
And here is Weber’s video for Isaak:
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There are several versions of Taormina, as Helena said (and by several publishers too) and we do not know which one Michael had. The prosecution showed the one that Michael had to Wade Robson in court. Here is the conversation (this book was evidence 599).
10 Q. Look at No. 599, if you would.
11 You can stop.
12 Those are all pictures of boys and men, all
13 nude; is that correct?
14 A. I didn’t see any boys. I saw men.
15 Q. How old do you think is the youngest person
16 you’ve seen in this book so far?
17 A. Maybe 19. 18, 19.
18 Q. Teenaged?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. They’re all about that age or a
21 little bit older; is that right?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Do you think this person is 19?
24 A. 18, 19, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. And in fact, in each one of them,
26 genitalia is prominently displayed; is that correct?
27 A. Yes.
That was all of the discussion of it and then the prosecutor moved on to the next book. The prosecutor himself says that the people in the book were 18, 19 or older…
The book was found in one of those many cardboard boxes those had hunrdeds of books in them (it’s in officer Janet Williams’ testimony on April 19, 2005). It’s not like Michael kept this at his bedside. It was among hundreds of other books and art books which were boxed in cardboard boxes. We cannot be even sure if Michael even saw it or checked it out. In fact, the defense seemed to hint at it that he did not:
12 Q. You don’t know whether those boxes were
13 coming or going or had been sitting there, do you?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. You don’t know whether or not Mr. Jackson
16 had even looked inside those boxes, do you?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Jackson is an artist;
19 is that correct? A performer?
20 A. He’s a performer, yes.
21 Q. And he’s an artist. He writes and composes
22 music and choreographs dance, that sort of thing; is
23 that correct?
24 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as
25 immaterial; lack of foundation.
26 THE COURT: Overruled.
27 You may answer.
28 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Is that correct? 6977
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you saw a tremendous number of books
3 that pertained to that sort of thing, art and dance
4 and entertainment, music, correct?
5 A. I remember seeing books of that nature, yes.
Sometimes Michael went to a bookstore and bought shelves of books without checking out each individual book. Sometimes shops sent him stuff in boxes. He had so many books that I doubt that he meticulously checked out each and every one of them, let alone checking out the background of their authors. He just seemed to have liked rareties and old photography and books about art history and the history of photography.
Also let me tell you that when I once googled this author, a link came up to a museum in my country, where the director of the museum expressed her joy over the fact that they had found some of Von Gloeden’s photos in their vault. She said these photos were very rare and very valuable. She talked about them with enthusiasm. She was obviously talking from an artistic point of view, she was a museum director and an artist, not a p-le. I just want to point out that though Von Gloeden’s person is controversial (and why should Michael have known this?), his photography is seen as legitimate fine art, which is kept by museums and exhibitions around the world. His technique, lightings, compositions are often praised in photography circles.
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“It may well be worth contacting the cort to see if one could possibly obtain copies of the evidence for a fee.”
Sherri, it is up to you. But what does it matter?
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I will order a copy from amazon.com. I found several sellers. Yes, I took note of the three different publishers of the book, while here at work. I have the computer to myself, so it is no trouble.
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“I am going to try to get a used copy of the book. I believe the publisher is Te Neues?”
There were three publishers. Here is my contribution to you too (If you buy a copy please tell us about it in more detail):
September 1985, Heretic Books
Taormina Paperback in English
November 1986, Twelvetrees Pr
Taormina Hardcover in English – First edition (5000 copies)
October 1987, Subterranean Co
Taormina Paperback
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL8746638W/Taormina
P.S. I found one more publisher for this book: “Published October 1st 1998 by Te Neues Publishing Company (first published 1975)”.
This Taormina seems to be a popular subject.
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An addendum: I meant to type, it would’ve interesting to see the copies of the photographs that were in that book, that were used in the trial. It may well be worth contacting the cort to see if one could possibly obtain copies of the evidence for a fee.
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Fair enough. I was also aware that the Baron lived out his days in Sicily because of his lung condition. Yes, ALL of his work was from that town where he resided and yes, we do not know which photos from that vast collection were selected for the book that Michael had. MY point was, the video shows a cross section of the Baron’s work. I do know that the were photographs taken by the D.A. And his acolytes for the trial. It would be ingesting those if is at all possible to see copies of what that book contained before it was destroyed, or, as an alternative, contact the gentleman who wrote the introduction. It requires some further research and diligence; but I do not believe that it will be that difficult.
I am going to try to get a used copy of the book. I cannot imagine them using different photos in each edition. I believe the publisher is Te Neues? Well, they are here in New York City and I have dealt with them before, so perhaps something as simple as an email will get/yield further clarification.
On another note, I too, have spent my break time here at work, going over the photographs and am also aware of vastness of the photographer’s work, and yes, also his cousin who was also referenced in the Wikipedia article that you cited. When I track down the book, and review it, I can opt to sell it if I do not like what I see.
Still though, to restate, again for the record, I submitted the link of the YouTube video so folks can see the photographs, and there was no comment nor was there any subtext on my part that these photos ( within the book or not) made Michael Jackson a p——ile. It is merely a contribution.
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“Again, I posted the video so people here could see what the photos looked like.”
Sherri, over here we are as inquisitive as you are. But we are also trying to be accurate and thorough too. The photos in the video depict Taormina boys but there are 3000 photos in Wilhelm von Gloeden’s collection (part of which were sent to his friends “under the counter”) and we don’t know which of those photos were in the book found in MJ’s home.
“Taormina” had three editions – 1985, 1986 and 1987. The basic book had 32 pages and 20 photos only: http://openlibrary.org/books/OL9888429M/Taormina
The video you posted has at least 57 or 58 photos, so it is obvious that most of these photos were simply NOT there. It would be best if someone could get the book and see it.
Unfortunately we don’t know which year MJ’s copy was – Sneddon’s list does not provide the year. The source I’ve found speaks about 3 editions but it is unclear whether all three of them had the same number of photos. But readers on Amazon say that the book is small:
The video implied that all the pictures provided there are from Taormina, and this may be true, but in the different meaning of the word. The fact is, all Gloeden’s photos are from Taormina, because he lived there all his life since 1876 (he had an estate there) except the WWI 1914-1918 when he as a German had to leave Cicily as a “war enemy”.
In short though all Gloeden’s photos are Taormina photos absolutely not all of them were in that “Taormina” book in MJ’s library.
Which photos were in “his” book we don’t know. Most probably there were nudes too in combination with landscapes, ancient ruins, etc. The photos must have been the best as they were selected by the next generation of photographers out of the thousands Gloeden left (he died in 1931):
These days the whole collection of Gloeden’s photos is available (3000 were original photos and the additional 2000 were copies made by Gloeden himself). Those interested may have a look: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Wilhelm_von_Gloeden%27s_pictures
Now that we see them all and can read some texts about the photographer his inclinations are more than clear to us, and I myself cannot say that I enjoy what I see. However it is important to note that Michael hardly knew anything of the author and did not see or know of this multitude of photos.
His book had a limited number of best photos portraying males in the Greek setting and styled as some ancient scenes. Michael saw what he saw – and not what we see now.
P.S. One of the comments says that the photos in “Taormina” are sepia-toned. This detail shows that “Taormina” was meant to recreate the atmosphere of ancient Greece.
An Amazon reader confirms my guess:
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lynande51,
Thank you for the information you provided concerning the laws here in the United States concerning child abuse. I was completely unaware of them. I have not bought the book yet ad my comments and views were based solely upon the video which I posted here.
Again, I posted the video so people here could see what the photos looked like. I made the contribution in the spirit of intellectual curiosity, and sharing. It is therefore incredible that a link that I posted without any accompanying text or comment would be construed the way it was. Astonishing, indeed. I want to also thank you for informing me that the book was indeed destroyed in the process of fingerprinting it by the police. That was not the only thing they destroyed during that raid and seizure of Michael’s property.
I bought the DVD documentary made by Larry Nimmer of Neverland Ranch. I took careful note of the formal library and the “annex” that had row upon row of books, many of them in boxes. It was revealed during the trial that some of these boxes may never have been opened by Michael and therefore, it is very likely that there were books in them that he was sent and had not seen. And again, he was given several books by fans and photographers, and I dare say artists alike.
It is unlikely that the Arvizos would have any intellectual curiosity about any of the books in Michael’s library, given their behavior at the ranch, based upon my reading of the transcripts.
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Sheri thank you for your information. The book that Michael had was destroyed through the process of fingerprinting it.
.You are right when you say there is no way of knowing how they came to be in Michael’s possession.
Lastly iif you can believe this there were no laws against child sexual abuse and expitation in the USA until the late 1970’s and there was no definition of child pornography until 1984.That of course is not even mentioned in any of our adversaries comments about the book.
It is interesting that you have seen the book. Michael was always searching the classic arts for ideas and inspiration in his videos and music. As you can see in one of the posts about the porn there is a very strong likeness in one of the books to the scene between MJ and Lisa in the video You Are Not Alone. So you have seen a similarity between what is in the Wilhelm Von Gloeden book and the Why photo shoot.
My question is did the book discuss anything about the art of taking a photo back when those photos were taken.
In my opinion Sneddon and company would find the Sistine Chapel erotic if they ever looked at it. To them there is absoultely no such thing as innocent nudity.
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An Addendum:
I would also argue that the photographs in the book could very well have been the inspiration for the “Why” video photo shoot. Were not those photos seized by the police, and was it also true that one of the officers admitted he recognized the young men featured in the photographs as the group 3T, and Michael’s nephews?
I felt you jumped way to fast to jump conclusions about me and my motivations for posting the link. In fact, I have cited your site on other message boards when I started threads discussing Michael;s book collection, a subject that I have been researching for over a year now.
Finally, I agree that we do NOT know how this book came into Michael’s collection. I am still reading the transcripts to see if there is any further information about this particular book and others.
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The purpose of me sending you the video was solely for the purpose of research. It was for all of those people who are curious as to what the photographs were, especially if they had never heard of this photographer.
I have worked as an intern photographer here in my city for the Art Commission, and as an assistant to a photographic appraiser. I never heard of the Baron or this book and wanted to LEARN more about this book. Fortunately, I also have the good fortune of working with someone who was in the business as a photography assistant, who immediately knew of the Baron’s work. Indeed, he also knows Bruce Weber and is trying to get me a copy ( he another bookseller) of The Chop Suey Club, as I am trying to figure what the fuss was all about.
In no way, shape or form, was my sharing this with you all, even remotely a suggestion that I ever believed that Michael Jackson was a p-ile. It was merely offered to you, your colleagues and the readers of this blog as a contribution to the research already presented here.
Finally, we do not know how this book came Into Michael’s collection. There is only one possible reference to it made by Bob Sanger in his LA Times interview after Michael’s death about a book that whose author had been persecuted by the Nazis. My first thought is that it could have been this one.
One another note, I stopped in at Taschen bookstore here in New York to try and see a copy of Bighood. It is out of print. What was interesting was the conversation I had with the staff about the reference to Mr. Taschen in the 2005 trial. This fact, they were completely unaware of, and did not know if Mr. Taschen knew either. In any event, they told me more about the book and its author. It is rewarding to talk to those of us who still are passionate about collecting books, who are fascinated by the collections of others, and in this instance, share their discoveries with fellow researchers. That is ALL I was doing.
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Unfortunately I need to go now and can’t handle this Wilhelm Von Gloeden issue (but will try to get back to it).
All I can say at the moment is that what we learn of some of these authors now was not necessarily disclosed to Michael or anyone at all at that time. The art albums are perfectly legitimate and contain some of the best photographs of the best photograhers, and who these people are only God knows.
Even if the authors had some inclinations no one, including MJ, knew of them. He used photography as ideas for his own videos. For example, the motifs of Von Gloeden’s art are very well seen in his “You are not alone” video. Absolutely the same style.
Police looked through 10,000 books in Michael’s library and came up with a couple of such art books? It is ridiculous to form any opinion of Michael on the basis of it!
Let us take you and me for example. You have sent this video to me (so you’ve seen it) and I have also seen it because you sent it to me (people also constantly sent Michael presents). Does seeing this video make us ped-les?
Then why does anyone think they can form an opinion about MJ if he simply saw Wilhelm’s book? Especially since he needed it for his profession?
P.S. Despite being pressed for time I did look up some basic information about this photographer and realize that the video may have the photos which he sent to friends “under the counter” (he did practice it). The artbooks he published were impeccable and this is what Michael saw:
I can almost see the pictures from “You are not alone” video in these photos.
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From YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uksI0t2mzlw
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“His taste and approach to art is impeccable and exquisite…if police were to review everything I’ve checked out on my library card, or, quite frankly, books offered at a public library, we’d all be walking in shackles… artists NEED inspiration, and a muse”, – SemiRefinedJunkie
That’s the point! Each of us has some books or magazines even in our home library containing pictures that a prosecutor like Tom Sneddon could throw us into jail for. I for one have a book of photos about Africa by two Chezh journalists who travelled there and took pictures of naked people, including boys .
Photographers sent Michael their book as gifts as he was very much into photography. We even have proof that Michael thoroughly studied it. The “WHY” video with 3T where Michael was a producer is simply a textbook on photography. This kind of a marvel could not be made without a great appreciation for photography which Michael surely had – almost each episode in the video is an exquisite still shot. And the black and white color scheme is superb and was surely Michael’s choice. Each episode is in an impeccable style!
I couldn’t help making some shots.
By the way it is all about love for women and an enigma and triumph a woman is:
The video, music, photography are GREAT.
And someone says that Michael did not make anything good after Thriller!
All the four of them are clearly in awe with women.
Poor things – they look so overwhelmed by the power of love that I even feel sorry for them:
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His taste and approach to art is impeccable and exquisite…if police were to review everything I’ve checked out on my library card, or, quite frankly, books offered at a public library, we’d all be walking in shackles…artists NEED inspiration, and a muse. MJ got it from photography and the human condition, his muse being the beautifully defined, Greco-Roman concept of the human body. I’ll bet you none of those police officers were EVER good at art… 😀
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Michael Jackson loved art. Just by looking at the number of art he collected at Neverland is very impressionable. There is nothing wrong in this amazing performer’s life that demand so much scrutiny and media attention besides his amazing music and talent as a songwriter and singer. MJ was ahead of his time the media and journalists did not understand his marketing then now we have ladygaga with the meat dress… and the media are saying she is fashion icon go figure MJ did not have meat clothes just a monkey. American are sometimes perceived as ignorant compared to european and the rest of the world that were not so judgemental. But American are contradictory society.. they produce porn movies and puritanism on the other side. Anyway MJ was passionate of art whether paintings, books or sculpture. May be in another 10 years looking back at it we will say hey what was yesterday:s innovation is a classic today. He transferred his passion of books to his children. Did you watch Paris interview with Oprah, the girl read 27 books in a week (her record). The kids are smart and it takes a smart father to give them that. He was kind and a dedicated father as well as the biggest star to walk this earth. The 20th century was not ready for him. Everyone now is shutting up including the celebrities with their no good spoil brats that are as dysfunctional as their celebrity parents. The kids are well balanced. I regret that MJ did not have the chance to spend more years with them guiding them through life and their ambitions. Moreover now as teenagers they could have had more interaction with MJ and he would have felt less lonely. The truth is coming out after his death that he was truly and genuinely a kind good hearted person that cared about humanity and charitable organisations. Shame on you haters, believing the media as if the media were living in his house to know him as a person. If you type this under youtube Buying Neverland Ranch (Tom Barrack & Rob Lowe). You will hear how Tom Barrack he was an amazingly kind, compassionate, gentle and incredible genius. What every man dream of becoming on top of that very rich. Donald Trump and a lot of his high profile friends who knew him are saying the same thing. Brooke shield said it perfectly: people did not know how to relate to him and his power they had to belittle him in some way. Well in death he had the love of all the entire world and money can’t buy it is god given and he deserves it 10000% all the goods. I have never seen an artist worked so hard for over 40 years.
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Hey guys!
I hate to butt in with this “stonegrooved issue” but I have observed him for quite some time now. I don’t know how this can help but he seems like a fan that was “hurt” or disenchanted by findings he/she couldn’t explain. Just jumped into conclusions. In all fairness to all of those of you there that are studying the MJ story I have two words: Study Hard.
This is a complex issue and one that can’t not be judge with just a coule of documents, books, “porn” or “strange” pics. It will not be address correctly and in its entirety by isolated facts/events. This site does provide excellent working ground for those interested in learning and enjoying the many good things MJ did/was/created/influenced. It attempts to give an honest perspective on the man, accepting his faults and human flaws and using compassion in judging the love and live of this great artist.
It is amazing the extend Mr.Stonegroove goes to continue expressing his opinion. That leads me to think he was indeed a fan sometime in his life.
God bless and great job, Vindicate.
L.O.V.E.
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To all justsayin is the same IP address as Stonegrooved. Nothing more needs to be said.The comment was deleted.we do not need to explain anything we do it is our blog.
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@Justsayin’
I haven’t seen you post here again and i find it strange that you would comment only on that. But to answer your question people here tried to have a civilised debate with that person but it was obvious that that was the last thing that he wanted. People who post here are more than welcome to answer questions and have a debate even with people that have a different opinion regarding Michael Jackson his life and the allegations. But we are not here to be attacked on. We are not a punch line and certainly we will not tolerate to be offended. That person was asked many times to calm himself, to stop calling people names and to have a rational debate. He wouldn’t listen so he was blocked. May i ask you if you would have tolerated this kind of behaviour and having someone calling you stupid and delusional and all kind of things? I believe not. So why do you ask from us to accept this kind of behaviour?
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“Even if MJ didn’t molest those children, his reckless disregard for our cultural norms must not be forgotten”.
Aha, here he is – I mean one of those Puritans who wouldn’t pay attention to sex shops with their doors literally open to children, but would look at every speck of dust at Neverland with a magnifying glass instead.
To set the record straight about the “booze situation in Neverland” let me say that there were rules for those attending Neverland – no cameras and no alcohol. And if the Arvizos were so unruly that no one could cope with them, it wasn’t Michael’s fault – especially since sometimes he wasn’t even there.
This is what Gale Goforth, a supervisor for housekeeping, said in her 2005 testimony about Michael’s private ways (though the prosecution interfered with her every word):
Q. All right. And roughly — let’s put it this
way. When did you see him drink? What occasions 9458
would you see him drink alcohol?
A. At mealtime, dinnertime.
[Many of us do so and no one says a word about it. However Jackson is not allowed what the rest of us are!]
Q. All right. Did you ever see any bottles of
alcohol or other evidence of alcohol strewn about?
Can you explain what you might see?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Okay. So you might see a glass or something
but you wouldn’t see — you wouldn’t see alcohol
just lying around his room?
A. No.
Q. All right. And let me also ask you about
Mr. Jackson and his personal behavior. Would you
say — can you describe his behavior as far as being
outgoing or shy or —
MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as
irrelevant, Your Honor, and vague. 9459
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. Did you have any occasion to observe whether
or not Mr. Jackson would change his clothes in front
of anyone? For instance, if you were in the room
cleaning, would he be changing his clothes in there?
MR. ZONEN: Judge, that’s irrelevant as to
whether he would change his clothes in her presence.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. SANGER: All right.
Q. Were there occasions where you came in and
Mr. Jackson might be in the process of changing his
clothes, changing a shirt or something?
A. No. He was very private.
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“There was not one iota of child porn among them! It was all legal, adult, heterosexual porn that you can buy at any newsstand.”
Of course there was no child port among them!!! This is absolutely out of the question! And not only because if anyone had found it, Michael would have been behind bars the next minute – but also because it was absolutely out of Michael’s character. Even the “porn” magazines found in his home were not all of them porn. They fall into three categories – a collection of nudist archaic magazines, erotic journals like Playboy and several porn magazines. The defense by the way also strongly objected to the word “porn” and insisted on “adult materials” instead.
Again I am surprised by people’s hypocrisy – people talk about it as if they were Puritans! I’ve just been to a family resort and saw sex shops at every corner with doors open inside and all their sex toys being in full view of the public! And this is in spite of children walking by and peering in! Never seen anything like that!
Do the people who scrutinize every page of every magazine from Neverland sometimes look around and notice what’s going on in their streets? Or is it a kind of a sport to condemn only Michael for possessing things which are sold at every newsstand?
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Frankly ,if this trial hadnt done so much damage to an innocent man, it would be laughable, it was so ridiculous…..a bunch of chest thumping macho men coming after the sensitive artist….and his art books , and his buff nephews……LOL….all in the name of protecting children..what a bunch of baloney…you have bashir and his crew edit the film to make it look sinister and flash that kids face and name all over the world,….they knew they didnt have permission to do that , they just didnt care about that kid..bashir just wanted to make a name for himself…..,and MJ is supposed to be the one abusing a child ….bashir,sneddon , feldman,katz and the janet arviso should be looking in the mirror , because they were the ones with no regard for that kid, using him, encouraging him to lie…… for their own purposes……Jackson was vindicated .., he has already won where it counts for the record, in a court of law ,,the only place left is in the general public and that is changing also, thanks to sites like this one,,,, so for me , michael is innocent , it is tom sneddon who is guilty and i think in the long run , if people keep putting out the truth , it will be his reputation in tatters..btw ,so impressed to see mike huckabee speak out for mj..
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The original You Tube site of the person that posts comments under the name of Stonegrooved had a phone number that you could call to talk to them. Oddly enough it was a phone number not only in the same area code as I am but with an address just 20 miles from my own house. It was fascinating to say the least to find such an adament hater as close to me as that. So being the good co-administrator that I am I looked up the IP address and it would seem to be that Stoney moved to Vallejo California. Another interesting coincidence that Desiree’s IP address from time to time will come up with the same location. It has now come down to the haters using other haters names.
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“If you Google sbscpublicaccess . org/docs/ctdocs/052505pltmotchandler . pdf, and open “PDF 13” of the court documents, you’ll find on page 9, Line 29, Item # 309 states that a black leather bag contained pornographic magazines and DVDs. It doesn’t specify what kind of porn it was”
That document may not specify it, but other documents do. It’s clear from those other documents and the trial itself that it was NOT child porn! Otherwise Michael would have charged with the possession of child porn. He was not. The prosecution showed all the porn they found on court. They spent days with showing it. There was not one iota of child porn among them! It was all legal, adult, heterosexual porn that you can buy at any newsstand.
Now, I had to say this for other readers even though I know Stonegrooved is a troll who knows this already, yet keeps on spouting his garbage out of irrational hatred. I feel these type of haters are clinically sick people.
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I’m surprised stonegrooved was stupid enough to use his name on this site. Like Chris said this person looks at all Michael Jackson youtubes and posts his garbage repeatedly.
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@stonegrooved
Ι wonder, do you demostate the same zeal with PROVEN pedophiles of show biz, such as the beloved Elvis Presley or Roman Polanski ,Jerry Lee Lewis etc? Do you spam their videos with hate comments, like you do in Michael Jackon’s case or you simply are just a f**** hypocrite who don’t give a sh** about kids being molested by real criminals but you only have a thing with Jackson? Give me a break you stupid ignorant fool. Am sick of you and people of your kind who can’t get past your personal bias and hate. I bet Jackson was less sinful than you and all of those who critisize his every move so lose the God syndrom. At least he tried to make this fucked up world a bit better. What you and those who think the worst of him have done for the this world huh?Let me guess. Nothing!!! Get out of here.
By the way, your comments demostrate yet again how stupid you and all the rest of those known as “MJ haters” can really be.
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Stonegrooved the youtube hater for those who don’t know has probably had his account erased so many times he has now come on here please do not respond to this fool. I put him in his place along time ago (at the time he was saying he was 100% sure MJ did molest kids looks like he can’t hold his ground so has softened his approach) he left the video I commented on then returned months later with the same old points like a robot spammer.
I’ve seen this site waste so much time on haters in the last year so I tell you now do not waste your breathe.
As for you stonegrooved all I will say is this…
“Even if MJ didn’t molest those children, his reckless disregard for our cultural norms must not be forgotten”…
Yet cultural norms of innocent until proven guilty don’t apply to Michael Jackson.
Take your double standards back to youtube or twitter where they welcome your type.
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I keep hearing, Michael never had “child” porn! I’m supposed to find that reassuring? If you Google sbscpublicaccess . org/docs/ctdocs/052505pltmotchandler . pdf, and open “PDF 13” of the court documents, you’ll find on page 9, Line 29, Item # 309 states that a black leather bag contained pornographic magazines and DVDs. It doesn’t specify what kind of porn it was, it just makes it clear that MJ had drugs; alcohol and porn within reach at a place he was regularly allowing other people’s children to spend the night!
What do I mean by “within reach?” I MEAN THOSE KIDS GOT DRUNK WHILE THEY WERE THERE!!
Any man that can’t ensure that minors can’t get into his booze and porn has no business inviting children to spend the night!!
PERIOD!!
I already know what’s coming next.
“But that jury found him not guilty of providing alcohol to minors!!”
Yep, it was established those kid got drunk there and the only way MJ’s defense team could make it look like it wasn’t MJ’s fault was to say he wasn’t there.
BUT IT WAS HIS PARTY!!
If I invited children to spend the night at MY place and while they were entrusted in my care, they got drunk on MY booze, whom would you find at fault, MY NEIGHBOR??
That shows what a sham that trial was!!
Even if MJ didn’t molest those children, his reckless disregard for our cultural norms must not be forgotten. His lawyers couldn’t deny kids got drunk at Neverland so they made it look like he wasn’t there when it happened. That got him off the hook for Gavin. Luckily he didn’t have to account for all the other kids that got drunk there!
If I invited kids over to spend the night and while they were in my care, they got drunk and I took them to bed with me, whom would you blame, MY NEIGHBOR?
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And here is an article by Bruce Weber about Michael. Bruce Weber is the very famous photograph who made one of the books found in Michael’s possession (The Chop Suey Club). Michael has known Bruce since he was a child! Here is Weber’s article – a foreword to the photo series he made about Michael in 2007. He first photographed him with his brothers when Michael was a child and they were friends!
Weber photographed lots of celebrities, such as Robert Pattinson, Zac Efron, Madonna etc.etc. He also made music videos for the Pet Shop Boys and Chris Isaak. Here is what Zac Efron said about him: “Today’s shoot was very natural. We’re not in a studio, we’re outside. I’m very lucky to work with Bruce. He’s such an icon in the world of photography.”
http://justjared.buzznet.com/2008/09/02/zac-efron-bruce-weber/
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The book from Roy Dean is in the Library of Congress
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL7141947W/Before_the_hand_of_man
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It’s part of the cross examination
” Okay. Would it be, in your opinion, safe to
17 say that there are thousands of books in that
18 library area.
19 A. Several hundred, yes.
20 Q. More than that, right.
21 A. I — I don’t recall right offhand. It was a
22 lot of books in there. I couldn’t tell you if it
23 was several hundred or thousands.
24 Q. Did you count them.
25 A. No, sir.
26 Q. Okay. You also said there were boxes of
27 books around, correct.
28 A. Yes, sir. 2816
1 Q. And did you also say there were bags of
2 books around.
3 A. There were paper bags that had items in it.
4 I don’t recall if they contained books or not.
5 There was also records, records in boxes. I don’t
6 recall what was in the bags especially, sir.
7 Q. And did you go through all the books that
8 you saw in the library area.
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Did you at least try to get a look at the
11 titles of all those books.
12 A. Not all of them, sir.
13 Q. Did you see a lot of books that referred to
14 art.
15 A. I don’t — I don’t remember seeing specific
16 topics of what all of the books would equate to. I
17 mean, there was books on virtually everything in
18 there.
19 Q. And there are a lot of books on photography,
20 correct.
21 A. As I say, I don’t recall specific art,
22 photography, or exact titles, no, sir.
23 Q. But you said — you told the jury, I think,
24 that every subject imaginable was there, right.
25 A. I guess that was just a summation on my
26 part. There was books from — there was numerous
27 books on a lot of different titles.
28 Q. And did you see books on history. 2817
1 A. I can’t tell you exactly that I did. I
2 couldn’t tell you that I didn’t either.
3 Q. Did you see books on theater.
4 A. That would be the same answer. I mean, I
5 saw a lot of books. But I don’t remember exactly
6 what they all were titled or referred to.
7 Q. Did you see books on painting.
8 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
9 object as asked and answered. It’s obvious there is
10 no foundation.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 THE WITNESS: I don’t specifically remember
13 books on painting. But as I said, I could not tell
14 you that there wasn’t books in there on painting.
15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you saw these boxes
16 filled with books, what did you do with those boxes.
17 A. Well, for most — as much time as we had, we
18 went through as many books as absolutely possible.
19 But we could not have gone through all of the books
20 that were in that library area.
21 Q. Did you see a lot of bookcases.
22 A. Case — I don’t know exactly what you mean
23 by “cases,” sir.
24 Q. Well, let me explain. Did you see items of
25 furniture that had shelves of books in those items
26 of furniture.
27 A. That’s what I was referring to when I first
28 said there was rows of books scattered throughout 2818
1 the library. And I would estimate there was six, if
2 not more, rows of books.
3 Q. Okay. And you didn’t go through each row,
4 correct.
5 A. There were three of us searching. Three of
6 us kind of divided up the room. As the supervisor,
7 myself, I went through pretty much each row. I
8 looked at kind of some of the books. I looked at
9 some of the boxes that had books in them. I went
10 through some of the boxes, but I don’t recall that I
11 saw every title of every book in that library. It
12 would have been be virtually impossible. There was
13 just boxes — I could not have opened all the boxes
14 myself and personally look at them.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did somebody open all the
16 boxes.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were there specific instructions that those
19 who were searching the library were to open boxes if
20 they saw any.
21 A. I believe I told them, other investigators
22 that were there, to make sure they looked through
23 the boxes, open them and look through the boxes.
24 Q. Were some of those boxes unopened, as far as
25 you know.
26 A. I — I personally believe they had all been
27 opened and looked at. Whether the investigators
28 reclosed the boxes or not, I don’t know. The boxes 2819
1 that I opened and looked at, I left open.
2 Q. Okay. But there are boxes that you actually
3 opened, true.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There are boxes that appeared to have not
6 been opened before, correct.
7 A. Before I arrived.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you note down where those unopened
11 boxes appeared to have come from.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you notice that a lot of boxes appeared
14 to be sent from foreign countries.
15 A. I did not notice that.
16 Q. Okay. Did you ever make any attempt to note
17 where they appeared to come from, on any report.
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. When you opened unopened boxes and looked
20 through them, did you go through every book in those
21 unopened boxes.
22 A. I can’t say that I went through each book in
23 every box that I opened.
24 Q. Okay. And if you saw a book you wanted to
25 retrieve, you just took it out of the box, right.
26 A. I wouldn’t phrase it that way.
27 Q. Let’s take, for example, an unopened box
28 that you found in the library. 2820
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. You grab the box, right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You look at it, right.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Doesn’t appear to be opened by anybody,
7 right. Right.
8 A. Now, when you say “unopened,” when I talk
9 “unopened,” I mean that the lid was closed. I’m not
10 saying that those boxes were sealed.
11 Q. Were any of the boxes sealed that you saw in
12 the library.
13 A. Not that I recall.
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall ever opening an
15 unsealed box. Pardon me. Let me rephrase that. Do
16 you recall ever opening a sealed box.
17 A. No, sir, I do notnot. Most of the ones that I
18 opened had — the flaps were closed. They were
19 overlaid, and I had to just open up the cardboard
20 top on them.
21 Q. And you were the supervisor of this
22 operation, correct.
23 A. Not of the operation, sir. Just of the
24 library when I was there.
25 Q. Let me rephrase that. You were the
26 supervisor of the search in the library, true.
27 A. Yes, sir.
28 Q. Did you give instructions to the people who 2821
1 were working with you what they should do if they
2 found a box that was sealed.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What were your instructions, if anyone
5 working under you found a box that was sealed.
6 A. To open it.
7 Q. And how were they supposed to open it.
8 A. However they could get the lid open. I
9 don’t recall. Like I say, I don’t recall seeing one
10 that was sealed that had to be opened. I don’t know
11 whether there was tape on it. I don’t know how they
12 had to open it.
13 Q. Okay. But you saw boxes stacked, correct.
14 A. There were boxes stacked everywhere.
15 Q. Okay. How many boxes do you think you saw
16 stacked, if you can estimate.
17 A. Rough, 50.
18 Q. Fifty boxes stacked in the library.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Would you — would it be accurate to
21 describe that library as messy.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did the boxes appear to be stacked in
24 any order.
25 A. No.
26 Q. They just seemed to be everywhere, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you mentioned bags had books in them, 2822
1 right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And typically where were the bags that you
4 found.
5 A. Scattered throughout the library, in with
6 the boxes, et cetera, up against the corners, on top
7 of the boxes.
8 Q. Did you ever see any writing on the bags.
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Ever see any addresses on the bags.
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did you find books that you retrieved in any
13 of those bags.
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Did you find books you retrieved in any of
16 the boxes.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Approximately how many of the books that you
19 retrieved did you find in those boxes.
20 A. I believe there were two removed that I
21 found, and that they were both in boxes.
22 Q. Now, you don’t know when these books were
23 obtained, right.
24 A. By myself.
25 Q. By Mr. Jackson or anyone working for him,
26 right.
27 A. No, I do not.
28 Q. You don’t know who placed those boxes in the 2823
1 library area, correct.
2 A. I do not.
3 Q. You don’t know if Mr. Jackson did it or
4 someone working under him, right.
5 A. I do not.
6 Q. And you certainly don’t know whether Mr.
7 Jackson permanently ever looked at all these books
8 you retrieved, right.
9 A. I do not.
10 Q. And you certainly are not a witness to any
11 child ever looking at them, correct.
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. And you didn’t ask that any of them be
14 fingerprinted, right.
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. And again, the dates you found these boxes
17 was when.
18 A. I believe we were there November 18th.
19 Q. Okay. Were you only there for the search
20 that day.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Have you ever been back since.
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Okay. And as the person who was supervising
25 the search of the library, was there a point person
26 you were supposed to hand any books you retrieved
27 to.
28 A. Yes, sir. 2824
1 Q. Who was that.
2 A. That was Detective Cooley.
3 Q. Was he the only one that books you retrieved
4 were handed to.
5 A. Well, I will clarify that — what happened.
6 Stuff was not arbitrarily handed to Mr. Cooley.
7 When it was located, it was photographed, and then I
8 instructed Mr. Cooley to obtain that item, the book,
9 and take it as evidence.
10 Q. Okay. The books you retrieved did not
11 appear to be illegally obtained, correct.
12 A. No, they did not.
13 Q. Okay. And you don’t know as you sit here
14 today whether the books you retrieved were either
15 purchased or were mailed as gifts, correct.
16 A. I don’t know.
17 Q. Okay. And if they were purchased, you don’t
18 know who purchased them, correct.
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. And you don’t have any idea who even looked
21 at them, if anyone did, right.
22 A. The day that we were there or before.
23 Q. Before you got there.
24 A. I don’t know.
25 Q. Okay. Were any of the books you retrieved
26 in boxes that appeared to be under other boxes.
27 A. That part I don’t recall.
28 Q. Okay. You don’t know one way or the other. 2825
http://www.box.net/shared/09zmi31anq#/shared/09zmi31anq/1/9455516/94501028/1
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I think that testimony should also be added
“MR. SNEDDON: Okay. So, Your Honor, I’d
4 move that 713 and 715 be admitted into evidence.
5 THE COURT: They’re admitted.
6 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, just a
7 housekeeping matter. I did move 105 and 106 in
8 evidence.
9 THE CLERK: (Nods head up and down.)
10 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you, Your Honor.
11 Q. All right. I’m going to place 713 on the
12 board, on the Elmo.
13 All right. That’s the photograph that you
14 identified as being a depiction of the front cover
15 of the item you seized; is that correct.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. And the next exhibit.
18 That one is marked as 715, correct.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And is that the photograph that you
21 identified as being an accurate depiction of the
22 front cover of that magazine that you took.
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 MR. SNEDDON: All right. I think we can
25 have the lights now, Your Honor.
26 Q. Actually, I guess I should probably show
27 those books. Might as well do that and get that
28 over with, and then I have only one more question to 2688
1 ask. Why don’t you hand me those.
2 All right. We’re going to just ask you
3 to — from the three books that are in five — it’s
4 an oversized book, but is that the title of the book
5 that you seized.
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Do you remember why you seized it.
8 A. It depicted male and female nudes. Some, if
9 not — I’m not sure how many, but it would appear
10 that they were adolescent or young in appearance.
11 Q. Okay. And the second book. Doesn’t have a
12 title. But do you remember that book.
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. I’m sorry, I guess it does on the — it’s
15 called “Drew and Jimmy.” Do you recall that.
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. With regard to that book, do you recall why
18 you took that book.
19 A. I recall that it depicted males that were
20 either nude and/or semi-nude.
21 Q. And the last book is called “Room to Play.”
22 Do you recall why you seized that book.
23 A. Because it depicted male and/or female
24 young-appearing individuals that were nude and/or
25 semi-nude.
26 Q. The next one I’m going to show you is from
27 582. It’s in evidence. Do you recall that.
28 A. Yes, I do. 2689
1 Q. And the reason that you took that.
2 A. It depicted males and/or females that looked
3 and/or appeared to be youthful, nude and/or
4 semi-nude.
5 Q. Now, with regard to — do you see the front
6 part of the face on this particular exhibit.
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. 582.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that the condition of the book at the
11 time that you seized it.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And then the last one that’s in People’s
14 583, which is called Cronos.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. For the court reporter, that’s C-r-o-n-o-s.
17 And do you recognize that item.
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And why did you take that.
20 A. It has a multitude of pictures in it showing
21 photographs of individuals from a youthful age to an
22 older age, nude and semi-nude.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 All right. I believe we can have the lights
25 back on, Your Honor.
26 MR. MESEREAU: I thought you were through.
27 MR. SNEDDON: No, almost.
28 All right. The last item that I have with 2690
1 this witness is a large plastic case that we have
2 had marked — and I’ve shown it to counsel — we’ve
3 had marked as 717 for identification purposes, and
4 has on the front of it a white sheet of paper with
5 the Item No. 1009 for tracking purposes.
6 Q. Now, Detective Abel, I’ve handed you the
7 Exhibit 717, the black case.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Are you familiar with that.
10 A. Yes, I am.
11 Q. And where was that item the first time that
12 you saw it.
13 A. It was in what I’d describe as a closet
14 area, closet/storage area of the main — or Mr.
15 Jackson’s museum or office.
16 Q. And with regard to that particular item, was
17 it open or closed at the time that you took it. I’m
18 sorry, I want to rephrase that. Was it open or
19 closed at the time you first saw it.
20 A. Closed.
http://www.box.net/shared/09zmi31anq#/shared/09zmi31anq/1/9455516/94500990/1
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I think it should be added to the porn article
“CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. MESEREAU:
11 Q. Mr. O’Grady, you seized a book titled
12 “Bidgood,” and the name is “Taschen” at the bottom;
13 is that correct.
14 A. Yes, that’s correct.
15 Q. And do you know where that book came from.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know that Mr. Taschen is a German
18 photographer who was going to photograph the Jackson
19 family.
20 A. I have no idea, no.
21 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Taschen sent this to
22 Mr. Jackson.
23 A. No, I do not.
24 Q. And that’s Peter Pan on the cover, correct.
25 A. I don’t know. It looks like a person
26 playing a pan flute. Could be like a mythological
27 person or something.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. No further questions. 2
MJ never bought it, it was a gift.
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this is another wonderful article!
–
the truth (I think)wanted to tell us that Michael was…. how sad that he/she didn’t understand that that ones are simple “common laws” for a “typical” pedophiles, but that doesn’t mean Michael was of them
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Hey everyone,
Here is the audio of Mary Fisher’s interview with Greta Van Sustren from November 2003. I’m still working on finding the video, but in the meantime this will suffice!
[audio src="http://www.mjeol.com/audiocase/GretaVanSustren_MaryFischer_11-25-03.mp3" /]
And speaking of videos, have you guys watched the 2005 Harvard Law Seminar with Mesereau yet? It’s listed under the “blogroll links”. Are any of you guys having problems downloading it?
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“PFOFILE OF A P…LE, HOW THEY ENTICE and ENSNARE, GROOMING THEIR TARGETS, ETC.”
The Truth, you are evidently campaigning for the need to raise public awareness about some criminals endangering children – thank you for your concern about our well-being.
Since you are one of the activists in this field may I suggest you raise public awareness about the deeds of a convicted pedophile Thomas O’Carroll who is expressing his views quite openly in a book published recently? And the deeds of those professors who recommended the book for everyone to read and reconsider their views on this subject? One of the professors has even written a manuscript called “The culture of child molesting” (a manual for ped..lies?) and please mind it that he, as a university professor, is the one who is molding the minds of a younger generation… See here please: https://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/meet-the-guys-who-recommend-carl-toms-book/
The only thing I didn’t understand is why you selected this blog and this thread for your educational campaign. Are we discussing ped…lia here? Or is there anyone around here who is in any way connected with it?
May I assure that we are so far from this subject that we don’t even use the word here. And if you would like to continue our education in this respect please try not to use this word on this forum either – some words and things are just not allowed here.
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@The Truth
Again can you,please,tell us what is your point? If you have one
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And the point is?
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PROFILE OF A PEDOPHILE:
Child sex offenders don’t stand out and don’t usually appear scary or weird.
A child would not normally become afraid when meeting one. They are
often someone the child knows; a neighbor, relative, family friend; or
someone in a position of authority; i.e. minister, healthcare worker,
teacher, coach, leader of children’s activities. Most pedophiles are males.
Pedophiles come from all social classes and all walks of life. They may be
young or old; male or female. Their intelligence varies. Most sex offenders
are not psychotic or crazy. Their common feature is an abnormal sexual
interest in children, although they may not desire children exclusively.
About 50% are married and some are also attracted to other age-appropriate
adults. Many pedophiles begin with fantasizing and progress to “acting out.”
Wondering if they can make their fantasies come true in real life, they begin
to experiment. Their attempts may meet varied degrees of success. Sexual
gratification, with the intoxicating feeling of being powerful and in total
control adds a new high to their disturbed world, along with a heightened
appetite for more.
HOW THEY ENTICE and ENSNARE:
Some volunteer their services to groups serving youth. Often, they relate
well to children, easily gaining their trust and friendship and may also
befriend their parents. Children have an insatiable need for care and
attention and pedophiles use it to abuse them. They are masters at verbal
manipulation. Most offences against children are premeditated and it is rare
that a pedophilic offender spontaneously molests a child.
GROOMING THEIR TARGETS:
When hunting prospective children to abuse, they tend to choose vulnerable
children; i.e. those from divorced homes and children who are emotionally
needy or unhappy; the quiet ones. They also target children from certain
types of families; i.e. single parents, homes where parents are often absent, and who are less educated.
First, they usually test the child’s ability to keep secrets and reward them
for doing so. They subtly grow closer to the child. They may attempt to
change the way the child views his parents; i.e. as infringing on the child’s
personal freedom. They may give the child liberties his parents would not
approve of; i.e. smoking, drinking, watching pornography. They attempt to
create a mental environment where the child sees the pedophile as the
person who trusts and cares for him the most. The grooming process may
take up to a year.
Doing things his parents would not approve of virtually insures that the
victim will not go home and tell, enabling the pedophile to feel safe in
acting out his fantasies. This keeps the victim captive to the pedophile’s
sick desires, and leads to the initial undressing and fondling attack. Once
the child voluntarily engages in oral sex (usually for a bribe), s/he will most
likely be in a position where telling is almost impossible. When the child
can’t tell without incriminating himself, he often gives up any resistance,
his spirit is broken, and he becomes mentally resigned to doing whatever his
pedophile friend asks. Some learn to disassociate themselves from the
“crazy acts” his pedophile “friend” wants him to do. Some abusers are liars,
angry and physically abusive…so that the children are controlled by the
anger and the pain of physical abuse. Some photograph the children and
may market the photos.
PEDOPHILE’S GENERAL CHACTERISTICS:
• experience feelings of inferiority, isolation, loneliness, low selfesteem
and emotional immaturity.
• their attraction to children usually began when they were
adolescents, but may develop later in life.
• are impulsive, have difficulty controlling their behavior and
resisting their urges.
• have poor communication skills, lack empathy, may be socially
retarded; have difficulty forming close relationships.
• feel they are inherently “different,” by fate, default or
circumstances out of their control and responsibility.
• maintain a façade or “front” for the world to see; divide the world
into me and them.
JUSTIFYING THEIR ACTIONS:
They live in a distorted mental world. Most pedophiles view their actions as
being totally involuntary–something over which they exercise no control.
They cling to this self-serving concept because it allows them to continue their acts and still view themselves as an unwilling participant in the process; something they are forced to endure. By seeing themselves as being victimized, they are able to justify not setting any personal limits on themselves, which allows them to do anything they want without feeling
guilty or responsible. They manipulate the facts and use their delusions as permission or justification to do what they want to do. Some distorted reasoning they use:
• That the behavior is not harmful or is less serious than claimed.
• That the child was sexually provocative and encouraged/initiated
the act
• That they are being helpful to the child and are contributing to the
child’s development
• That the acts had educational value
• That they are teaching the child about the “facts of life” or “love”
• That the child enjoyed the acts or attention
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@ ares I removed the post from The Truth based on Rule 2. It is from the site that enhances the book All That Glitters and is used without reference as to the writer in support of their theory.
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@ The Truth
And ?? I don’t get your point. What do you mean by your post?
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David, thank you very much. The reason I was looking for it because there used to be a myth circulated by haters that Mary A. Fischer later retracted her article. Which is quite clearly NOT the case based on this interview.
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@ Suzy
Here is Mary Fischer’s interview and analysis of it by MJEOL!
Interview Transcript (by the way, I skimmed through this blog, and it’s very good! You should add it to your list of favorites)
Interview Analysis
http://site2.mjeol.com/mjeol-bullet/fischer-no-corroborating-evidence-and-sodium-amytal-used-in-93-bullet-122.html
Also, in case you didn’t read it when I first posted it, here’s Geraldine Hughes’ 2004 interview with Bill O’Reilly. Notice how SYMPATHETIC he was to Evan Chandler, how he exhibited a “guilty until proven innocent” mentality (as if Hughes could exonerate MJ in 5 minutes!), and how he tried to imply that MJ paid “hush money”.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,110184,00.html
@ Helena
Check your email! I’ve sent you some emails over the last few days that you’ll find very interesting. For example, one of them is from 1993 where Oprah Winfrey interviews some of MJ’s friends before she interviewed MJ. One of his guests was a young girl and her parents (who of course fully approved of their friendship). This debunks the rumor that MJ only befriended young boys. She also interviews Ryan White’s mom as well!
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@ lynande51
I didn’t find it there.
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Dear Helena and all the followers here:
First I have to apologize because I never read the comments in this wonderful blog, but it’s too long for me. Particularly not being English speaker, so I have to read with the dictionary.
I just read some comments in this page and I saw some “Desiree”. What is she doing here, offending Michael and you this way?
I have seen so far that the haters have some kind of perverse pleasure to bring Michael down.
I’m sure that people who insist saying Michael was a “p…” (I can’t repeat that word) is because they are or they would like to be a pervert.
Pure minded people can not even talk about it, like you Helena, me and I guess everybody here except that Desiree.
I know you are investigating not because you enjoy the matter but “despite” it you go girl to show the world the truth. And you have no idea how much I admire you for your job.
I know how hard it’s for you as it would be for me.
This is the big difference between you and any hater. They enjoy trying to prove you are wrong. What they have inside is much deeper than Michael honor, they have no honor, no respect for themself. They just have bad spirit and this is very difficult to change.
Who knows… may be some day they learn. Hope they don’t bother you too much.
Love you friend.
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Do they have that on the Reflections site?
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A question: Was it here that somebody gave a link to an interview that Mary Fischer gave in 2004. I’m looking for that interview, can you guys help?
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I’ve just found out that the link to the list of what was ‘seized’ in Neverland was not working (now it is corrected).
I am not imposing it on anyone but when you look through all those ‘items’ – odd socks, underwear of different sizes left behind by numerous guests, business papers, postcards from fans, loose slips of paper, magazines, books, etc. – the whole thing becomes simply ridiculous, especially if you know what stands behind the titles of those books and sinister remarks from the police officer who made the review.
Now I can understand the members of the jury who said that their closet was crammed with ‘evidence’ but the more ‘facts’ the prosecution presented the more disappointed the jurors were.
The full list is here:
Click to access 060804sdcontsheet.pdf
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Ok, now I’m starting to giggle…provocative poses???…yeah they are…they’re publicity shots…I’ve seen more provocative poses in commercials for new cars…okay now you are just making fun of public servants.
Okay (((yawn)))) when are we going to get to the really juicy stuff? Was he a boob man? Legs? Butt? What? Bored minds want to know.
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If you lilke Why you should listen to Tease Me.
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In 1993 there was never any mention of a search for forensic evidence taken for DNA at any time from either Chandler home, The Century City condo, Havenhurst, Neverland or any of the hotels around the world. They didn’t take apart the mattresses in any of the hotel rooms that they stayed at and the DNA would have been there even years later. And yes there was DNA back then. What they did do was take Katherine Jacksons hypertension medication and an awful lot of books and magazines that mean nothing when you look at the percentages of the ones they say are wrong to the sheer number of books. They also spent valuable tax dollars flying to places like the Philippines and Australia in search of “victims” and “eyewitnesses”.
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I can’t believe how the police are projecting their image of him onto these books and photos. Especially, the photos from the 3t photo shoot . Saying they COULD have been used for “grooming.” There is no evidence to suggest that they were, but they could have been. It’s ridiculous! This has to be illegal. In the US, you can’t raid someone’s home because things found there could have been used in connection to a crime. The police have to know or have reason to believe that they were. They’re just assuming. Putting their own disturbing twists on things to suit their pre-formed beliefs.
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How about if we hear from one of Michael Jackson’s lawyers about his client’s reading taste. Here is what Bob Sanger, who was one of the 3 lawyers who represented him in the 2005 case, had to say:
“He loved to read. He had over 10,000 books at his house. And I know that because – and I hate to keep referring to the case, because I don’t want the case – the case should not define him. But one of the things that we learned – the DA went through his entire library and found, for instance, a German art book from 1930-something. And it turned out that the guy who was the artist behind the book had been prosecuted by the Nazis. Nobody knew that, but then the cops get up there and say, ‘We found this book with pictures of nude people in it.’ But it was art, with a lot of text. It was art. And they found some other things, a briefcase that didn’t belong to him that had some Playboys in it or something. But they went through the guy’s entire house, 10,000 books. And it caused us to do the same thing, and look at it.
And there were places that he liked to sit, and you could see the books with his bookmarks in it, with notes and everything in it where he liked to sit and read. And I can tell you from talking to him that he had a very – especially for someone who was self-taught, as it were, and had his own reading list – he was very well-read. And I don’t want to say that I’m well-read, but I’ve certainly read a lot, let’s put it that way, and I enjoy philosophy and history and everything myself, and it was very nice to talk to him, because he was very intellectual, and he liked to talk about those things. But he didn’t flaunt it, and it was very seldom that he would initiate the conversation like that, but if you got into a conversation like that with him, he was there.”
This is as close to the source that you can get. Here is the link to the entire article.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/michael-jackson-lawyer-bob-san/
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One of the 2005 prosecutors, Ron Zonen was with the FBI agent talking to Jordan so naturally he would have told him he was the 1993 “victim” because according to them that is what he was.
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Hi everyone:
Re the FBI files, “Victim indicates that he has no intention of testifying against Jackson”. The FBI have their nerve – “Victim” should read “Accuser”. The only “victim” in this mess was Michael Jackson.
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Thank you, Helena!
Now, what are the chances that a “p” with 16 computers would have ZERO child porn and ZERO traces to child porn/”boy-man love” websites on any of his hard drives? I think that chance is close to ZERO. After all we are talking about a man who, according to haters, couldn’t help himself around children – even to the extent that he needed to ask a doctor to give him something to repress his desires for little boys. At the same breath they want to tell us that he was so disciplined that, although he was a “p”, he never ever used his computers to look at such websites? Wow!
(And it’s not like he didn’t use his computers to look at pornography. But ALL legal.)
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Here is more about those FBI files: http://www.ktradionetwork.com/2009/12/23/fbi-leaked-information-in-michael-jackson-child-molestation-probes/
December 23, 2009
ABC News
By Lee Ferran and Eileen Murphy
A lawyer for the Michael Jackson family said that the now public but heavily redacted FBI file on the late pop superstar shows that “there’s not one scrap of evidence” that Michael Jackson ever harmed a child.
“In all these pages, hundreds of pages, many many hours of investigations … there’s not one scrap of evidence that Michael Jackson ever … did anything wrong, committed any crime,” said Brian Oxman, who represented several members of the Jackson family.“ It’s almost a vindication, when you look at this. The FBI looked at all of these matters and said, ‘There’s nothing here.’”
Oxman said the sheer scope of the documents — 333 pages out of the 673-page file were made public — came as a shock to the Jackson family (BTW same as to Thomas Mesereau who didn’t know of the files either).
Oxman said he knew the file existed but “had no idea” the FBI had investigated Jackson’s home computers in search of child pornography as the documents state.
According to one of the FBI agents involved in the Jackson investigation, the bureau was brought in at the request of local police.
We have the international and interstate capabilities that local law enforcement and local DAs don’t have,” agent James Clemente told “Good Morning America.”
One major revelation in the more than 300 pages of government documents was that the FBI had assisted Santa Barbara, Calif., officials in their attempt to get cooperation from a person who could have been a key witness in the 2005 child molestation case against Michael Jackson: the boy who accused the pop star of molesting him in 1993.
No criminal charges were ever filed in the 1993 case. Instead, the then 12-year-old boy refused to cooperate with officials and accepted a multi-million dollar settlement from Jackson.
The documents released Tuesday under the Freedom of Information Act show that the FBI and Santa Barbara officials met in 2004 with Jackson’s 1993 accuser but were unsuccessful in getting his cooperation.
“Victim indicates that he has no interest in testifying against Jackson,” according to the documents, “and would legally fight any attempt to do so.”
Prior to the FBI’s interview with the accuser, the documents show that the FBI helped Santa Barbara prosecutors with “interview strategies for a victim who alleged that Michael Jackson had abused him in 1993.”
The documents also quote the boy as saying that he “believed that he had done his part,” presumably referring to his initial involvement with law enforcement before agreeing to a civil settlement with Jackson that is believed to be $20 million.
During the 2005 trial it was known that the FBI’s behavioral and forensics units had consulted on the case, but the file released Tuesday reveals that various arms of the FBI assisted the Santa Barbara district attorney’s office.
They included the crimes against children unit (CACU), innocent images national initiative against children unit, computer analysis response team (CART), the FBI lab, Los Angeles NCAVC coordinator and the Department of Justice’s child exploitation and obscenity section (CEO’s).
The FBI examined Jackson’s motor vehicle records to see if he “transported a minor across state lines for immoral purposes.” The agency went to London and Manila to investigate other accusations that Jackson had engaged in improper behavior with boys.
Before the 2005 trial, the FBI and DA also met to discuss “the collection of sexually explicit images in magazine and books” and a VHS videotape that the FBI analyzed as part of a child pornography investigation.
Also within the documents is a lot of material pertaining to threats made by Frank Paul Jones, who was convicted in 1993 of stalking Janet Jackson and threatening to commit mass murder at a Michael Jackson concert.
In one letter, dated May 21, 1992, Jones threatened to kill Michael Jackson if “I don’t get my money.”
Jones copied the FBI and the late mob boss John Gotti on the letter. He also threatened to kill President George H.W. Bush.
On July 16, 1992 Jones threatened in another letter to “commit mass murder” at a Michael Jackson concert, if necessary, in an attempt to kill Jackson.
* * *
All the FBI files here: http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/jackson_michael.htm
The FBI release consists of seven separate files, as described below:
9A-LA-142276: 1992 to 1993, 196 pages
This file details a Los Angeles field office investigation into extortion threats against Michael Jackson and others in 1992. The subject of this investigation pled guilty and was sentenced to prison in 1993.
62D-LA-162715: September 16, 1993 to August 8, 1994, 56 pages
This file involves a Los Angeles field office investigation opened to assist local authorities with a child molestation case in 1993. The case never went to trial.
62D-L0-11779: September 2, 1993 to October 22, 1993, 9 pages
This file was opened by the FBI’s legal attaché office in London when it assisted local authorities with a child molestation investigation in 1993.
95A-HQ-1148159: October 30, 1995 to January 24, 1997, 8 pages
This file details a request made to the FBI to analyze a VHS videotape provided by the U.S. Customs Service as part of a child pornography investigation.
62D-LA-236081: January 15, 2004 to April 27, 2004, 41 pages
Our Los Angeles field office opened this file when it was asked by local authorities to provide forensic computer analysis assistance in a child molestation investigation in 2004. The examination of evidence in this case was conducted by the FBI’s Computer Analysis and Response Team (CART). Mr. Jackson was ultimately acquitted of these charges in a California court.
305B-LA-239205: September 14, 2004 to December 9, 2004, 5 pages
This Los Angeles field office file was opened in 2004 to investigate child molestation allegations. Due to lack of witness cooperation, the case was closed.
252B-IR-6808: March 1, 2004 to June 29, 2005, 18 pages
This file involves a request made of the FBI’s Critical Incident Response Group to provide advice and assistance to local authorities concerning a child molestation investigation in 2004
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Here is the link to the FBI file which says that 16 computers were analyzed:
Click to access 62d-la-236081.PDF
Item 908 1GB 4 -PB 1400c laptop from bedroom/office
Item 909 30 GB Apple PBG4 laptop from office
Item910A 60 GB Apple PBG4 from office
Item910B 80 GB Apple PBG4 from office
Item912A 80 GB Apple PBG4 from office
Item 329 30 GB Apple laptop with projector from suitcase from stairwell closet
Item 336 60 GB Apple eMac from master den floor area
Item 342 60 GB iMac from MJJ office desk
Item347A 40 GB 2-PBG4fromMJJ bedroom
Item644 60 GB Apple PB4G4 laptop from upstairs video library bathroom
Item 645 40 GB Apple laptop from upstairs video library bathroom
Item911 30 GB Apple PBG4 from office
Item347B 20 GB 2-PBG4fromMJJ bedroom
Item912B 80 GB Apple PBG4 from office
Item 308 8GB 3-laptop from locked closet in master bedroom
Item 346 2GB 1-PBG3 laptop from MJJ bedroom
All of the above said “NOTHING” as to any illegal materials concerning children.
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It’s been a long time since I have read the FBI files but if my memory serves me right they checked all the hard drives several times! I’m totally certain they checked the earsed data as well! It wouldn’t make sense if they haven’t while they were doing such a thorough search. To me it speaks volumes that they have found nothing.
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“Helena, maybe you should change the title of these “porn” threads, because, as it turned out, it’s not porn at all that we are talking about”.
Yes, you are right – now the word is in inverted commas. There will be only one book (by Larry Stevens “Man: A sexual study of man” which I can’t find anywhere) that will probably qualify for the word. As to Playboy and things like that – these are just erotic magazines, not even porn.
Thanks for the link to the list of what they found in Michael’s possession. There was never any ‘child porn’ there. When a question about child porn is asked by someone the usual answer given is that keeping such materials is a federal offence and if it had been there he would have been immediately arrested (no ‘molestation’ witnesses were required for that). And this is an absolutely correct – though INDIRECT – answer.
But in addition to it there is one more answer – a DIRECT one. If you look up the overall police list (which the post starts with) you’ll see that the police officer leaves his resolution after EACH item on the list which might have any bearing on children:
“NONE OF THE BOOKS AND MAGAZINES CONTAINED PICTURES THAT DEPICTED ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES, SUCH AS CHILD PORNOGRAPHY”.
If you add to the above that the FBI agents found NOTHING illegal in the computers seized in Neverland in 2003 and wrote about it in their reports you will get the complete picture. I’ve read that the FBI agents even used methods allowing to retrieve the materials that could have been erased. And yet they found nothing.
So the verdict is final and binding upon everyone who wants to discuss this issue: THERE WAS NEVER ANY CHILD PORNOGRAPHY IN MICHAEL JACKSON’S BELONGINGS.
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Before somebody misinterprets it: the so called “teen” websites are all legal and heterosexual (“girlie”) websites. In pornography they call 18-20 year old looking girls “teens”. So we are not talking about 12-14 year old looking girls or boys here, that’s important to point out. Michael obviously had a taste in young, 18-20 year old girls (the Barely Legal magazines feature them too) – as do many men in this world.
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Helena, maybe you should change the title of these “porn” threads, because, as it turned out, it’s not porn at all that we are talking about.
About the real pornographic material they found in his possession you can read here: http://lacienegasmiled.wordpress.com/category/2005-court-case/porn/
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Suzy: “The common thing in all these books are that they are photography art books from the 50s, 60s, 70s or earlier. The nudist magazines were also old school magazines – from the 30s if I remember correctly.”
Yes, the nudist “Sunshine and health” magazines were all dated 1936-1937 and we will need to talk about them too in the next part (last, I hope). And since these books and magazines are that old you can imagine that their ‘obscenty level’ was much lower than anything which is published now.
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BTW, Michael was always interested in photography. He had photography as his hobby since he was a teenager – it’s often mentioned in articles about him when he was about 18-20. So yes, his interest in these books more than likely was professional.
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The common thing in all these books are that they are photography art books from the 50s, 60s, 70s or earlier. The nudist magazines were also old school magazines – from the 30s if I remember corretly.
Sometimes haters claim that Michael had that big hetero porn collection for artistic purposes, while they seem to believe these art books are to feed his sexual interest. Graphic porn magazines as “art” and artistic photograpy as “porn”? How twisted their logic can be? LOL.
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