Joy Robson vs. Victor Gutierrez. The truth against lies
Lynette has sent me some scanned pages from Victor Gutierrez’s book (which carries a title so awful that I can’t repeat it here), but I think you know what book I am talking about so let me shorten it to just Michael Jackson was My L. Gutierrez’s work impressed me so much that I decided to send you a word about it from my vacation.
Firstly, I am greatly surprised to see that the book looks much more respectable than I expected from the drawings it is associated with. So its primary aim is to produce the impression of a serious study? I see… Well, frankly, if I hadn’t come that long way in studying Michael’s “matters” I could have bought it as true. But I did go a long way and know a couple of things now and one of the things that helped me a lot was the trial in 2005. While reading those pages I kept repeating myself “Thank God that there was a trial in 2005!”
I know that remembering the 2005 trial as a blessing is almost an insult to Michael Jackson but Gutierrez’s book is so full of heart-wrenching near-truth stories that if it hadn’t been for the testimonies of various witnesses at the 2005 trial completely refuting those stories they could have gone down into history unverified and would have kept fooling those who were taken in by the misfortunes of Michael’s poor “victims”.
Take the sad story of peniless Joy Robson and her son Wade Robson (now a successful choreographer) for example.
When the muse of invention visited VG and he created his fantasy about the Robsons family he couldn’t possibly envisage that one day his readers would hear Joy Robson’s true account of the same events at the 2005 trial and would be able to compare the author’s words with the real thing.
Oh My Lord, your deeds are full of wonder…
Before you check up Joy Robson’s testimony with what Victor Gutierrez made of her words I must share with you my suspicion though – I think he probably did talk to her. The peculiarity of VG’s narration is that the general outline of the events described in the book does resemble the truth – which is what it makes it so misleading.
When you really know the facts Victor is describing his recipe of lies becomes clear enough – he takes someone else’s story, mixes it up with some credible dates and locations, sprinkles it with some true emotions and adds to the mix a good barrel of dirty pedophilic interpretations of his own. And the worse the basic story is the worse the end result is – so if the original story comes from Evan Chandler you can bet it that it will be the most venomous part of the book as Evan’s worst suspicions will be multiplied by Victor’s dirtiest ’embellishments’. However if the basic story is that by Joy Robson the narration will be relatively “clean” (without stained sheets or whatever).
To be able to break through the jungles of the book’s twisted facts, crazy details and the author’s pedophilic sick comments (whom I now strongly suspect of being a p-le) the reader should be a really thorough researcher of both 1993 and 2005 events – which is a relatively rare occurrence even among Michael’s fans. The fans are too disgusted to dig into all this dirt while Michael’s detractors don’t need any facts whatsoever – they are ready to swallow every lie without asking. And this is exactly that narrow gap into which the author sneaks in – he hopes no one will ever check what he has written.
Well, we have checked and after reading this shit (in the literal meaning of this word as the words feces, excrements and stained underwear are as common here as in a hospital laundry report) I really feel sorry for both Lynette and me. Now I know why others are so disgusted to dig into this dirt – this sanitation work is truly sickening and now will require some purification on our part. (Lynette, don’t we need meditation and prayers to purify ourselves?)
Wishing to spare you the real dirt of other parts of the book, I’ll present here a relatively “clean” story from Victor Gutierrez about Joy Robson and her son Wade. This soap opera comes here as it is related by Victor Gutierrez (slightly abridged) – so you are welcome to shed a tear or two over the struggles of poor Wade Robson doomed to misery, neglect and homelessness due to Michael Jackson’s callousness and his rage with some questions from Wade’s mother:
The story of the minor Wade Robson predated by investigation of the relationship between Jordie and Jackson and was one that I will never forget. It fueled my incentive to write this book.
On a summer’s day in June 1992, I went with a friend to Venice Beach, California. (so a year before the Chandlers ever met Michael Jackson Victor was working on a book?).
[ ] While we were walking, my friend, who knew all about my investigation for the book about Jackson, pointed out a boy who was imitating Jackson. He was dancing to music from his radio. The song was “Black or White” from the album “Dangerous”, and the boy was dancing so well that he looked like a miniature version of Jackson.
As we got a bit closer, I realized that it was Wade Robson, the nine year old boy from Australia who was one of Jackson’s “little friends”. I couldn’t believe it. I had been looking for this boy and his mother for more than five months without any luck and here, by chance, I found both of them. It was a great opportunity to interview them (so Victor Gutierrez started looking for him half a year before their chance meeting, which takes us to January 1992 or December 1991 – the offensive was a well-prepared one, wasn’t it? ).
 As I approached Joy, Wade ran up to her and said that he had only got three dollars from his latest performance. He took two one dollar bills and some coins out of his hat.
I introduced myself to the mother saying that I was a journalist and that I was writing a book about Jackson which concerned his relationship with minors, including his being a p-le. (Victor was so sure of it that he opened a conversation with each and everybody by informing them of his fantasies as if they were established fact?)
 Suddenly, she said that she did not want to speak about Jackson because it was not allowed. When I asked what she meant, she explained to me that she signed a contract, together with her son, which stipulated that she couldn’t speak of what she had seen, said, or heard concerning Jackson. I knew that such contracts were very common for Jackson’s employees and friends. (the first time I hear about friends?)
When I explained that I was not from a tabloid or newspaper, (and where are you from, Victor? Pedophile circles?) Joy asked me what I wanted to speak about. I told her that the basic idea of the book was to speak about Jackson’s friendship with minors, and to listen to all sides and versions regarding this issue. When I finished speaking Joy exclaimed “It’s not true!”.
I told her that the truth was going to come out one day. I asked her to at least let me explain what I had found out up until now, and then ask her if there was anything that she wanted to add. If not, I would understand.
She silently listened as I told her about the cases involving other young boys and about the several statements made in Hollywood about Jackson’s sexual preferences for boys (just some dirty gossip). I gave details about how he went about persuading minors. (as if Victor Gutierrez knew them).
 Now that she knew the details of my investigation, Joy sat down on the grass and began to confide in me. Wade was reading a magazine, but was close enough to hear his mother’s story. She expressed her amazement at hearing that other minors had experienced the same story.
“My son was born September 17th, 1982 and we lived in Chatswood Hills, Australia. When my son was five, (1987) he won a dance contest in Australia. The prize was to meet Michael Jackson and go to Disneyland. And so we met him in Australia.
Right away, Michael gave Wade presents and gave us a fax machine so that they could communicate better. The trip to Disneyland would come four years later.
We arrived in the United States in September 1991. On the first day, by husband took Wade to the recording studio to meet Michael. When they met, Michael asked if he could leave Wade with him and he would drop him off later in the afternoon. My husband said it was okay. Michael, though, didn’t bring him back as promised, and I began to call his office like crazy so that I could locate Wade. Finally, one of the secretaries was able to locate Michael and called me at the hotel to say that Wade was okay. I didn’t see my son until the next day. That was my welcoming to the United States”. (sounds like MJ did something terrible to Wade in the meantime?)
Joy told us how Jackson had made special arrangements to facilitate their obtaining a visa to gain entry into the United States. “Michael had Wade and I sign a contract with his production company, MJJ Productions. [The contract was dated October 1st, 1991]. The contract was for one week. Wade was supposed to dance in one of Michael’s videos, and he would be paid $400 a day. He gave us part of the money from his pocket and we received part from his production company” .
Joy, however, was concerned about the contract. “He made it look like we were employees of his under a contract that would make it legal for us to get into the country. The money given to us after the first week was not related to the contract. It was a gift to support us so we could afford to stay in the United States. We were breaking the law, and Michael knew it. There were times that I thought immigration would come and detain us. Michael told us that we shouldn’t worry about it,” said the mother. (looks like he was detaining them there?)
Joy was referring to the fact that after the one week contract expired so did the reason for their visa, and technically, they should have left the country. Jackson, though, wanted Wade to stay, and so he supported his family for another two months in the United States. Joy and her son could not prove that they were working for Michael Jackson beyond the one week, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service could have deported them.
During their stay with Jackson, he bought Joy and Wade numerous presents, and Wade and Jackson spent much time playing together outside of the presence of Joy. One day, though, that would change, “I told Michael that where my son would go I would go. Of course, Michael didn’t like this. I also told him that I didn’t want my son to sleep with him. Wade would stay with me at night and if Michael wanted to play wit him during the day, it would be in a place where I could keep watch”.
These demands proved to be very costly for her.
“If there was something I learned, it’s that I shouldn’t have gone against Michael. He was enraged. It was because of this that we left the ranch. He didn’t give us any money. He left it up to us to contact him, but he never took our calls. We were calling because we needed money. We didn’t want to leave the country. Wade was finally able to speak with him and asked him if he would take him on the Dangerous tour, but Michael said that he never took kids on tour. My son believed him, but afterwards he found out that he had taken five boys that Wade had known. My son was very said and confused. And depressed.
This is why we are in the street trying to earn money.
At first, it did not seem that they were poor. But after some time it became apparent to me that they were homeless. They once had a rich life with one of the most famous people in the world. Now they were in the street without money, without friends, and hoping that Wade’s dancing would put bread on the table. Joy needed to talk, and she continued “Michael manipulated my son, that was what I didn’t like about him. He always made my son feel guilty if he didn’t do what he wanted. ”
I interrupted her to ask her the obvious, as I needed to hear her say it. “Manipulate your son? What was it that Michael wanted with a boy like your son?” Joy looked at me. She was upset and disgusted with what I had asked. She said: “I think the both of us know what we’re talking about. Michael was obsessed with my son. When I asked him why he wanted to sleep with my son, he replied that we would talk about it later. It never happened.
Joy told of her experience in trying to talk to Jackson about subjects other than her son. She spoke to Jackson about their life and now they were going to reach their goals. During these conversations, Joy would get upset because Jackson would turn the conversation to boys.
 Among the boys talked about was the actor Macaulay Culkin. Michael was obsessed with Macaulay just as he was with another boy that we knew at the ranch. Jimmy Safechuck, who was the other Pepsi dance contest winner. The obsession with Macaulay was deeper than the obsession with my son”.
Joy was sad and was playing with some plants in the grass. She would not look me in the eye and stared at the ground. “What was most strange,” she said almost laughing sarcastically, is that a few weeks later, I met a man who saw my son dancing and he offered to be his manager. Later, we were informed that he had abused minors too. Can you imagine two men who sexually abused minors were after my son. ”
This was the only time that Joy referred to Jackson in this way. I didn’t press her further for specifics about he son’s friendship with Jackson. I now knew that the statements taken before from other boys were true.
The stories agreed with Joy’s. The same games. The same manipulations.”
Now that you are familiar with Victor Gutierrez’ interpretation of Joy Robson’s words here comes the true story told by Joy Robson during her testimony at the 2005 trial. These are excerpts only as the testimony is really long and I tried to choose only the most interesting parts of it. From time to time I will remind you of what Gutierrez said about the same:
BY MR. MESEREAU:
1 Q. Miss Robson, where is your home?
2 A. In Sherman Oaks, California.
8 Q. How long have you known him? [Michael Jackson]
9 A. 18 years.
10 Q. And how did you meet Mr. Jackson?
11 A. Originally, in Australia. He was touring on the
14 Bad tour, and my son Wade was five years old and
15 won a Michael Jackson look-alike/dance-alike
17 Q. Did you develop a friendship with Michael
19 A. Not immediately. (and VG implied MJ had an immediate
interest for Wade, lavished him with presents and gave him a fax
machine?) Two years later, we
20 returned to the United States for — Wade was
21 dancing here, and we reassociated with him at that
22 point, and became friends from there, from 1989.
23 Q. Are you still Michael Jackson’s friend?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Have you been to Neverland?
26 A. Many times.
27 Q. How many times do you think you visited
28 Neverland? 9211
1 A. I have no idea. We average about four times
2 a year since we’ve lived in the United States, which
3 is 14 years now, and quite a few times before that.
4 Q. Do you remember the first time you visited
6 A. Yes. It was in January of 1990.
7 Q. And how did you end up visiting Neverland?
8 A. When we were here, we called around, trying
9 to find Michael again. He had told us if we
10 returned to the United States to contact him. So we
11 called around, and we eventually were put onto his
12 personal assistant, which at that time was Norma
13 Stakos, and they called Michael.
14 He remembered us, and said he would like to
15 see us again. So we met him at a recording studio
16 where he was working at the time (the incident in a recording
studio will come later. It seems that spent most of their time in the
17 Q. And did you stay at Neverland on that first
19 A. Yes, he invited us to stay that weekend, so
20 we did. We went — we were touring the United
21 States, we were here on vacation as well. We went
22 away for the week, and came back for the second
24 Q. Have you seen Michael Jackson’s bedroom at
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. When did you first see Michael Jackson’s
28 bedroom at Neverland? 9212
1 A. That first weekend when we stayed with him.
2 Q. Ever stayed in that room yourself?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall your son staying in Michael
5 Jackson’s room at Neverland?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And explain that, if you would.
8 A. Well, the first — the first night they had
9 been out doing the usual thing at Neverland,
10 playing. And later that night, they all came back
11 to the suite where my husband and I were staying,
12 and my parents were with us, as well. We were all
13 talking in the suite.
14 And Wade had been impersonating Michael for
15 some time and had lots of costumes of Michael’s that
16 we had made. And Michael was looking at them, and
17 we were just all discussing those.
18 And then it was getting late, and my
19 children said to me, both Chantel and Wade, my
20 daughter, said, ‘Can we stay with Michael. ‘
21 And my husband and I sort of looked at
22 Michael, and said, ‘Well, if that’s okay with you ‘.
23 And he said, Oh, absolutely. If they’d like to
24 stay, that’s fine.’ (the children were always the initiators)
25 Q. And did you allow your son and daughter to
26 stay in his room?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. How many times do you think your son and 9213
1 daughter stayed in his room?
2 A. Many times. I have no idea.
3 Q. Did you ever have a problem with them doing
5 A. Not at all.
3 Q. Ever see anything inappropriate happen at
5 A. Never.
6 Q. Okay. When’s the last time you spoke to
7 Michael Jackson?
8 A. Two weeks ago. We visited his children at
10 Q. Okay. And do you consider yourselves
11 friends of the family of Mr. Jackson?
12 A. We consider us very good friends, if not
14 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Jackson ever use the word
15 ‘family ‘ to describe you and your children?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any problem with
19 A. Never.
20 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson hug your children?
21 A. Mr. Jackson hugs everyone.
22 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson kiss your children on
23 the cheek?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you ever have a problem with that?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Ever see Mr. Jackson hold any of your
28 children by the hand? 9215
1 A. I think so, yes.
2 Q. Did you ever have a problem with that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson playing with your
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what did you see him do?
8 A. He’d play — I’ve seen him play games,
9 hide-and-seek. I’ve seen them climb trees. I’ve
10 seen them play in the water fort at the ranch. They
11 play constantly.
12 Q. Did you ever have any problem with any of
14 A. No. We all did it together often. We
15 were — all played together.
16 Q. How would you describe Neverland?
17 A. I would have once said the happiest place on
18 earth. I — I always felt that when we arrived at
19 Neverland, you forgot all your problems, you forgot
20 everything. It seemed like a world on its own. You
21 would drive in there, and it was very serene, very
22 peaceful, very beautiful. Inspirational. And
23 everything was perfect when you drive out and
24 reality would hit again.
1 Q. What did you do at
9 A. We watched movies. I particularly liked the
10 chimpanzees. I spent a lot of time playing with the
11 chimps. All the animals, I enjoyed. We would play
12 on the water fort. We’d drive the quads around the
13 hills. Just a fun time always.
20 Q. Ever see your son in a shower with Michael
22 A. No. Never.
23 Q. Ever seen the Jacuzzi at Neverland?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Ever been in it yourself?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. How many times, do you think?
28 A. Oh. Maybe six or eight times. 9217
1 Q. Now, to your knowledge, has your daughter
2 ever been in Michael Jackson’s room at Neverland?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did she ever stay over there, to your
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have any problem with that?
8 A. Not at all.
13 BY MR. SNEDDON:
27 As I recall, you first met the defendant at
28 a dance contest in Australia, correct? 9218
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And that was in what year?
3 A. That was in 1987.
13 Q. And the occasion of you meeting Mr. Jackson
14 was you were brought behind the stage with a lot of
15 other people who were back there; is that right?
16 A. It was a meet-and-greet situation, yes.
17 Q. There wasn’t a lot of substance to it?
18 A. No, it was just,’How are you? It’s a
19 pleasure to meet you’ type of thing.’ (so this is what it was like – quite a formal meeting instead of the “ïmmediate” friendship and presents to Wade and his mother)
4 Q. And then you were invited up to the ranch,
5 as I understand it, for a weekend?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So you weren’t there for an entire week?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Just for the weekend?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you went there for the weekend, the
12 first night, your son and daughter spent the night
13 in Mr. Jackson’s bedroom, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, as I understand it, then, this was only
16 the second time that you had met Mr. Jackson; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the first time you’d really met him on a
20 one-on-one personal basis, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how old was your son at this time?
23 A. When we were at Neverland?
24 Q. Yes, ma’am.
25 A. He was seven.
26 Q. Seven. How old was your daughter?
27 A. Ten.
28 Q. So your son and your daughter spent the 9220
1 first night with Mr. Jackson, and this was really
2 the first night you’d ever met Mr. Jackson, that’s
3 correct, on a substantive level?
4 A. Well, basically we’d spent the day with him,
6 Q. That was the first time?
7 A. Yes. (only he didn’t ask her about the several years of talking with Michael over the telephone prior to their actual meeting which is when they became really close friends)
8 Q. Now, did you know that your son and daughter
9 spent the night with Mr. Jackson in his bed?
10 A. They did not.
11 Q. They did not.
12 A. They slept on the mezzanine level.
13 Q. That’s your belief?
14 A. That’s what they had told me.
4 Q. The second night your
5 daughter did not stay with Mr. Jackson?
6 A. She did.
7 Q. The second night also?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Both nights?
10 A. Yes.
27 Q. Now, do you recall an incident that occurred
28 on Mother’s Day during 1990 on a trip to the ranch? 9234
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you were upset, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were crying at one point?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the reason for that was that you had not
7 seen your son all day, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it was Mother’s Day?
10 A. That’s right.
11 Q. And you found out that the reason that you
12 hadn’t seen your son that day was because he had
13 been sleeping all day, correct?
14 A. I think so. Yeah.
1 Q. When you visited in September of 1991, you
2 came permanently, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You had no intention of going back to
6 A. No.
7 Q. And you had your son and your daughter with
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And your husband did not come?
11 A. No. (remember VG telling us of her husband taking Wade to a
recording studio on that day? Just a reminder…)
12 Q. And at that point you had been separated
13 from your husband?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then from that point, from September of
16 1991 up till, let’s just say, September 1993 –
17 okay? – the time frame involved, you and your son
18 spent a great deal of time with Michael Jackson, you
19 were around him a lot, correct?
20 A. I don’t think so.
21 Q. You were not at the ranch on a number of
22 occasions during 1991?
23 A. My memory is in the entire time we’ve lived
24 here since 1991, we’ve only been at the ranch with
25 Michael on four occasions in 14 years. (so it was a truly open door policy for his friends)
26 Q. Four occasions?
27 A. Every other time we’ve been here without
28 him. 9238
1 Q. Would that be the same for your son?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So —
4 A. He came one — all the time by himself.
5 Q. You testified that you’ve been out at the
6 ranch on an average of about four times?
7 A. Four times a year, but Michael was never
8 there. (so much for the homelessness of poor Robsons. I wish all
could be homeless like that – coming to Neverland whenever they wanted,
in every season and staying as long as they wanted and for 14 years too)
11 Q. He’s never there when you go there?
12 A. Very rarely. I can only remember four times
13 in 14 years that we’ve been there with him since we
14 have lived here.
24 Q. Do you recall having a conversation in which
25 you — with June Chandler? Do you know who June
26 Chandler is?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. June Chandler is whom? 9239
1 A. Jordie Chandler’s mother.
2 Q. You’ve met June Chandler?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You’ve met Jordan Chandler?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Jordan Chandler was at Neverland Valley
7 Ranch at the same time as your son, correct?
8 A. We were all there together on one weekend.
9 Q. Okay. And do you recall testifying to a
10 situation in which your son, Wade, was upset because
11 Jordan Chandler was going to spend the night in
12 Michael Jackson’s room and Wade had to stay with you
13 in the guest cottage?
14 A. I don’t remember that. I remember reading
15 it in my testimony, but I don’t remember him being
17 Q. Maybe I’ll use a different word.
19 A. Possibly.
5 Q. Okay. Do you recall a conversation in which
6 you told June Chandler that some day Jordan was
7 going to be replaced by another one of Michael
8 Jackson’s friends?
9 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in a conversation you told June Chandler
20 that with these special friends, that when Mr.
21 Jackson moves on to the next special friend, that it
22 has a tremendous emotional impact on the children
23 when they’re no longer the favorite, correct?
24 A. As does everybody when they lose a friend.
25 Q. I’m sorry?
26 A. As does everyone if you lose a friend or a
27 friend becomes friendly with somebody else.
7 Q. Now, during the time that you were at the
8 ranch — you described a situation this morning for
9 the jury, you told them that when you go to
10 Neverland it’s like walking through a door and you
11 forget all your worries and all your cares.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That’s a paraphrase so….
14 Now, it’s also true that what happens at
15 Neverland Ranch, is it not, that when children come
16 on the ranch, they sort of lose all of their rules
17 and guidelines for conduct?
18 A. Well, that depends on the child.
5 Q. With regard to the conduct of your son when
6 he was on the ranch, did he get carried away, do
7 things there that he didn’t do other places in terms
8 of manners?
9 A. No.
10 Q. He was perfectly —
11 A. My son was always respectful, always
12 considered it a privilege to be there.
13 Q. Did he ever do anything that you would think
14 that would not be a good thing to do?
15 A. Not that I’m aware of.
16 Q. Are you aware that he was throwing pebbles
17 or rocks at the lions with Mr. Jackson?
18 A. I think that’s been paraphrased. I think
19 what they did is they threw them at the cage, not
20 the lion.
24 Q. So you make a distinction
25 between throwing them at the cage and the lion
27 A. Absolutely. They were just trying to make
28 the lion roar. All it did was make a noise. 9243
14 Q. Now, when you testified about Mr. Jackson
15 and his special friends in your deposition, you
16 mentioned that the first of the ones that you knew
17 about was your son Wade in 1990, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then in 1991 was Macaulay Culkin,
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in 1992, Brett Barnes, correct?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. And then in 1993, towards the end, was
25 Jordan Chandler, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. With regard to Brett Barnes, you went to
28 Chicago with your — or I should ask you this: Did 9244
1 you go to Chicago with your son to shoot a
3 A. A music video, yes.
4 Q. And did you go there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And with your son?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you meet Brett Barnes there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was Brett Barnes with the defendant?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in fact, Brett Barnes was staying with
13 the defendant in the defendant’s room, correct?
14 A. I don’t know.
15 Q. Did you see whether or not — did you meet
16 any of the Barnes’ parents there?
17 A. His mother and his sister were there on the
19 Q. You sure of that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was it your — you became aware of the
22 fact that Mr. Jackson referred to some of these
23 young boys as his cousins, correct?
24 A. Yes.
28 Q. Didnt you say that Mr. Jackson used the 9245
1 term ‘cousins’ because he didn’t want the kids to
2 get jealous of each other?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, do you recall an incident that occurred
5 where you were supposed to catch a plane and you
6 couldn’t find your son? (this is the recording studio incident
described by Gutierrez)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the fact is that you hadn’t seen or
9 heard from your son for two or three days?
10 A. I think two.
11 Q. And he had been with Mr. Jackson during that
12 entire time; correct?
13 A. Yes.
17 Q. You called a number of people trying to
18 locate your son, correct?
19 A. I was trying to call Michael, and he was in
20 the recording studio, not answering, not receiving
21 phone calls. And I think I called Neverland to see
22 if they had gone to Neverland.
8 Q. Did you call Norma Stakos trying to locate
9 your son?
10 A. Yes.
1 in 1991, in September, you came here on a —
2 originally you came here on a visa, temporary visa?
3 A. A six-month visitor’s visa.
4 Q. Okay. And your goal was to stay here
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And your goal was that you came because Mr.
8 Jackson had indicated to you that he was going to
9 help your son in his career, correct?
10 A. I’m not sure about that.
11 Q. Do you remember testifying in your
12 deposition that the defendant had arranged deals for
13 Wade with his — Sony records, Sony movies and Sony
15 A. No, that came after the fact. After we’d
16 been here. He didn’t promise anything when we came.
3 He came here originally in 1991 to work on
4 the ‘Black or White’ video, and we stayed after
5 that. That was the reason for coming in the first
1 Q. And when you came here in September 1991,
2 Mr. Jackson also helped you with some rent for the
3 first month, correct?
4 A. That was part of the video — you’re always
5 housed when you come to work on a music video.
6 Q. I think the question was did Mr. Jackson pay
7 for your rent the first month you were here?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when you came here in September, you
10 also went to work for MJJ Productions, correct?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You — let’s see if I get this right. You
13 had a job in a — cosmetics?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And because you were here on a certain kind
16 of visa, they couldn’t pay you; is that correct?
17 A. They did pay me, but they paid me through
18 Michael Jackson’s company.
19 Q. So your checks were from MJJ Productions?
20 A. Well, that makes it sound like MJJ
21 Productions was paying me. They were not.
22 Q. I just — the question was, the checks came
23 from MJJ Productions?
24 A. They were diverted through Michael Jackson’s
26 Q. In other words, your company would pay them
27 the money, and then Mr. Jackson’s company would pay
28 you the money? 9251
1 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that arrangement was worked out with the
6 approval and the help of Mr. Jackson, correct?
7 A. I think so. I’m — I mean, I didn’t speak
8 to him about it. I spoke to Norma Stakos about it.
9 Q. Do you recall telling and testifying to the
10 fact that what actually happened in September of
11 1991 is that Mr. Jackson was your sponsor when you
12 came to the United States with your son?
13 A. Not initially. We were here for six months
14 and then he offered, he offered to sponsor after we
8 Q. And during this particular point in time,
9 not January, but in 1993, at some point, your son
10 was in the process of putting together an album deal
11 where he — he or somebody with him would cut some
12 records, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And the negotiations began on that deal
16 A. From memory, June of ’93.
17 Q. And I think you described that process as
18 about a six-month process?
19 A. Well, it varies. But that one took that
20 long, yes.
21 Q. And the deal was finally signed on December
22 6th, 1993, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And the deal was signed with — with MJJ
25 Productions, correct?
26 A. Correct.
27 Q. And in the deal, your son — not your son —
28 the total deal was for $100,000, correct? 9253
1 A. The production company.
2 Q. Right. And your son’s share of that was
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And 15,000 of that was given as an advance?
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. And this was in December of 1993, correct?
8 A. I don’t really remember. I think according
9 to the transcripts that’s what it said.
14 We were in New York
24 Q. And there had been — there had been some
25 delay in the signing of the contracts, correct?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. And one of the things that had happened in
28 between the time that you first started negotiating 9254
1 the contracts in June or July and December 6 when
2 you finally signed the contract with Mr. Jackson’s
3 company was that Jordan Chandler had gone to the
4 Department of Social Services in the Los Angeles
5 District Attorney’s Office and reported that he’d
6 been molested by Michael Jackson, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in fact — well, let me ask you this:
20 You know a person, or knew a person by the name of
21 Anthony Pellicano, did you not?
22 A. Yes.
28 Q. And Mr. Pellicano was the 9255
1 one who was holding up the deal, correct?
2 A. Correct.
5 Q. And the deal was finally signed on December
6 6th because the defendant intervened and said, “Go
7 ahead and sign the deal,’ correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. In the meantime, Mr. Pellicano had given you
10 a $12,000 loan, correct?
11 A. 10,000.
12 Q. 10,000, you’re right. Absolutely. Pardon
13 me. $10,000 loan?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And did you ever repay that?
16 A. Yes.
21 Q. When’s the last time you saw Mr. Pellicano?
22 A. I haven’t seen him since. I have not seen
23 him since ’93.
10 Q. Do you remember the Los Angeles Police
11 Department coming to your apartment?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you didn’t give them a statement either,
14 did you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You gave them a very brief one and then said
17 you had to go somewhere. Isn’t that what happened?
18 A. No, they were trying to interview Wade
19 without me and I told them they were not to do that.
20 Q. Was there some concern on your part that
21 trained law enforcement officers shouldn’t talk to
22 somebody who could possibly be a suspect (sic) of a
24 A. I was concerned of manipulation.
25 Q. That the consequence, law enforcement would
26 manipulate your son?
27 A. Absolutely.
28 Q. You felt that your son could be manipulated 9257
2 A. No, but I wasn’t going to take that chance.
3 He was ten.
4 Q. You weren’t concerned about the fact that
5 the defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson, might
6 manipulate your son?
7 A. No concern at all that he would manipulate
8 my son.
9 Q. But two law enforcement officers, you
10 thought they would?
11 A. Possibly. I don’t know them. I know Mr.
13 Q. Okay. Now, you received another — you
14 received actually a loan from Mr. Jackson for
15 $10,000 in 1992, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You never paid that one back?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And did you receive another loan from Mr.
20 Jackson after the record contract was signed?
21 A. I don’t think so.
22 Q. Do you recall telling an investigator that
23 you had gotten a loan from Mr. Jackson for $10,000
24 and you tried to buy a car? Do you remember that?
25 A. He paid — he paid for the balance of the
27 Q. Mr. Jackson did?
28 A. Yes. 9258
1 Q. That was $10,000?
2 A. Yes.
9 BY MR. MESEREAU:
10 Q. Miss Robson, in response to the prosecutor’s
11 questions with regard to manipulation you said, ‘I
12 know Mr. Jackson.’ Do you remember saying that?
13 A. Absolutely.
14 Q. Please tell the jury what you meant by that.
15 A. Well, I’ve known Michael for a long time. I
16 know him very well. I’ve spent many hours talking
17 to him about everything. I feel like he’s a member
18 of my family. I know him very well. I trust him.
19 I trust him with my children.
20 Q. Why?
21 A. Because Michael is a very special person.
22 Unless you know him, it’s hard to understand. He’s
23 not the boy next door. He’s Michael Jackson. He’s
24 very — he’s just a very unique personality. He
25 loves children. And he has a very pure love for
26 children. And to know him is to love him and to
27 trust him.
28 Q. And when did you begin to know Michael 9262
2 A. I felt like I knew him from the very
3 beginning. He just has that wonderful way of making
4 you feel at home; that I felt like I knew him very
5 early on.
6 But particularly in the two years when we
7 were living in Australia before we moved here, and I
8 talked to him every day. We had very long
9 conversations about everything that was going on in
10 his life and my life and my children’s lives. And
11 you get to know someone very well when you talk to
12 someone several hours a day over a two-year period.
13 And then once we moved here, too, we
14 continued that. We’ve always been able to talk
15 about just about anything. (remember VG’s interpretation that ‘every conversation was about boys’?)
16 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you about Mother’s
17 Day at Neverland?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Remember that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And you learned that Wade and Mr. Jackson
22 were in a recording studio that day, correct?
23 A. Not that day. That was — that was the time
24 that we were staying in Westwood, and Wade and I had
25 our ticket booked to return to Australia. And he
26 had been at the recording studio with Michael for a
27 couple of days, and I just hadn’t heard from them.
28 I know that they were working long hours, and then 9263
1 they’d take off again the next day. And I was
2 getting —
3 MR. SNEDDON: Move to strike as a narrative,
4 Your Honor. Objection.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember anything
7 else about that day at the recording studio?
8 A. No, just — I had called Norma looking for
9 him, and she found them. She said they were in the
10 recording studio and, ‘Michael is bringing him back
11 to you. They’re on their way.’
12 Q. To your knowledge, did your son spend a lot
13 of time with Michael Jackson at recording studios?
14 A. Often, yes.
15 Q. And why was that?
16 A. Because Wade was interested in being a
17 recording artist, he was interested in being a
18 producer. He was learning. He loved to be around
19 that and absorb that. He was like a sponge. And
20 he — that was the relationship that he and Michael
21 had. It was — a lot of it was a working
22 relationship and Michael was teaching him.
23 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions
24 suggesting that you were allowing your son to be
25 with Michael just to further his career. Is that
27 A. Absolutely not.
28 Q. What do you mean? 9264
1 A. He was — as I say, he was learning things
2 from Michael. Michael was teaching him everything
3 he knew, and he couldn’t — that was part of the
4 friendship, but it was more of a friendship than
5 anything else. And I certainly never asked Michael
6 for anything where my son’s career was concerned.
7 I believe in my son, and I moved here for
8 him to further his career. I believed that he could
9 do that.
13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you allow your son to
14 spend time with Michael Jackson learning the
15 entertainment business?
16 A. Absolutely.
17 Q. Why did you do that?
18 A. Because he was learning from the best.
19 Michael offered to teach him everything he could.
20 He believed in him, so why would I not?
21 Q. Now, your son has had a pretty successful
22 entertainment career so far, right?
23 A. He has.
24 Q. And has he worked exclusively with Michael
25 Jackson or has he done other things on his own?
26 A. He’s done most of it on his own.
27 Q. What has he done?
28 A. He’s become a choreographer. He started — 9265
1 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial, Your
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you ever allow Wade to
12 be with Michael Jackson only because Michael Jackson
13 could help his career?
17 THE WITNESS: Never. We were friends first.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Why did you allow Wade to
19 spend a lot of time with Michael Jackson?
26 A. They enjoyed each other. They — they were
27 very similar people. I remember Michael telling me
28 early on that it was like looking in the mirror, he 9266
1 saw himself all over again. His interest was
2 because he saw Wade’s potential. And Wade loved
3 everything that Michael did and wanted to learn as
4 much as he could.
5 Q. Did you ever lose your trust in Michael
6 Jackson during any point in time that your son was
7 with him?
8 A. Never.
9 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything that made
10 you suspicious about his behavior towards your son
12 A. Never.
13 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever do anything that made
14 you suspicious about his behavior towards your
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions
18 about children being jealous if Michael Jackson had
19 another friend who was a child. Do you remember
20 those questions?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Please tell the jury what you meant.
23 A. It’s like any child who has a favorite uncle
24 or someone in the family that everyone wants to be
26 And Michael’s the sort of person that
27 everybody wants to be around. He has that sort of
28 aura. So naturally, when he was spending time with 9267
1 one child, another child would be jealous. It’s the
2 same in any family, if you spend time with one child
3 more than the other.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The prosecutor asked you
8 questions about Michael Jackson having special
9 friends who were children. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what did you mean by that?
12 A. Well, you know, there would be people who
13 would spend time with him at particular times more
14 so than others.
15 It didn’t mean that he didn’t still spend
16 time with all of them. They were all friends of
17 his. But when he spent particularly more time with
18 one than the other, then they were special for the
20 Q. Based upon what you’ve observed of Mr.
21 Jackson, would it be accurate to say that all over
22 the world children flock to him, don’t they?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Immaterial; leading.
25 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer is in.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: And have you seen children
27 from time to time get jealous because Mr. Jackson is
28 being nice to another child? 9268
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Has that ever appeared unusual to you?
3 A. Not at all.
4 Q. Did you ever see something that you thought
5 was very suspicious when one child would get jealous
6 of Mr. Jackson’s attention to another child?
7 A. No, I think that’s normal with children.
8 Q. When you used the term ‘special friends,’
9 what did you mean?
10 A. I think just the one that he was spending
11 time with for now. That he considered all of his
12 friends special.
13 I don’t know why I would have said that.
14 I don’t remember saying ‘special.’ But I imagine it
15 would have meant just the child that he was spending
16 time with now.
17 Q. When you used the term ‘special friends,’
18 did you mean to suggest anything criminal was going
20 A. Absolutely not. There’s nothing — no — nothing necessarily
6 bad connotation in that.
23 Q. Miss Robson, the prosecutor asked you
24 questions about borrowing $10,000. Remember that?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Would you please explain why you borrowed
28 A. The first $10,000, we had been here for, I 9279
1 think, a year, 18 months. And it was a lot more
2 difficult to establish ourselves here than I had
3 anticipated, so Michael offered to help us out for a
4 while. So we borrowed $10,000 at that point.
5 The second one was a car. I had been here
6 for a while. My credit from Australia cannot be
7 transferred, so I had no established credit in the
8 United States. I was listed as an employee because
9 of the cosmetics company paying through Michael
10 Jackson’s company. Because I was being sponsored by
11 MJJ Productions, I was listed as an employee of the
12 company. So I had asked if the company would
13 co-sign for my car because I was unable to get the
14 credit to buy a car, and Michael just offered to pay
15 for it rather than co-sign.
16 Q. Was it — as you recall, was it his idea to
17 help you or was it your idea?
18 A. I had asked for help. And he was there for
19 me. He was a friend.
20 Q. Okay. Was there anything, as far as you
21 know, improper or illegal about anything you did?
22 A. Nothing.
23 Q. Okay. The prosecutor asked you some
24 questions about whether or not you had borrowed
25 other funds. Do you remember?
26 A. Do you mean the Anthony Pellicano situation?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. Yes. 9280
1 Q. And what were you referring to?
2 A. Well, that was because the record label —
3 the deal had been held up, and the advance was
4 something that we needed to survive. And because it
5 was held up, Anthony Pellicano offered to loan the
6 money to me until the balance came through from the
7 record deal.
8 Q. Okay. Now, did you ask Mr. Jackson for help
9 from time to time?
10 A. I asked a couple of occasions with the car
11 and the initial 10,000.
12 Q. And he did help you on those occasions?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The prosecutor asked you questions about
15 your son’s entertainment career. Did you ask for
16 help from Mr. Jackson once in a while as far as your
17 son’s entertainment career was concerned?
18 A. No. I had called a couple of time to see
19 if — when he was doing music videos, to see if he
20 remembered Wade, because he said he would put Wade
21 in his music video. To remind him more than
22 anything. But that was all.
23 Q. And to your knowledge, did Mr. Jackson help
24 Wade with his career?
25 A. Yes, he’s always very supportive. He’s
26 always very interested in what Wade did with his
27 career. He would check on him. He would ask him to
28 send him — keep him in touch and send — when he 9281
1 was doing music production, he would ask him to send
2 him demos of the music that he was producing so that
3 he can listen to it and encourage him and teach him
4 what he was doing correctly and not. Always very
5 supportive, always very interested.
6 Q. Now, were you allowing Wade to spend nights
7 with Mr. Jackson because you just wanted to further
8 his career?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why were you letting Wade spend those
11 evenings with Mr. Jackson?
12 A. Those evenings just happened because they
13 were having fun together. They would play till all
14 hours of the night. They would watch music videos.
15 They would watch cartoons. And they’d basically
16 just go to sleep.
17 Q. Did you do that with Mr. Jackson as well?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. How often?
20 A. A couple of times.
21 Q. Okay. The prosecutor asked you questions
22 about Wade and Michael throwing some pebbles at the
23 lion cage. Do you recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How — when did you learn about Wade and
26 Michael throwing some pebbles at a lion cage?
27 A. I think Wade had told me about it at some
28 point after the fact. He was basically telling me 9282
1 that he heard the lion roar. And it didn’t roar
2 very often, so I was surprised. And he told me what
3 they did to make it roar.
4 Q. Well, was it your impression that they were
5 engaging in animal cruelty or anything?
6 A. Absolutely not. That’s the last thing that
7 either of them would do.
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Who told you about Wade
20 and Michael Jackson throwing some pebbles at the
21 lion cage?
22 A. Wade.
26 Q. And did he tell you that he had tried to be
27 cruel to an animal?
28 A. No. Wade loves animals. 9283
1 Q. Did he tell you that Michael Jackson had
2 tried to be cruel to an animal?
3 A. No. Michael is — loves all animals as
4 well. Neither of them would ever do that.
5 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions
6 about the word ‘cousin.’ Do you recall those
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you hear Michael Jackson use the
10 word ‘cousin’ in describing children?
11 A. Yes. He pretty much called everybody
12 cousins, I think.
13 Q. And did you know why he did that?
14 A. No. That’s just something that he — I
15 mean, I think at some point he may have said it so
16 that they weren’t jealous of each other, because
17 that tended to happen.
18 Q. Did you ever suspect there was something
19 criminal about Mr. Jackson using the word ‘cousin’?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Ever think there was something sexual about
22 Mr. Jackson referring to children as his cousin?
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Ever think there was anything inappropriate
25 about Mr. Jackson referring to various children as
26 ‘my cousin’?
27 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you referred to Chicago at one
16 point in your testimony.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you go to Chicago?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what was the purpose for that trip?
21 A. Wade was dancing on the music video ‘Jam.’
22 Q. Okay. And was that a music video involving
23 Mr. Jackson?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was Mr. Jackson in Chicago with you?
26 A. Not with us. He was there.
27 Q. Okay. And what do you mean by ‘not with
28 us’? 9285
1 A. Well, we weren’t staying with him. We were
2 flown in as Wade was working. And we stayed at a
3 hotel. He did the job, and we returned to Los
5 Q. And to your knowledge, where did Mr. Jackson
6 stay on that trip?
7 A. I have no idea.
8 Q. Did you see Mr. Jackson on that trip?
9 A. On the set, yes.
10 Q. Did you see him in any other location?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when that
14 A. I’m not sure. I want to say ’92. Maybe in
15 the middle of ’92 somewhere.
16 Q. Okay. The prosecutor asked you some
17 questions about whether you were concerned about
18 manipulation. Remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you ever concerned about Mr. Jackson
21 manipulating you?
22 A. Never.
23 Q. Did you ever tell anyone you were concerned
24 that Mr. Jackson was manipulating Wade?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Ever tell anyone that you were concerned
27 that Mr. Jackson was manipulating your daughter?
28 A. No. 9286
1 Q. Did you use the word ‘manipulation’?
2 A. Not to my knowledge.
3 Q. Are there any other entertainment-related
4 transactions that you recall either you or your son
5 being involved in with Michael Jackson?
6 A. And what do you mean by ‘entertainment
8 Q. Any type of entertainment, transaction,
9 project. You name it.
10 A. He did three music videos. He did a Pepsi
11 commercial. And the original L.A. Gear photo shoot.
12 I think those are the only things he’s ever done
13 with Michael.
14 Q. Did Mr. Jackson, to your knowledge, help
15 Wade with those projects?
16 A. What do you mean by ‘help’?
17 Q. Any kind of assistance.
18 A. I mean, he offered — he decided that he
19 wanted — he would want Wade to work on it, because
20 he was the best person for the job. Other than
21 that, no.
22 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, when is the
23 last time Wade worked with Mr. Jackson on any
24 entertainment-related project?
25 A. The last thing he — Michael performed with
26 ‘N Sync I think on an MTV Music Awards, and Wade was
27 choreographing and directing it. He put that
28 together. 9287
1 Q. Do you know approximately when that was?
2 A. I want to say 2000, something like that.
3 Q. Now, you said that many times you went to
4 Neverland and Mr. Jackson wasn’t there, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when you did that, how would you arrange
7 to visit Neverland?
8 A. Through his office. Through Evvy.
9 Q. Had Mr. Jackson given you permission to
10 visit Neverland when he wasn’t there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And approximately when did he say you could
13 do that?
14 A. He’s always said that, that we’re welcome
15 any time.
16 Q. And I believe you testified that you were
17 there more times when he wasn’t there than when he
18 was there; is that right?
19 A. Absolutely, yes.
20 Q. How many times do you think you visited
21 Neverland when Mr. Jackson wasn’t even there?
22 A. Maybe 40, 50 times.
23 Q. And where would you stay when Mr. Jackson
24 wasn’t at Neverland?
1 Before he had the children, I
2 would stay in the house. But since he’s had the
3 children and they’re now the childrens bedrooms, we
4 stay in the guest units.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How many times do you
6 think you stayed in Mr. Jackson’s main house before
7 Mr. Jackson had his own children?
8 A. Maybe 15, 20 times. I’m not sure.
9 Q. And where would you typically stay?
10 A. In the rose bedroom.
17 Q. And how far away is the rose bedroom from
18 Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
19 A. Mr. Jackson’s bedroom is on the ground
20 floor. I don’t know how to describe how far away.
21 It’s probably the length of two rooms, but on
22 another floor.
23 Q. Now, do you recall freely walking in and out
24 of Mr. Jackson’s bedroom?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And when you say ‘bedroom,’ you’re talking
27 about these two levels?
28 A. Yes. 9289
1 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Jackson ever put any
2 restrictions on your walking in and out of his own
4 A. No.
5 Q. And you freely walked in and out of his own
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The prosecutor asked you questions about a
9 lock and alarm. Do you remember that?
10 A. No. Oh, the chimes, yeah.
11 Q. Do you recollect your always having to go
12 through a locked door to get into his room?
13 A. I mean, I would always knock first before I
14 went anyway, so I dont have any idea whether the
15 door was locked or not. But I would never just walk
16 in. I would always knock and someone would open the
18 Q. What typically would happen when you’d
20 A. Wade would answer the door, or Michael.
21 Q. Okay. And would someone open the door for
23 A. Do you mean —
24 Q. When you knocked and someone responded,
25 would they typically open the door for you or would
26 you open the door yourself?
27 A. I think someone would open it for me.
28 Q. Did you go into Mr. Jackson’s room at all 9290
1 hours of the day?
2 A. At any time I wanted to, yes.
3 Q. Do you recall being in his room during the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall being in his room during the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall being in Mr. Jackson’s room
10 late at night?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you ever get the feeling that somebody
13 was trying to keep you out of Mr. Jackson’s room?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall spending much time in Mr.
16 Jackson’s room at Neverland?
17 A. I have spent time in there on occasion
18 watching television with them, but not often.
19 Q. Where would you typically watch television
20 when you were in Mr. Jackson’s room?
21 A. On the bed.
22 Q. Would that be the bed on the second level?
23 A. No. On the ground level.
24 Q. Okay. Now, the issue of Mr. Jackson helping
25 you with an automobile, when did that happen?
26 A. I think maybe ’93. Early ’93.
27 Q. And did you go to him and ask for some
28 assistance in getting an automobile? 9291
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And what was his response?
3 A. Well, I had asked him to co-sign. I wasn’t
4 asking for money. I was just asking for a
5 signature. And his response was, Well, why don’t I
6 just pay for it. ‘
7 Q. And did he do that, to your knowledge?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you feel that he was doing that because
10 he wanted something in return in any way?
11 A. Not at all.
12 Q. Did you feel there was any quid pro quo when
13 he helped you with the car?
14 A. Absolutely not.
15 Q. Did you feel there was any quid pro quo when
16 he helped you with money?
17 A. Never.
18 Q. Did you feel there was any quid pro quo when
19 he helped you as a sponsor?
20 A. Not at all.
21 Q. Now, what was this issue — you needed him
22 as a sponsor for what purpose?
23 A. To remain in the United States. We —
24 permanent residence. To be able to have a green
25 card, we had to have someone sponsor us into the
27 Q. Did you go to him and ask him if he would be
28 your sponsor? 9292
1 A. I talked to him about it, and he said he
2 would do whatever he could to do. He just
3 instructed his office to do whatever was needed.
4 Q. To your knowledge, what was done to help
6 A. An offer — they put me on their books as an
7 employee of the company.
8 Q. Did Mr. Jackson have to actually sign
9 anything to be your sponsor, if you recall?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you ask him to do that?
12 A. Yes. Pretty much. Basically I asked for
13 help. So that was the only way we could stay, so,
15 Q. And he did help you, right?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. Did you feel like you owed him anything
18 after he helped sponsor your family to stay in the
20 A. No. Not at all.
21 Q. Now, you received some payment through
22 Michael Jackson Productions; is that right?
23 A. My earnings from the cosmetic company was
24 diverted through the company, through his company,
26 Q. What cosmetics company was that?
27 A. Pigments. P-i-g-m-e-n-t-s.
28 Q. Where is that company located? 9293
1 A. On Burton Way in Beverly Hills.
2 Q. And you actually were working there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did you begin working at that cosmetics
6 A. I think ’93. ’92 or ’93.
7 Q. And the idea was that because you weren’t a
8 resident, you were not supposed to be employed; is
9 that the idea?
10 A. I was on a working visa, but it was through
11 MJJ Productions. I was — I was employed to be
12 employed by MJJ Productions only. So I managed to
13 find this job for myself. And in order to make it
14 legal, it had to be diverted through MJJ
16 Q. And where were you living at the time?
17 A. I was living in Hollywood.
18 Q. And who else was living there with you?
19 A. Chantal and Wade.
20 Q. And were you the main person providing for
21 your family at that point?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You needed a job, didn’t you?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Mr. Jackson helped you get a job, correct?
26 A. Well, he helped me, yeah. I mean, he didnt
27 get the job for me. I got the job, but he made it
28 possible for me to be allowed to do that, yes. 9294
1 Q. And how long did that arrangement last?
2 A. Oh, I think three years.
3 Q. Okay. So for approximately three years you
4 were paid through MJJ Productions, right?’ (and according to VG it was a one week contract. What does it matter to him – three years or one week ? Anything is good when it comes to putting that homeless story together…)
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Michael’s Jackson’s company?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you the primary wage earner for your
9 family at that point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And why did that arrangement end?
12 A. Wade booked a feature film. He was working
13 as an actor on a feature film. And because he was a
14 minor, I had to be there with him. So I left the
15 job and worked with him on the film.
16 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Jackson ever ask anything
17 in return for what he had done for you during those
18 three years?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Ever feel you had to repay him for any of
22 A. No.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: To your knowledge — all
17 right. To your knowledge, has your son ever been
18 held against his will by Mr. Jackson?
19 A. Never.
23 Q. To your knowledge, has your son ever been
24 abused by Mr. Jackson?
25 A. No.
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The prosecutor asked you
2 questions about seeing June Chandler at Neverland.
3 Do you remember that?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Did you see her at Neverland?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Did you talk to her at Neverland?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was she a friend of yours?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn’t care for her, right?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. My impression of June Chandler was that she
15 wanted to be mistress of Neverland; that she was
16 ordering the staff around as if she owned Neverland;
17 that she wanted everything that went with it. My
18 impression of June Chandler was that she was a
20 Q. Did you see her interact with Mr. Jackson?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you feel she was trying to use Mr.
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Jackson about it?
26 A. No, I did not.
4 BY MR. SNEDDON:
5 Q. Miss Robson, you’re not jealous of June
6 Chandler, are you, because she displaced you?
7 A. Not at all.
8 Q. Not at all?
9 A. Not at all.
10 Q. That wasn’t the feeling you had at the
11 ranch, because she was in control?
12 A. Absolutely not.
13 Q. And her son had replaced your son?
14 A. My son was there.
15 Q. Yes, but he wasn’t in the bedroom with
16 Michael Jackson anymore, was he?
17 A. I don’t know that he wanted to be. He was
18 Michael’s friend. They were there together as
19 friends. I had no wish to be June Chandler.
20 Q. Well, I didn’t ask you whether you wished to
21 be June Chandler. I asked you whether you were
22 jealous of her position.
23 A. Certainly not. What position would that be?
24 Q. Of being able to be close to Michael Jackson
25 at that point in time.
26 A. I don’t think she was close to Michael
27 Jackson at that time.
28 Q. You don’t? 9299
15 Q. So you don’t have any idea how close she was
16 to Mr. Jackson at that point in time, no personal
18 A. My personal knowledge from that weekend was
19 when I saw Michael Jackson trying to elude June
20 Chandler for the entire weekend.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Could you clarify this
20 issue of something being arranged when you came to
21 the United States; what was arranged, what wasn’t
23 A. Well, there were no contracts. I honestly
24 don’t know what I was referring to in the grand
25 jury. Perhaps — from my memory — I mean, we’re
26 going back 12, 13 years.
27 From my memory, I remember Michael saying
28 that he would help in whatever way he could. That 9304
1 he had movie companies. He had, you know, record
2 companies. If there’s something he could do, he
3 would help. But there were certainly no
4 arrangements. We came here and — I mean, I had to
5 get a job to work. There was no — there were no
6 contracts. There was nothing arranged. I didn’t
7 come here expecting Michael Jackson to give Wade a
9 Q. Has Mr. Jackson always been available to
10 help your family when you needed some assistance?
16 Michael’s a friend. And like
17 any friend, if we needed anything, he would be
18 there, and — and vice versa. We were there for
19 each other as friends are.
20 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.
21 MR. SNEDDON: No questions.
Sorry this was so long. But it surely gave you a feel about the true relationship between the Robsons and Michael Jackson. In no way did it resemble Victor Gutierrez’ story about Michael “abandoning the family and leaving them homeless and poor to beg for pennies in the street”.
And NEVER did Joy Robson doubt Michael’s innocence and NEVER did she confide in Victor Gutierrez about any of her ‘suspicions’ – she simply never had any and from the way she describes their relations with Michael she never had any reason for them either.
I hope Joy Robson’s testimony showed to you how much Victor Gutierrez twisted and stretched the truth – to the point of it becoming its complete opposite. And if someone prefers to believe his crooked version of Joy Robson’s story – well, we can’t help it.
Michael’s detractors often call his supporters “crazed Michael’s fans” – however I don’t know who is crazed or delusional here – Michael’s supporters who believe a testimony told under oath by the direct participants in the events or Michael’s haters who buy all sorts of dirty pedophile gossip told by some third and suspicious party as if it were gospel truth.
Is there a possibility that VG is lying in this particular case only and is telling the truth in the rest in his book? And what does your life experience tell you in this respect? My life experience says that if a person is a liar he is a liar in everything he does – once a liar, always a liar.
It is exactly about occasions like these that this English proverb is all about:
If somebody deceives you once, shame on HIM, If somebody deceives you twice, shame on YOU.
However some people like to be deceived twice, thrice, a dozen and innumerable times…
P.S. Some questions in Joy Robson’s testimony revolved round Wade and Michael throwing pebbles at a lion’s cage. It would be interesting to see Victor Gutierrez’s interpretation of the same. I haven’t got a scan of the pages telling that thrilling story but hear that Victor Gutierrez turned into a truly horror story with a lot of bloodshed there.
Lynette, could you help and provide the story please? Just for the fun of it.