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Conrad Murray trial week 3. A MURDER?

October 11, 2011

This is a place to collect all information about week 3 of Murray’s trial.

First comes the link to Thomas Mesereau’s radio interview conducted by PositivelyMichael – he answers questions about Murray’s trial and talks about some aspects of the 2005 case:

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/audioPop.jsp?episodeId=547598&cmd=apop 

Day 10. October 11, 2009

Detective Scott Smith is continuing his testimony. From the tape of his interview with Murray on June 27, 2009 (see here please) one gets the impression that he and Detective Orlando Martinez were having more of a gossipy chat with Murray than an official police interview. There were times when they laughed and Murray apparently felt very relaxed throughout the process.

The policemen disclosed to Murray some of their findings and when Murray heard of Michael using eye drops he said “Surprise, surprise” and sounded like rolling his eyes– he didn’t know that the drops were prescribed by Arnold Klein and his reaction implied  that you could expect any unaccounted for behaviour from Jackson, to which the policemen tacitly agreed.

Those seasoned detectives allowed Murray to lead them in the discussion and left his monologue unchallenged – in fact they looked like two gullible housewives who listen to someone’s story with their mouths open.  The detectives were too ready to believe anything bad about Jackson and this is the reason why they didn’t take the case seriously – at least until August 27 when the Coroner’s office suddenly pronounced the cause of death as HOMICIDE.

They were so sure there was nothing to look into that they didn’t do the basic things they were expected to do. They didn’t really talk to Alberto Alvarez and Faheem Mohammed as all they got from them was their contact information. Now, at the trial, this gives a chance to the Defense to claim that these witnesses initially “withheld” something from the police as they shared it only in August.  But what if they were asked only in August?

Conrad Murray walks free out of the hospital on June 25, 2009. He won’t answer the phone the next day and will be interviewed by the police only on June 27. Two days after the interview, on June 29 they will search Arnold Klein’s office, and not Conrad Murray’s office or house

They actually went into every direction Murray sent them to, losing valuable time and overlooking the real criminal under their very nose. They didn’t issue the search warrants of Conrad Murray’s home and went to Arnold Klein instead.

Their first “serious” (Walgren’s word) search warrants were executed on June 29 only when they searched Michael Jackson’s house. They also looked into Murray’s car though and found his contract with AEG there.

They didn’t demand then and there Murray’s medical records about his patient – in fact they are not doing it even in the June 27 interview as the tape shows it – and they let him go on his own after that. None of them could locate Murray the day before as his telephone was not answering and all their messages went to voice mail but even this did not raise a red flag for them.

They didn’t search the closet until Murray told them he had left his bags there. Now the defense presents it as Murray’s virtue claiming that he admitted it of his own free will, while his “honesty” has a totally different root – he was sure that the police had found the bags and was startled to find out that they had not. Detective Smith described Murray’s eyes widening and him leaning forward in amazement at hearing this news.

The police didn’t seal Michael Jackson’s home and if Murray had known it he could have very well entered it again and destroyed the valuable  evidence. Detective Smith asked if it would be sealed but was told that under the circumstances it wasn’t needed.

They searched Murray’s clinic on July 22 and only on July 28 went to his home, office and storage room – which was actually a month after Michael Jackson’s death. Needless to say that there was no propofol found there.

And it was only after the search was made at the Applied Pharmacy Services conducted on August 11th that they found all those numerous invoices of shipments to Murray which finally sent them on the right track.

All that slackness on the part of the police gave Chernoff a chance to find numerous faults with them and their witnesses.

He asked questions like “You did talk to Alvarez in the hospital and he didn’t tell you of the vials or bag until August, did he?” “And Faheem Mohammed didn’t tell you that Dr.Murray wanted to go back to the residence?” Of course they didn’t as the police never asked and took only their contact information!

Chernoff made a mammoth story out of Smith not seeing the coroner investigator Ms. Fleak taking a propofol bottle out of the IV bag (as if her statement is not enough for it). Well, Detective Smith was simply not looking at that moment.

Chernoff further pressed the point and said that Smith wrote in his notes that an empty Lorazepam bottle from the master bathroom was found in a bag and presumed it was that very IV bag, but Walgren with the help of Smith clarified that it was a debris bag. To me the whole thing sounded like Smith didn’t really care what bag it was when he was writing it.

Chernoff turned some policeman’s phrase “Stop looking into other doctors!” into another big mountain, but Smith said that it was a “head-on” between the departments as others were looking into those doctors and they were interfering with each other.

Even with all those points duly clarified Walgren sounded a little embarrassed and tried to excuse the detectives’ lack of attention and too much confidence in Murray’s story by suggesting questions like:

–          “Your knowledge of the case was limited at that time?” “Yes, very limited”

–          “There is very little questioning done by Orlando Martinez and you during that interview. Was it your tactic to allow Conrad Murray to tell his story?” “It wasn’t an interrogation. It was an interview”

–          “Did you have the phone records at the time?” ”No, we didn’t”.

–          “Were you prepared for it? Do you have any medical education?” “No”.

Well, whatever the detective says now it is clear that their unwillingness to regard what happened in Michael Jackson’s house as a scene of crime could spring only from their preconceived notions about the man and the habitual wrong way of thinking that whatever happens to Michael Jackson he is always to blame for it.

This is why these seasoned detectives simply didn’t believe that Michael could become a victim of a crime – they were of so bad an opinion of him that it seemed natural he would die of some drug. And this is what Murray was very much hoping for when reciting his fairy tale to the detectives.

Under the heavy influence of this “he-is-always-to-blame” stereotype the detectives allowed themselves to never doubt Murray’s story and go in the directions he willfully sent them into.

In short people let Michael down even in his death – even those who were specially trained not to.

*  *  *  *  *

The next witness was Dr. Christopher Rogers. This doctor is actually the great doctor  to whom we are obliged for turning “an ordinary death” smooth scenario into a homicide case.

Dr. Rogers is Deputy Medical Examiner for Los Angeles and Chief of Forensic Medicine, which is part of the pathology medicine that deals with violent and unexplained deaths. His entire career was devoted to pathology. He personally handled several thousand autopsies and conducted an autopsy of Michael Jackson on June 26, 2009.

An autopsy is an examination of the outside and each of internal organs in pursue of the cause of death. The outside of Michael’s body did not have any abnormalities which would be suggestive of the way he died.

This reminded me of the Discovery channel’s plans to show an online autopsy of Michael’s body which besides being totally unethical was also absolutely useless – what was there to show if there was nothing on the outside?

On the day of the autopsy Dr. Rogers was unable to determine the cause of death. Specimen for toxicology tests were sent out for further examination. Prosecutor David Walgren asked the doctor about the overall health of Michael Jackson and he said that Michael was healthier than the average person of his age is.

Yes, all those Michael Jackson’s detractors who still call him derogatory names, please remember that he was healthier than any of you who entered or will enter the age of 50. And this, my dear ones, can only be the result of a healthy way of life and healthy way of thinking…

With so much effort to resuscitate the man his arms were heavily punctured. What a trying sight it is to see this lifeless hand!

Unfortunately David Walgren showed a picture of Michael Jackson dead. I didn’t really look because I didn’t want to. However here is the picture of Michael’s arm which shows where all those numerous punctures found on his body came from.

Dr. Rogers said that Michael’s coronary system did not show any atherosclerosis (the build-up of fat and cholesterol in the blood vessels of his heart).

The extremely reserved Dr. Rogers looked visibly surprised when he said it and when Walgren asked why, he explained that at the age of 50 almost everyone has atherosclerosis –  however Michael Jackson didn’t have any.

Among Michael’s specific features he noted his vitiligo skin disorder,  a chronic inflammation and scarring of lungs, enlargement of prostate which made it difficult to urinate (this malady of ageing men did not unfortunately bypass him, poor thing), arthritis, an irregular depigmentation area on the top of his scalp (where he had a burn during the filming of a commercial) and some other minor points like root canal therapy and others.

Michael Jackson’s height was 5 feet 9 inches / 175 centimeters and he weighed 63 Kgs / 136 lbs.  Walgren suggested that Mr. Jackson was thin but Dr. Rogers said that his body mass index was within the normal range.

The doctor analyzed all parts of Michael’s digestive and respiratory systems for signs of propofol – beginning from mouth to the stomach and from the upper airway to the lungs  – but didn’t find any signs of it. The stomach contained 70ml of dark liquid which he specifically examined for presence of any pills or tablets as the cause of death,  but the liquid did not contain any.

All the SUN reveals is that they are lying like crazy

At this point I recalled all those tabloids screaming of dozens of terrible pills in Michael’s stomach and printing huge pictures of Xanax and Demerol on their front pages. Here is the one I made a screen shot of  – let it stay here as a monument to their disgrace.

Dr. Rogers sought medical records from Conrad Murray regarding his treatment of Michael Jackson but was not able to obtain any.

He had consultations with other doctors including anesthesiologists before determining the cause of Michael’s death and after collecting all the results concluded that it was HOMICIDE. This determination was based on several issues:

  • Murray’s own statement to the police in which he admitted administering benzodiazepines and the propofol
  • the risk of administering propofol under those circumstances outweighed the benefits of it
  • the setting was outside the clinic
  • there was no precision device that could measure how much propofol was being given
  • there was no monitoring and resuscitation equipment present, no equipment to improve MJ’s circulatory function
  • the overall circumstances did not support self-administration of propofol.

In forming his conclusion over the “self-administration” point he chose between two scenarios. The first was that MJ supposedly woke up and still being under the effect of sedation drew propofol from a vial, reached for the IV port and self- injected it there. Since the injection was supposedly given in the leg (under the knee) it also takes longer time to reach the brain, so within 2 minutes while Murray was away it was not a realistic scenario to happen.

The alternate scenario was that the doctor gave Michael a bigger doze than required.

Dr. Roger explained this point in detail. The initial 25mg (2.5ml) doze of propofol reportedly given by Murray was not big. After that he had to give additional dozes to keep MJ sleeping – this would be 2-3 table spoonfuls of propofol per hour. It was imperative that the dosage should be precise for fear of excessive administration – however they didn’t find any precision dosing device on the scene and without it the doctor was unable to estimate how much propofol he was giving. Since the device was missing it was more likely that Murray overdosed his patient (in the best case scenario).

The cause of death was acute propofol intoxication with a contributing effect of benzodiazepines (Midazolam and Lorazepam). These two drugs would bring about a quicker depression of breathing and would exacerbate the effect of propofol.

Dr. Rogers went over the diagram of MJ’s body and showed numerous punctures resulting from the resuscitation efforts (shame on all those who scorned Michael for all those punctures!).

Considering that the paramedics worked on Michael’s body for some 20 minutes or so and then the emergency room doctors did the same for an hour and 15 minutes the punctures made were numerous. I hope that tabloids will finally shut up after hearing that.

the diagram showed all the punctures made during the resuscitation efforts

And before going on an afternoon break Dr. Rogers and David Walgren dropped a sort of a bomb. They examined the photos of the stopper on the 100ml propofol vial (the one in the IV bag) and found that it had a totally different puncture mark that the one usually left by a syringe needle.

That stopper had a slit. It was a line stretching from side to side all through the middle of the stopper.

Dr. Roger said that he had seen such marks before. They come from a device which is seldom used now (the last time he used it was in medical school). It is called a spike. It cuts through the rubber and the propofol will freely flow down the end of it.

The propofol vial had a slit instead of a needle puncture mark.

A spike allows the propofol to uncontrollably drip from the vial or even produce a steady stream from it.

You put the vial upside down, attach some tubing to it and here it is dripping slower or quicker depending on how big the slit is…

At that point it occurred to me that the case was beginning to rapidly turn into a murder one.

It probably occurred to many of us as after the break John Michael Flanagan of the Defense suggested all sorts of fantasy theories to explain the strange mark on the rubber stopper. Unfortunately Dr. Rogers simply confirmed that some theories were possible without giving his evaluation of such actions –  thus possibly creating the impression that it was okay to do all those things.

What Flanagan suggested, for example, was that the vial of propofol (with a slit in the rubber) was put inside the IV saline bag in order to dilute it with saline and administer propofol this way. The theory is totally outrageous  – a dirty vial is dropped into a sterile liquid and creates some sort of a mix which is then dripped into a body? Even in war-time conditions doctors would not do a thing like that! And the propofol concentration will be so little that it won’t take any effect either!

After listening for half an hour to this crazy talk we finally hear Flanagan admitting that no signs of propofol were found in the IV bag (so all that show was for the sake of show only).

The Defense does indeed grasps at straws.

One of Flanagan’s attempts attracted my attention though. He started to develop a theory that after the first 5 minutes of sleep, which would be induced by the initial 25ml of propofol, the patient could go on sleeping naturally just “because he was tired”.

This by the way may be pointing to what really happened in that bedroom – Murray could have administered propofol, and when his patient did not wake up, he could go on with his business  happy that the patient was quiet at last and was no longer a nuisance. Dr. Rogers merely said “yes” to this theory without giving his assessment of it.

Though propofol is a clear reason for Michael’s death (in whichever way it was given), the Defense now is diverting our attention from this drug and is switching over to Lorazepam. On the next day of the trial they announce that they are no longer pursuing the theory of self-administering Propofol:

Attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray told the judge in his manslaughter trial that they were dropping their claim that Jackson swallowed propofol when Murray was out of the room. The defense still is arguing that the singer could have injected himself with an extra, fatal dose on June 25, 2009.

“We are not going to assert at any point in time in this trial that Michael Jackson orally ingested propofol,” Murray’s attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the judge.

With the jury out of the courtroom on Wednesday, Murray’s attorneys and prosecutors presented medical studies to the judge that have shown propofol has no major effects on a person when swallowed.

http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/2011/10/12/pf-18815431.html

Now they claim that in his desperation for sleep Michael Jackson swallowed Lorazepam pills which were in a bottle on the night stand.

This picture was presented by the Defense. Lorazepam was on the night stand on the left of all bottles while the patient is on the right

This medication was prescribed by Murray on April 28, 2009 (to be taken 1 pill at bedtime). The bottle contained 30 pills and two months later had 9 and a half pills left. This means that for approximately 60 days Michael took 20 pills and a half. It also means that Michael was so cautious with it that there were cases when he took pills by half.

However Flanagan forced Dr. Rogers to make some calculations and admit that the concentration of Lorazepam in the stomach was four times as big as in the femoral blood. (Femoral blood is periphery blood and is different from central blood near the heart as it is less susceptible to postmortem changes).

Femoral blood had a concentration of 0, 169 milligrams of Lorazepam, while the gastric contents had 0,634 milligrams of it.

Calculations of the amount of Lorazepam in Michael’s stomach provided by the prosecution

However whatever concentration it was we still remember that the amount of Lorazepam found in the stomach was equal to only 1/43d part of one 2mg pill of Lorazepam which is a ridiculously small dose unable to cause death.

Proof of it was presented by David Walgren on week 2 of the trial during the testimony of toxicologist Dan Andersen.

The gastric contents is commented on by toxicologist Dan Andersen.  The concentration of Lorazepam was 634ng if calculated in micrograms. It is equal to 0,634 milligrams. However the actual amount was even smaller. It was 0, 046599 milligrams

During re-crossing Dr. Rogers David Walgren specifically noted that most of the Defense’s questions centered on pharmacology and were beyond Dr. Rogers’s area of expertise.

Finally Walgren asked him a very important question.

Even if Murray’s scenario was correct and the half-sedated patient was left with Lorazepam or Propofol beside his bed and took it while the doctor was away WAS IT STILL A HOMICIDE?

Dr. Rogers said “YES”.

*  *  *  *  *

Days 11-12. October 12-13, 2009

Before reading about the testimony of Dr. Alon Steinberg who testified on that day we first need to look at Murray’s initial version of the events of June 25, 2009 the way they are related in his interview with Detectives Smith and Martinez.

The reason for that is because the full meaning of Dr. Steinberg’s testimony will become clear only after we get familiar with the real timeline of the events and what Murray said about his actions during that period. Though this information was placed at the end of week 2 I place the transcript of the interview here again for easier reference, together with the chart of Murray’s telephone conversations that morning:

DETECTIVE SMITH:     OKAY.     SO YOU GAVE HIM THIS PROPOFOL.

DR.   MURRAY: YES.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS NOW?    THE LAST TIME I GOT WAS ABOUT 10:00 O’CLOCK,  WHEN THERE WAS STILL NO EFFECT AND HE’S COMPLAINING THAT HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO CANCEL.

DR.  MURRAY:     IT WAS —  I KNEW  I LOOKED AT THE TIME.     I LOOKED AT THE SUN.     AND IT WAS — IT WAS –  I SAW 10:30    SO I WOULD SAY ROUGHLY 10:40.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     HOW MUCH DID YOU ADMINISTER INITIALLY?

DR.  MURRAY:     2 5 MILLIGRAMS.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     OKAY.     AND AGAIN,   THIS WAS APPROXIMATELY 10:40 NOW,   GIVE OR TAKE?

DR.  MURRAY:     WELL,   BY  10:40,  WE — WE HAVE DISCUSSED THAT NOTHING  IS  HAPPENING.     SO BY THE TIME I WITHDRAW  IT  FROM THE  BOTTLE,   GET  IT  DILUTED —  I HAD TO  DILUTE   IT,   AND USUALLY  I  DILUTE  IT WITH LIDOCAINE, L-I-D-O-C-A-I-N-E,   BECAUSE IT COULD BE VERY — IT BURNS THE  VESSELS.     IN THE  SENSE OF THE  SIDE EFFECT, IT CAUSES   IT TO BURN

DETECTIVE SMITH:     AND  I’M SORRY.     YOU GAVE HIM HOW MUCH NOW?

DR.  MURRAY:     2 5 MILLIGRAMS.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     OKAY.     AND ALWAYS THE SAME WAY.

DR.   MURRAY: YES.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU WERE GIVING HIM,   WAS  INTO THE —

DR.   MURRAY:     YES,   I  PUSHED IT.

DETECTIVE SMITH: OKAY.

DR.   MURRAY: UH-HUH.

DETECTIVE SMITH: OKAY. I AM SORRY I INTERRUPTED YOU. BUT WE WERE GETTING TOWARDS THE TIME AT 10:40,   YOU REALIZED THAT NOTHING WAS HAPPENING, AND SO BY THE TIME YOU GOT YOUR THINGS TOGETHER AND YOU PUSHED IT,   IT WAS —

DR.   MURRAY:     IT WOULDN’T TAKE A LONG TIME FOR ME TO JUST WITHDRAW FROM A VIAL AND DILUTE IT WITH THE LIDOCAINE,   WHICH IS A LOCAL ANESTHETIC AGENT THAT, YOU KNOW,  ALSO IS A SODIUM BLOCKER TO MAKE HIM NOT FEEL THE BURNING SENSATION OF THE SLOW INJECTION. SO I  HAD A TOTAL OF MEDICATION  MIXED WITH THE LIDOCAINE, AND I ADMINISTERED IT.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     OKAY.     DOES THAT TAKE YOU ABOUT AN EXTRA 5 MINUTES OR 10 MINUTES?

DR.   MURRAY:     SLOWLY  INFUSED.     SLOWLY INFUSED OVER,   I WOULD SAY,   3 TO 5 MINUTES.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     3 TO 5?

DR.   MURRAY:     YEAH,   BECAUSE THE  EFFECT IS GONE VERY QUICKLY.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     SO WE’RE LOOKING LIKE AT 10:50ISH.

DR.  MURRAY:     YES.     YEAH,   THE EFFECT IS GONE VERY  QUICKLY.     SO THE  EFFECT WAS ONLY LAST  — ONLY LASTS ABOUT  15 MINUTES.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     OKAY.     SO NOW WE’RE AT ROUGHLY 10:50,   11:00 O’CLOCK.

DR.  MURRAY: UH-HUH.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     WHAT TAKES PLACE NEXT?

DR.  MURRAY:     WELL,   YOU KNOW,   HE’S NOW ASLEEP,   YOU KNOW.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     HE DOES GO TO SLEEP.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     OKAY.     WE’RE GOING TO GET BACK ON TRACK.     WE’RE AT ABOUT 10:50 HOURS.

MURRAY: UH-HUH.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     WHERE YOU GIVE HIM THE PROPOFOL.     WE’VE GONE INTO THE HISTORY OF HOW HE ALREADY KNEW ABOUT  IT.     HE’S  THE ONE WHO REQUESTED YOU —

DR.  MURRAY: YES.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: –FOR IT, GIVING YOU SOME PRESSURE.

MR.   CHERNOFF:    WE GOT THE MILLIGRAMS, 25.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     25 MILLIGRAMS,   HALF OF WHAT YOU NORMALLY GIVE.    NOW,   WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

DR.  MURRAY:     I AM — I’M MONITORING HIM AT THE HOUSE.    AND HE FELL ASLEEP.

DETECTIVE SMITH:     11:00 O’CLOCK NOW? LATER?

DR.  MURRAY:     HE FELL ASLEEP FAIRLY QUICKLY, I WOULD SAY.     BUT HE WAS NOT SNORING.     NORMALLY, IF HE’S  IN DEEP SLEEP,   HE WOULD BE SNORING.     I WAS A LITTLE BIT HESITANT THAT HE WOULD PROBABLY JUMP OUT OF SLEEP,   BECAUSE THAT IS  – HE DOES.     HE JUST (SNAPS) GETS UP LIKE THAT,  AND HIS EYES GOES,  AND HE’S WIDE AWAKE.    AND WHENEVER HE’S UP,   HE REACHES FOR HIS I.V. SITE.

…  I MONITORED HIM. I SAT THERE AND WATCH HIM FOR LONG ENOUGH PERIOD THAT I FELT COMFORTABLE. THEN I NEEDED TO GO TO THE BATHROOM. SO I GOT UP, WENT TO THE BATHROOM TO RELEASE MYSELF OF URINE AND ALSO CONSIDER GETTING RID OF SOME OF HIS URINATION THAT HE HAD  PUT  IN  THE  JUGS OVERNIGHT.

THEN I CAME BACK TO HIS BEDSIDE AND WAS STUNNED IN THE SENSE THAT HE WASN’T BREATHING.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:    ALL RIGHT.     SO YOU HAD THE IMPRESSION HE WASN’T BREATHING,   AND YOU SAID HIS PULSE WAS HIGH?

DR.  MURRAY:     WHEN I CAME BACK, YEAH.

DETECTIVE MARTINEZ:     GO ON.

DR.  MURRAY:     BEDSIDE AND MY CLINICAL OBSERVATION.     SO IMMEDIATELY  I  FELT  FOR A PULSE,  AND I WAS ABLE TO GET A THREADY PULSE IN THE FEMORAL REGION.

HIS BODY WAS WARM.     THERE WAS NO CHANGE IN COLOR. SO I  — I ASSUMED THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENED VERY QUICKLY, JUST ABOUT THE TIME I WAS GONE,  WITHIN THAT TIME AND COMING BACK.     SO I  STARTED IMMEDIATELY TO PERFORM C.P.R.  AND MOUTH-TO-MOUTH RESUSCITATION.

Let us go over it again.

He says that he “looks at the sun” and checks up the time – it is 10.30.

Then he dilutes the propofol with lidocaine and about 10 minutes later  – at 10:40 – starts administering it slowly. It takes him 3 to 5 minutes to make the injection. This brings us to 10.43 – 10.45.

He says that the effect of the injection will last only for 15 minutes – which takes us to 11.00, after which he supposedly finds that Michael is not breathing.

So beginning with 11.00 o’clock he is supposed to begin frantically working on his heart, etc.

Let me remind you that this was Murray’s story told to the detectives on June 27, 2009 or two days after the event. Later on he changed it and we will have to look specifically into the reasons why he did and what the meaning of it is.

In the meantime though let us just compare his story with what was really happening at the described crucial period of time.

The description of all calls to and from Murray’s cell phones that morning is found in the testimony of Detective Myers at the preliminary hearings. Murray’s calls will enable us to draw a timeline of the events, determine the real background for what was happening in that room on June 25, 2009 and compare it with Murray’s story told to Detective Martinez and Smith on June 27, 2009.

5: 54 am An email comes from London from Bob Taylor who writes that the insurers require full information MJ’s various medical conditions including the period of the 2005 trial or otherwise the insurance could be called into question. The email is long and demanding. It demands a 5-year medical record of the artist and lots of other information concerning press reports on Michael’s back injury, lupus, reasons why he appears in wheelchair, whether he has skin cancer, etc.

…. 7:01 am Murray calls Andrew Butler. Butler says that Murray is his doctor and friend. He doesn’t remember if he received a call from Murray that morning but acknowledges Murray’s number (evidently in the printout of calls).

8:49 am a call is placed to Murray by Antoinette Gill, his patient and friend. She says she spoke to Murray. The reason why she called is because she “received a letter in the mail indicating that he was not going to be in the office. Someone else would be seeing her, and that she called the doctor to ask, to inquire”.

9:23 am a call comes in from a girlfriend of Channel, Murray’s daughter.

10:14 am a call comes from Acres Home And Cardiac Care, the clinic where Murray practiced in Texas.

10:22 – 10:24 am a call comes from Dr. Prashad.  It is a consultation about one of Murray’s patients. The prosecutor tells it all in one sentence: “So Dr. Prashad conveyed to you that in her short telephone call of approximately less than two minutes, 111 seconds, Dr. Murray was able to recollect the patient that she was referring to, provide her with necessary information concerning that patient’s current prescription and medication needs, as well as a previous procedure some two months earlier that Dr. Murray had conducted on that patient?” “Correct”.

10:34 am a call comes from Murray’s personal assistant Stacey Ruggles . They “discussed a document that was to be drafted to the London medical  boards indicating his pending arrival and what facilities may be available to him, if needed”. She says that Dr. Murray doesn’t sound distracted or tired, as Detective Myers testifies:

Q. Dr. Murray was directing her, requesting of her to draft a letter concerning his activities at the upcoming tour in London?

A. That’s correct

Q. Did you ask Ms. Howe-Ruggles whether or not Conrad Murray seemed distracted or preoccupied at any time during the phone conversation that she had with him on June 25, 2009?

A     Yes, I did.

Q.   What was her response?

A.  She did not indicate that he appeared to be distracted or tired.

11:07 – 11:08 am Murray places a call to Stacey Ruggles and speaks to her for one minute.

11:17 am Murray sends out an email to Bob Taylor of the insurance company in London.

11:18 – 11:49 am comes a call from Murray’s Las Vegas practice. It lasts for 32 minutes.

Quote:

Q     Moving to 11:18 a.m., a call from (702) 862-0973 placed to (702) 866-6802.  That call duration reflects 32 minutes. Detective, did you contact the (702) number that ends 6802 during your investigation to make determination as to who that number belongs to?

A     Yes, and I was actually at the location as  well.

Q     What is that location associated with that telephone number?

A     It was Dr. Murray’s practice in Houston — in Las Vegas. It is known as global cardiovascular & associates.

11:26 am a call comes from Bridgette Morgan over another cell phone. Murray does not answer it. He is talking to his Las Vegas practice.

11:49 am a voicemail is sent by Murray to his patient Robert Russell which lasts 3 minutes. In his testimony Russell explained that on June 25 he called Murray’s office and expressed his frustration at continuous cancellation of his appointments with the doctor.  Both his June 15 and June 22 appointments had been cancelled and he wanted to know where he stood. Only a few weeks prior to that he had been near death and now he had no information whatsoever and was not referred to any other cardiologist.

When calling Murray’s office he said that he expected a return call or he would proceed to legal action. He said he felt abandoned and needed answers. In reply to his complaints a voice mail from Murray came at 11:49 am. In his message Murray was saying that the patient’s “heart was repaired”. Russell was pleased that Dr. Murray responded so quickly but was disappointed that there was still no information about another doctor to whom he could be referred.

11:51 – 12:01  am Murray calls Sade Alding. She says that  5-6 minutes into the calls she realizes that Murray is not responding. She hears a cough and mumbling of voices. She listens to that noise for some 3-4 minutes and then hangs up.  She tries to call him again but cannot reach him.

12:12pm Murray types a message from the same telephone to Michael Amir Williams, assistant to Michael Jackson. He is writing: “Please call me right away”. Williams calls him back at 12:13. “Where are you?” asks Murray.  Williams says, “I am in downtown”. Murray: “Get here right away. He had a bad reaction!”

1:08 pm Murray calls his girlfriend Nicole Alvarez by whom he has a son and with whom he is living in Los Angeles. In her testimony she said he told her that he was on the way to the hospital in the ambulance with Mr. Jackson and that she should not be alarmed … “because he knew she would learn this through the news.”   The paramedics who overheard the conversation recalled Murray saying:  “It’s about Michael, and it doesn’t look good.

If you ask for my interpretation of the above I will say that ever since Conrad Murray received a long and demanding email from the insurers in London at about 6 o’clock in the morning he was was extremely busy with various business matters. In addition to the insurance his patient threatened to sue him and a doctor called him for a consultation about another of his patients.

Conrad Murray simply had no time for Michael Jackson.

Beginning with the 10:14 call he is on the phone practically non-stop talking, typing emails, sending voicemails.

First Dr. Prashad calls him at 10:22 to consult him about one of his patients.

Then his employee Ruggles talks to him about the insurance at 10:34 am. He asks her to draft a letter to Bob Taylor of the insurance company, then calls her back, receives the draft email, checks it up and sends it out to London at 11:17. After settling that problem he attends to Robert Russell.

His assistant Ruggles has evidently told him about the imminent legal complaint from Robert Russell unless he answers his calls. So Murray first talks to his Las Vegas staff for 32 minutes to find out what he wants and what he can answer him in respect of his health condition. When that conversation  is over at 11:49, he immediately starts dictating a voicemail to Russell. The voicemail is registered as going out at 11:49.

He simply cannot stop talking and at 11:51 he calls his girlfriend Sade Alding. And 5-6 minutes after the conversation started he finally notices that his patient is not breathing.

By the condition of Michael’s body temperature and other signs he realizes that Michael has been dead for about an hour already. After the initial panic and some frantic movements like cutting the saline bag and putting the empty 100ml of propofol inside it to imitate the dripping he runs back and forth to the chef, calls Michael Amir Williams and starts the CPR.

Only he is late in doing it by more than an hour.

In fact Michael could have died earlier than that (and Murray wouldn’t have noticed it either), but since he is still a doctor he managed to calculate the approximate time of his death by the condition of his skin, body temperature, etc.

This is why during his interview with Detectives Martinez and Scott on June 27 he blurts out the approximate real time of Michael’s death – either because he is afraid the police will be able to determine it by themselves (and he doesn’t want to be caught in this lie) or because in his panic he isn’t able to think of anything better.

In any case the description of his real actions on that day shows that the story he related to the detectives in his June 27 interview IS A COMPLETE LIE.

Among many other things the real timeline shows that Michael was most probably asleep while Murray was attending to his business.

The sadness that Michael Jackson’s life was in the hands of this man is indescribable.

*  *  *  *  *

Cardiologist Dr. Alon Steinberg is a doctor every patient is dreaming of. If someone like him had been by Michael’s side there is no doubt that he would be alive now.

Dt. Steinberg spoke in a clear and understandable way and used his testimony not only for assessing Murray’s standard of care but for educating people on various medical issues, including the correct way to perform the CPR in case you see someone down.

In short he is a real doctor, and a doctor is always a doctor – even if he is in the witness stand at a trial.

Dr. Steinberg is one the leading cardiologists of the Californian medical board which is a government agency licencing, regulating and disciplining physicians. He himself is board certified in two areas of cardiology.

To be board certified means completing a cardiology fellowship and passing an extensive two day exam that goes over the basic knowledge and skills in cardiology.

As of 2009 Dr. Murray was not board certified despite the fact that 90% of the cardiologists who take the exam pass it – not because it is easy (it is not), but due to their good training.

At the request of the Californian medical board Dr. Steinberg reviewed Murray’s case to check whether the doctor’s actions were within the “standard of care”, which he described in a simple way  –  it is “what all ordinary doctors should do in the same situation”.

There are three possible resolutions to be passed on the standard of care by a doctor:

  •   No deviation
  •   A minor or simple deviation
  •   A severe or extreme deviation.

Dr. Steinberg said that it was the first time he encountered a case of an extreme deviation (as far as I know after his review Murray’s licence was suspended).

To make his judgment in the case Dr. Steinberg had several reports available to him but chose to use Murray’s own interview with the detectives. He said he wanted to judge him on his own words.

This was an absolutely brilliant decision as Murray’s story presented two days after June 25th was his highly polished version of the events. In short it was the best story Murray could come up with and Dr. Steinberg decided to judge Murray on what he considered his best.

Following Murray’s own account of the events Dr. Steinberg found 6 extreme deviations each of which amounted to gross negligence:

1)      The propofol was not medically indicated. It means that doctors don’t use it for rest, sleep or psychological problems

2)      It is gross negligence to get a patient under propofol without proper monitoring him, without proper equipment and personnel,and without proper physical observation of the patient

The pulse oxymeter used by Murray had no alarm and was the cheapest possible model

Dr. Steinberg gave a list of the equipment which was required for giving propofol:

  • a proper pulse oxymeter with an alarm. This device measures oxygen in the heart and rings an alarm if the oxygen gets low. Murray’s oxymeter did not have an alarm and this means that he was supposed “to sit and stare at the device every second while his patient was under propofol”, as Dr. Steinberg put it. ( Did you also recall at this point that Murray did not only fail to stare at the device and monitor Michael but was talking on the phone for hours on end?)
  • an automated blood pressure cuff was to check the patient under propofol at least every 5 minutes and this was not done either. Murray had a manual cuff but it was not in use

    Murray didn’t even take the manual blood pressure device from a cardboard box

    (remember the picture of it being packed in several bags and a box?)

  • there was no EKG machine to monitor the heart rhythm to avoid arrhythmia (any rhythm different from normal is arrhythmia)
  • another requirement was a mask with an ambu bag for pushing oxygen into lungs in case the patient stops breathing. It is interesting that Murray had this device but he didn’t use it – it was lying on the floor. When Walgren asked him how he knew it wasn’t in use Dr.

    an ambu bag for pushing oxygen into lungs was lying on the floor

    Steinberg explained that he took it from Murray’s own statement to the police where he said he did mouth to mouth but didn’t use the ambu bag.

  • A hard board was to be placed under the patient in case CPR was needed. If CPR is done on a soft bed and the patient’s heart is pushed down by the required 2 inches, it is useless as the body is just being displaced down –  so a hard surface is a must

Many other things are required like a back-up battery in case lights go out, a tube for intubating a patient directly into lungs if the mask is no help and some small device which keeps the tongue from obstructing the airway during sedation – in short at least a dozen important things are needed for proper monitoring a patient under propofol.

3)      Another extreme deviation was inadequate preparation for the emergency situation.

When you do propofol you need to be prepared for any foreseeable consequence and Murray was not. Propofol can very easily pass from mild sedation to moderate, and from moderate to deep sedation (a stage when there is no breathing). It has a “narrow threshold” as Dr.Steinberg described it so a patient can pass from one edge to another in no time and get over-sedated.

Let me make a comment here.

Now we know that instead of using a proper dosing device to measure every tiny drop of propofol Murray used vials with slits in them so that propofol dripped down freely. With so much excessive propofol poured into his system nightly Michael could possibly experience breathing stops very often –  probably even every night. This could be the reason why his health was deteriorating very quickly under Murray’s “care”.

And what happens when breathing stops Dr. Steinberg explained in the next point of extreme deviation from standard care.

4)      The fourth extreme deviation was Murray’s improper care during the respiratory arrest or stop of breathing.

Since this is one of the crucial points in the testimony I’ll follow Dr. Steinberg’s words in even more detail.  It made me realize that Michael was dying slowly which is a terrible thing to imagine, but on the other hand it means that if Murray had called for help at once Michael could have been saved.

  • Michael’s case was not a cardiac arrest –which is when the heart stops beating and contracting. In cases of a cardiac arrest doctors do chest compressions (CPR) to make the blood flow through the body while they wait for a defibrillator to arrive. Defibrillator is used for making an electric shock and restarting the heart.
  • Michael’s case was a respiratory arrest. It means that he stopped breathing – but since there was still some oxygen in the lungs, his heart went on beating. However when the oxygen slows down, the heart starts to get excited and the heart rhythm goes higher. Eventually, due to the absence of oxygen the heart slowly weakens and finally stops. The electricity is still in the heart and can be registered (it is called pulseless electrical activity), but there is no heartbeat and no pulse. At the final stage electricity also dies and you see a flat line on the monitor.

Excerpt from Murray’s interview

What is important is that at the moment of respiratory depression, when the heart is beating like mad, CPR is not done at all – it is oxygen which the heart needs, not CPR!

And here Dr. Steinberg referred to Murray’s own words in that interview.

Murray said he left Michael’s side when the oxygen was “in the 90s” which is normal. He said he was away for two minutes.

When he came back his patient was not breathing and his heart rate was a hundred and twenty two (122) which is a lot.  Murray says he checked the pulse using a pulse oxymeter – and this device won’t detect a pulse unless there is a blood pressure, so according to Murray’s own words when he returned from the bathroom Michael’s heart was still beating.

A lie is added to a lie and multiplied by a lie. What night is he talking about? It is 11 o’clock in the morning and the whole stuff is in the house!

Dr. Steinberg says that at this moment Murray should have called 911. After calling for help he should have tried to arouse Michael, put an oxygen mask on his face and start pushing oxygen into the lungs via an ambu bag. Simultaneously he was to inject Flumazenal as soon as possible in order to reverse the effect of the benzodiazepines given earlier.

And what did he do? Instead of those three steps – dialling 911, oxygen and Flumazenal – Murray, according to his own words, started doing chest compressions which was inexcusable as Dr. Steinberg put it.

David Walgren shows the way to slide the patient down

The other factor was that his CPR was of poor quality. He shouldn’t have done it on the soft surface and with one hand too. He should have slipped Michael to the floor and with his size Murray it was no problem to slide down a man who weighed 136lbs.

In fact each of those actions was an extreme deviation for standard of care but Dr. Steinberg regarded it just as one point.

5)      The fifth extreme deviation was Murray’s failure to summon immediate help.

Dr. Steinberg said, “It’s basic knowledge, you don’t have to be a health-care professional — when you see someone down, you have to call 911.”

When Murray saw Michael not breathing he knew that he had no equipment, no personnel and no necessary medications – so he needed help quick and should have called 911.

“there was no telephone”

And the delay in calling 911 was significant. According to Murray’s own words first he did CPR and mouth-to-mouth, then he called Mr. Amir Williams and even then he didn’t ask even Williams to call 911.

The paramedics were only four minutes away, so instead of that huge 20 minute delay he could have got help within 4 minutes only.

Dr. Steinberg says there is statistics that for every minute of a delay there is a much less chance that the patient will survive. In such situations every minute counts as even if the heart survives a long delay may result in a permanent damage to the brain (if it stays too long without oxygen).

Dr. Steinberg described Murray’s behaviour as bizarre – he had a chance to call 911 but called Michael’s assistant instead?

6)      The sixth extreme deviation was Murray’s failure to maintain proper medical records.

The records are kept not only for insurance or possible litigation but for providing better care of the patient, registering the history of each procedure, reaction to medications, lab results, etc. However Murray did not document a single thing.

If he had kept them those records could have been handled to the emergency room doctors when they arrived at the UCLA hospital and could have told them what he was unable to say when he was asked to.

In conclusion Dr. Steinberg said that all those breaches directly contributed to Michael Jackson’s untimely death. If it had not been for them he would be alive now.

Same as with Dr. Rogers, Walgren asked Dr. Steinberg a question whether it would matter IF THE PATIENT SELF-ADMINISTERED some medication. Dr. Steiberg confirmed that all those extreme deviations WOULD STILL APPLY.

  • “When you monitor a patient, you never leave his side, especially after giving propofol,” Steinberg said. “It’s like leaving a baby sleeping on your kitchen countertop. You would never do it because there’s a small — a very, very small — chance that the baby could fall or grab a knife or something.”

You’ll find the above Dr. Steinberg’s testimony in this video:


The cross-examination by Flanagan was a rare circus which is difficult to explain.

I’ll start with Murray’s interview of June 27 where he implied that Michael stopped breathing at 11 o’clock.

The detectives were so much taken in by his story that neither of them asked a question why he found the patient not breathing at 11.00 but didn’t call for help until 12.20.  Since they didn’t talk to Alvarez they assumed it was the doctor who called 911, but the huge gap of an hour and a half in Murray’s story did not raise a red flag for them. They simply did not notice it.

However Murray later realized that he had pronounced a damning verdict on himself by revealing to the police how long he had not been calling 911. So he changed his story by shifting all the events by an hour forward – probably explaining it by his “poor estimation of time” at that moment.

By shifting the events forward Murray turned his totally criminal negligence into something more plausible as now the time of his lingering over the patient was reduced from an hour and 20 min. to just 20 minutes.

Dr. Steinberg based his review of Murray’s actions on the above Murray’s (false) account of the events.  However since the defense’s primary goal was to neutralize Dr. Steinberg’s brilliant review at least in some way, they chose to show that it was inconsistent with the real timeline and was therefore not as perfect as it was.

It does not matter that the real events and real timeline are ten times as bad as Murray’s own version – what does matter to the defense at the moment is to confuse Dr. Steinberg and the jury with strange questions and pretend that the truth is being told by the defense and not the prosecution witness.

Dr. Steinberg firmly stuck to Murray’s own words and proved that even Murray’s favorable account of the events showed that his actions were totally incompetent and a delay in calling 911 was criminal. Even if the delay was no longer than 20 minutes it was still inexcusably long – Murray was to call 911 immediately.

The paramedics arrived in 4 minutes and if the patient was in a state Murraydescribed it to the police they were still able to save Michael Jackson. His heart was still beating and all they needed was to give him enough oxygen.

Flanagan asked him how he knew the heart was beating. Steinberg said that according to Murray’s words he felt a pulse of 122 beats.

Flanagan noted that the pulse was thready. Steinberg explained that it was because the blood pressure was low (but it was still there, so the heart was still pumping blood).

Flanagan said it could be the state of “pulseless electrical activity”. Steinberg said that it couldn’t, because “pulseless electrical activity” is by definition NO pulse – while Murray said he could feel it. The heart was asking for oxygen and he should have used an ambu bag.

Flanagan asked how he knew it was not used. Steinberg said that Murray did not mention it in his statement and he was basing his conclusions on Murray’s own words.

Flanagan started playing with the idea that Dr. Steinberg was basing his report not only on Murray’s words, but on “other sources”. Steinberg said that he was aware of some other information but he didn’t use it in his review.

Flanagan ventured to say that Murray was away from the patient’s bed for a period longer than 2 minutes. Steinberg agreed. His estimation was that it takes the heart to reach the condition described by Murray as “a thready pulse which is122 beats” longer than two minutes – it takes time for the oxygen to go down and the heart rate to go up, so Murray was probably away for several minutes longer than a mere two minutes.

Flanagan suddenly asked a question which was least expected of him – and what if it wasn’t two minutes? what if the patient had not been breathing  for 10 minutes? 15 minutes? 20 minutes? Steinberg said that from Murray’s own words Mr. Jackson  still had a pulse and therefore he was still savable.

Flanagan asked what Murray should have started first – dial 911 or do chest compressions? Steinberg replied that he shouldn’t have done chest compressions at all and should have dialed 911 immediately.

Flanagan wondered “So shouldn’t have Murray tried to save his patient?”  Steinberg replied that a health provider is allowed to do a short resuscitation effort for only two minutes before calling 911. Seeking professional help was the only logical thing to do – he had no life-saving equipment and no personnel, so needed someone who had all the necesary tools. But instead he called Williams.

Flanagan said that Murray went downstairs to the chef to call for help, and Steinberg said he shouldn’t have – it was a severe deviation from standard of care. In such a situation every minute counts. And the time he was calling security and chef he should have spent on calling 911 instead.

Flanagan asked if Murray called for help in 5 minutes, would it still be a deviation? Steinberg said “Yes”. “And if it was 3 minutes?” “Yes”. “So that one minute is a severe violation? “Yes, sir”, said Steinberg.

Flanagan asked him if he knew that the landline telephone was not working. Steinberg said that Murray had a cell phone.

Flanagan said that Murray could not waste time on explaining the situation to 911. Steinberg said that the only thing that was required of him was to say: “I am Dr. Murray. I am at Carolwood Drive, 100. Come now”.

At here Flanagan began to do the impossible – I could harldly believe my ears when he suddenly started telling the truth: “But the paramedics said that he was cold to touch and dead for 20-30 minutes”. Steinberg agreed that when Murray came back from calling the chef he had lost the pulse, but even at that stage Michael was still savable. But altogether Murray wasted at least 26 minutes if the time was to be calculated from around noon time.

At this point  Flanagan disclosed the secret why he had been chewing up his impossible questions for so long. Now his theory is that Murray could not properly estimate time (so the death could have occurred earlier) and since Murray was mistaken it could affect the results of Dr. Steinberg’s report: “If he is mistaken in his assessment you would be mistaken too?”

It is my personal opinion that the defense should not be allowed to so willfully misguide the jury and the public. What he is essentially saying is that it was a mistake to analyze Murray’s lies. Murray lied, Dr. Steinberg analyzed his lies and proved that his actions were criminal negligence even in the case of a favorable (and false) picture Murray had painted, and now the defense says the Murray made a “mistake”, so the report is no longer valid?  But the truth is a hundred times worse than Murray’s fictional story!

He first lied one thing – that he noticed Michael stop breathing at 11.00 and then wasted a full hour and a half doing God knows what.  He then lied another thing – that he noticed the patient not breathing at around 12.00 and presumably immediately started working (wrong way) on his body. And  the truth is a third thing – he was so busy with his phone calls that he simply did not notice that his patient had died! And he noticed it only at noontime when the situation was already beyond repair.

If Dr. Steinberg found extreme deviations of care based on Murray’s favorable story – which said that he was away from Michael Jackson’s room for 2 minutes only and had 20 minutes for calling 911 –  how much more damning his review would have been if Murray had said to the police that he didn’t monitor Michael for an hour and a half?

The questions Flanagan asked of Steinberg were so impossible and his whole line of defense for Murray so absurd that I decided to transcribe part of it:

– Do you know what happened between 11 and 12?

– No.

– Do you know how long he continued to watch Mr. Jackson?

– No.

– When Mr. Jackson was found – your indication being around 12 o’clock – do you know what Dr. Murray did?

– At unknown time he gave him propofol and since then, he says “I sat there and watched him long enough period that I felt comfortable”, so we don’t know how long he monitored him for afterwards. And then he needed to go to the bathroom.”

– Do you know anything else he did between 11 and 12?

– No.

– Did he state the time he went to the bathroom? What time it was?

– No, he didn’t.

– When he came and found Mr. Jackson not breathing would you be of the opinion that based on your records it would round 12 o’clock?

– If that was what was established, yes.

– Do you have any idea about Mr. Jackson’s time of death?

– He was pronounced a couple of hours later, but he was clinically dead when he arrived at the emergency room.

– Did you read the paramedics’ report where they stated that at 12.26 he’d been dead for a period of time longer that 20 or 30 minutes?

– I’ve read it but I didn’t incorporate it in this report. I just used Dr. Murray’s (testimony). His own words.

– At 12 o’clock was Michael Jackson savable?

– If you are asking me if Michael Jackson was savable when Dr. Murray found him, YES.

– What were the chances of him being able to save him?

– Walgren: Assuming that he was gone for only two minutes.

– Based upon Dr. Murray finding him not breathing and his eyes open dilated at 12 o’clock?

– He did not find him with dilated pupils. At 12 o’clock – Dr. Murray left him for two minutes – he was alive, supposedly at 11.58. So he left him for only two minutes and you what happens – he would have stopped breathing and there is still an oxygen level and it takes a few minutes for the oxygen to go down and for the heart rate to go up. So the fact that he left him for only two minutes he was savable.

We do conscious sedation and sometimes it happens that patients stop breathing, so we use the bag mask, get them oxygen, trying to arouse them, trying to reverse whatever medications that we give. And he was definitely savable at that point. Also he had a delay in calling for help and if they had gotten there 6 minutes later Mr. Jackson would have been alive.

– You use the term 2 minutes?

– That’s what Dr. Murray said.

– Do you think that he was gone from Michael Jackson’s side for only two minutes?

– Estimating from this report he was gone [for two minutes]according to what I know what can happen in two minutes. Probably I would guess a few more minutes than two. But I am trusting Dr. Murray’s own words and his testimony.

– And Dr. Murray said that he’d gone maybe at 11 o’clock.

– It’d be nice to have medical records and documentation. It is standard of care to have the documentation to state what exactly happened. And there was none.  So I had to use what Dr. Murray is telling me and he said two minutes. 

– But you don’t think it was two minutes, do you?

– My report is based upon those two minutes. So I am assuming  it is two minutes.

– So if it is not two minutes you have a different answer?

– Walgren: Objection.

– Judge: There are a way too many variables. The objection is sustained.

–  Let’s assume that Dr. Murray was gone a longer time than two minutes.

– All my testimony is based on what’s written – that he was on a drip and that he was gone for two minutes, you want me to pretend that he only gave him 25 ml and that he was gone for more than two minutes, is that right?

– You know for a fact that Dr. Murray was gone for longer than two minutes.

– No, I don’t.

– Have you heard of the phone calls that he made?

– I heard about the phone calls. And I don’t comment on the phone calls because I only took his words. If you are telling me he was on the phone and are giving me this information, he shouldn’t have been on the phone and it just tells me that maybe he was on a propofol infusion because you can’t talk on the phone when someone got just 25 ml of propofol.

Why would I talk on the phone and wake Mr. Jackson up? That just tells me that he was on a propofol infusion and again, you don’t ever leave anyone who got propofol, you don’t leave him unmonitored, and you shouldn’t have given him propofol in the first place for sleep.

The above point about the propofol infusion is extremely important.

Murray claims that he gave Michael only 25 mg (2.5ml) of propofol, but Dr. Steinberg is sure that after giving the initial 25 mg Murray put Michael on a drip. When talking about it to the detectives Murray even corrected one of them, who mentioned only a dose, by saying: “Dose and drip”.

No matter how Flanagan tried to shatter Dr. Steinberg’s position he was unmovable on that point – Michael Jackson was put on a drip that night too.

He is most probably right. That empty 100ml vial (found in the IV bag) is still unaccounted for, same as a full hour which passed from 11.00 until noontime (which could be spent on dripping).

And if it was a drip, we know that Murray didn’t use any dosing device – he simply made a slit in the vial stopper which let the propofol freely flow into the body. And while Michael was on this makeshift uncontrollable drip Murray went about his business of telephoning and emailing, leaving Michael unattended for a full hour or more!

Not only didn’t he do the proper dosing and was overfilling his patient with propofol, but he was also not monitoring the process either!

And some say he is not guilty of murder? It is the same as non-stop filling your car with gas and not really looking for an hour and a half at what’s going on there and saying later you are not responsible for the explosion when the whole street was burnt out due to  your negligence!

Falaganan made his last attempt to save Murray by suggesting that when Michael didn’t wake up after the initial 25ml of propofol Murray thought he was sleeping in a natural way as “he was tired” and Murray didn’t want to awaken him. Steinberg replied to it that propofol is not intended for sending the patient to sleep at all – it is used for anesthesia which should wear off at an estimated time and if this time comes and the patient is not waking up it is a sign for a grave alarm:

– He has given it to him for sleep and after 4 to 7 minutes he continues to sleep and Dr. Murray continues to watch him. Is it you testimony that he should have tried to wake up?

– Absolutely. When you give propofol you should always assess the sedation level and you do not leave the patient unmonitored until they are back to the pre-sedation level. You do not give propofol for sleep, and that’s an extreme deviation of standard of care.

So if you tell me that there was no infusion and he gave him 25mg of propofol and the guy was still sleeping after 7 or 8 minutes I’d be concerned that something is going on and you absolutely stay there and monitor them until they wake. You don’t leave their side.

If you give propofol and afterwards they are still sleeping, there is something wrong. You need to arouse the patient and you need to figure out the level of sedation, because something could be going wrong.

– Dr. Murray spent 9 hours trying to get him to sleep and now you tell me he should have awakened him?

– Absolutely.  

The same question was asked of Dr. Nader Kamangar, who is a critical care/sleep medicine physician and an advisor to the CA Medical board.

The doctor answered that in the event the patient was still sleeping after the initial 25ml dose of propofol, it is his obligation to make sure that the sleep is not the effect of the drug. “You cannot make exceptions here”, he said.

“So will you wake him up?” asked Flanagan. Dr. Kamangar said that it would be his obligation to do it as the well-being of the patient is a priority and if there is a potential danger the doctor is obliged to make sure that the patient isn’t having a significant problem. He said, “We have to prioritize”.

Flanagan tortured Dr. Kamangar for some 3 hours or more with the same chewed up questions. The testimony started on Day 11 and continued in Day 12 when Flanagan asked the doctor what he would do first if he (Flanagan) fell on the floor in the court room – call 911 or render him help?

Prosecutor David Walgren reacted to Flanagan’s question by asking Dr. Kamangar: “If Mr. Flanagan fell on the floor, would you wait 12 minutes and then call his legal secretary and ask her to call 911?” The question was sustained but produced the desired thunderous effect.

Same as Dr. Steinberg Dr. Kamangar stressed that even in (the unlikely) case the patient self-medicated himself with an excessive amount of propofol Dr. Murray was still responsible for his death.

I didn’t understand Dr. Kamangar very well and will rely mostly on the articles to tell his testimony:

Doctor: Drug ‘cocktail’ killed Michael Jackson

By LINDA DEUTSCH

updated 10/13/2011 10:16:41 PM ET

LOS ANGELES — Dr. Conrad Murray’s use of a cocktail of drugs on Michael Jackson as he struggled to fall asleep on the day he died was a “recipe for disaster” and ultimately caused his death, a UCLA sleep therapy expert testified Thursday.

Dr. Nader Kamangar described Murray’s treatment as “unethical, disturbing and beyond comprehension.”

“To summarize, Mr. Jackson was receiving very inappropriate therapy in a home setting, receiving very potent therapies without monitoring,” Kamangar said.

He said diazepam (Valium), lorazepam (Ativan) and midazolam (Versed) were given to the sleepless star during a 10-hour period throughout the night and morning.

“This cocktail was a recipe for disaster,” Kamangar said.

Noting the addition of propofol (Dipravan), a powerful anesthetic used in surgeries, Flanagan asked: “Could this have caused death?’

“Absolutely,” Kamangar said. “Absolutely.”

The witness, one of the experts who evaluated Murray’s actions for the California Medical Board, expressed dismay about the drugs Murray gave the pop star, his failure to immediately call for help, and his lack of monitoring and record-keeping.

Murray was unable to produce any written records on his treatment of Jackson, Kamangar noted.

“It is an egregious violation of the standard of care when you are using sedatives like propofol and you are not writing it down,” Kamangar answered.

Kamangar was the third prosecution expert to criticize the conduct ofMurray. He said his first mistake was using propofol to treat insomnia, calling it an unacceptable application of the drug.

He said Jackson’s demand for the drug — the subject of previous testimony — was not a sufficient reason to give it. He also suggested Murray should have done a physical examination, taken a history from his patient about his insomnia, and called in other medical experts if necessary to evaluate the problem.

“The most important thing he should have done is call for help,” Kamangar said.

He said Murray’s interview with police made it clear that he waited too long to call for an ambulance when he found Jackson not breathing.

On Wednesday,Murray’s defense team announced they were dropping a claim that was the centerpiece of their case — that Jacksons wallowed additional propofol when Murray was out of the room. Flanagan did not bring up self-dosing on Thursday. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44886109#.Tps7h5svDGY

Sleep Expert — Dr. Nader Kamangar Testifies, Day 2
Updated 10/13/11 at 8:45 AM

Dr. Kamangar took the stand again today to continue his testimony, insisting he would never cave to a patient’s drug demands.
* Kamangar also said Murray should have ruled out other possible problems that could have caused MJ’s insomnia before loading him up with a boatful of drugs. 
* He told the court, the first thing Murray should have done was to have MJ write a “sleep diary” to figure out what the underlying problem was.
* Flanagan asked Kamangar about a study showing Propofol is safe to use for insomnia. Kamangar said the study was done in a monitored area after secondary problems have been ruled out … he insisted it’s incomprehensible to use Propofol at home.
* Kamangar said using Lorazepam to treat insomnia is inappropriate. 
* Kamangar told Flanagan that — based on the transcripts from the police interview — he believed Murray gave MJ 25 mg of Propofol PLUS an additional unspecified amount through an IV drip on June 25. 
* Kamangar said Murray subjected MJ to an experiment by giving him Propofol to treat his insomnia.

So Dr. Kamanger also thinks that Murray put Michael Jackson on a drip that night! And he also said that Lorazepam given by Murray was inappropriate for treating insomnia! The only way Lorazepam could be used was orally (and not as IV), for a short term and as an auxilliary to an anti-depressant to address Michael’s anxiety over the tour (and AEG’s nastiness in making ultimatums to him – you remember that they threatened to pull the plug if he missed a single rehearsal).

A couple of other things stood out for me in Dr. Kamangar’s testimony:

  •         a gross negligence still remains a gross negligence even if the patient survives it. It doesn’t matter that the result was positive – the standard of care was still not adhered to. (It was a life-threatening situation which didn’t bring about a tragedy simply by a miracle).
  •         it is imperative for a physician to observe his patient the whole time while he is under propofol. In Murray’s case there was a period of time when the patient was left alone – which is another extreme deviation. Continuous observation is all the more important if there is no equipment to monitor the patient.
  •         Propofol is a powerful drug with a fine line between mild sedation and moderate sedation and between moderate and deep sedation (when there is no breathing), so it is very easy to pass from one stage to another. At the time when there was no proper dosing equipment nurses used to count each drop of propofol in order to determine how many milliliters were given per minute (Needless to say, Murray did not only count drops but probably let propofol stream down from a hole he made in the vial rubber).
  •        Murray’s ability to remember facts does not compensate for his failure to keep records. Records are needed also for registering tendencies and charting various data. If the blood pressure changes from 180/100 to 100/60 within some 5 minutes it is a sign of a catastrophic scenario, so recording a tendency is a must. (Murray did not make any records and did not measure the blood pressure either – the device was not even opened)
  •         When Murray said to the detectives that the level of oxygen in Michael’s blood was “in the high 90’s, 90 percent” it was an ignorant way of saying it as these are profoundly different figures and there is no way to know what level he is referring to.
  •         Not giving oxygen and not calling help for the full 20 minutes does irreversible damage to the brain. The first 4-5 minutes are critical for restoring respiration, after that the brain cells start dying. (This means that Murray’s insistence on “saving Michael’s life” at the hospital some two hours after his clinical death was meant for show only –  the most it could do was turning Michael into a vegetable.)
  •         unfortunately the Demerol under which Klein was making his cosmetic procedures on Michael’s face is capable of producing insomnia, as it activates the nerves and creates more stimulation.  This could be at least one of the secondary reasons for Michael’s insomnia.
  •         Murray should have made a diagnostic evaluation of Michael’s insomnia (before boldly handling the problem he had no idea of).

Let me repeat here what I’ve earlier said in a comment. Murray never looked into the reasons for Michael’s insomnia. He simply jumped at the opportunity to make big money and never thought of rendering real help to Michael. He probably never knew how to handle this malady, but took it upon himself to treat it despite his total incompetence in this area. And this is his first major crime against his patient.

We know that the first shipment of propofol was made as early as April 6. Considering that fulfilling the order required some time it means that the discussion took place sometime in the second half of March. At that time they still had 3 months at their disposal for proper treatment of Michael’s insomnia.  Instead Murray immediately agreed and pumped Michael with so much of it by June that everyone started noticing that Michael’s health began quickly deteriorating.

And we don’t even know how Murray was administering Propofol. Most probably it was the same substandard way he did it on June 25 – with no proper dosing device and not closely monitoring him – which is why Michael was probably experiencing temporary breathing problems every night.

And if his breathing stopped every night and each time the heart was beating like mad asking for oxygen and each time the situation was alleviated by finally ventilating oxygen into Michael’s lungs, it means that Michael was dying every night for those 2 months.

And all this because Murray simply did not know how to properly administer propofol – he is no anesthesiologist and doesn’t know that every additional drop there may be critical for the patient. And the fact that he agreed to administer propofol not knowing how to do it is his second major crime .

And this in addition to all the craziness that took place on June 25 – neglecting his patient, not calling 911, doing improper CPR, etc., all of which is a separate crime requiring capital punishment.

As he didn’t know what an extremely dangerous thing he was doing he simply made slits in the vials and propofol freely flowed down. And it was a miracle that Michael was able to wake up after gallons of propofol poured into him in such an uncontrolled way. It is one thing to wake up after you’ve received a minimal dose given by a proper anesthesiologist and it is another thing to wake up after Murray oversedated you with surplus propofol night after night.

And again, if at the very start of it Murray had referred Michael to sleep specialists and if during those 3 months of preparations before the show the problem had not been resolved without administering propofol, it was for the council of physicians to decide what to do further.

Let me also say what will surely go counter to the opinion of the medical community. It is easy for them to talk – they were not suffering like Michael was. He had to do the shows and they had to find a way to help him. And if it came to the worst I do not rule out that an unconventional method like propofol could have probably be used –  of course in a hospital setting or at home, but with all the equipment present and a qualified team attending to the process.

What I mean is that a doctor has two duties to his patient – he cannot do harm to him but he cannot abandon him in his problem either. And we know of cases when desperate patients agree to experimental ways of treating their health problems. In my opinion experimental treatment was possible – only it should have been done under full and even double medical control.

And this is something which the incompetent, careless and insolent “doctor” Murray simply had no idea of.

*  *  *  *  *

A short note about the experimental studies of using propofol for treating insomnia. John M. Flanagan of the defense referred to a study made in 2010 which provided the first data that propofol was  indeed successful in treating insomnia.  In that experiment 64 patients were given theurapeutic doses which sent them into deep sedation for 2 hours for 5 days running. 6 months later doctors made additional tests and found that the condition of all patients improved.

Dr. Steinberg and Dr. Kamangar said that those were experimental studies only which were made under full control of doctors. Its results were very limited and before (and if ever) propofol becomes recommended treatment it should first undergo extensive research the results of which should get the approval of the Medical Board.

In any case  – when Murray was giving propofol to Michael Jackson he could not know of those studies as it was published a year later. And the progress the medical science is making does not release Murray of his negligence which was so gross that it looked more like a murder than medical treatment provided by a doctor.

129 Comments leave one →
  1. December 8, 2011 4:40 pm

    “I want to thank your entire Michael Jackson Community and Fans!”– Alon Steinberg

    All men of integrity are the same. They thank others when it is them who should be thanked. He was just being honest and truthful, and performed his duty.

    If only people like that had been around Michael when he was alive!

    Like

  2. December 8, 2011 3:09 pm

    “Mr. Taylor,

    My name is Alon Steinberg. I’m the Cardiologist that testified at the Conrad Murray trial on October 12th, 2011. I have just received a beautiful plant from the MJJcommunity and want to thank everyone so much. Since my testimony have felt a lot of love from Michael Jackson fans. I have received a hundreds of thanks you cards and messages from all over the world. I want to thank your entire Michael Jackson Community and Fans!

    I was wondering if you can post a appreciative thanks from me on your site.

    Alon Steinberg, MD FACC

    Ventura, CA

    http://www.mjjcommunity.com/the-people-v-s-conrad-murray/short-message-of-thanks-from-dr-alon-steinberg

    Like

  3. Jovana permalink
    October 28, 2011 12:42 pm

    Unfortunately no justice for Michael. Involuntary manslaughter is a slap on the wrist and Murray knew exaclty what he was doing. I doubt that Murray gave propofol to Michael every night, if he did Michael would have been gone long before June 25.

    Like

  4. TatumMarie permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:42 am

    It doesn’t matter about the Demerol because it wasn’t found in Michael’s autopsy, APPARENTLY HE HAD IT UNDER CONTROL.

    Like

  5. Carm permalink
    October 24, 2011 2:59 am

    I decided to have another look at the interview between Dr. Drew and Dick Zimmerman because it’s priceless. I am disgusted to see that it has now been edited, at least on Youtube. They have left out the part where Dr. Drew suggests that something wasn’t right with Michael because there had been “pedophilia charges” against him. (Mr. Zimmerman was offended by his remarks and that’s what prompted him to read out a rant he had prepared ahead of time.) It’s my opinion that this was left out to make Dr. Drew not look so bad. Since this was a live interview they (CNN?) couldn’t do it before it went on the air, so they did it later. (hoping no one would notice?) So now the new version makes it look as if Mr. Zimmerman was just making a general comment out of the blue about the media that didn’t have anything to do with Dr. Drew. Disgusting.

    Like

  6. lynande51 permalink
    October 18, 2011 8:28 am

    @Teva I have thought for a long time that it was probably Percocet I’d Vicodin that the Dr was giving Michael in
    1993.They were the popular ones back then and still are now.Percocet is a combination of oxycodoneand tylenol and Vicodin is tylenol with hydromorphone or Dilaudid.

    Like

  7. lynande51 permalink
    October 18, 2011 8:08 am

    I am not sure where the defense came up with the 6500 mg number and I believe that it was corrected later in the day to 650mg. Every injection that Klein gives is considered an IM injection,that means that the botox and Restylane would be an IM injection. The defense want to use records of his that list all of those injection.In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter if Michael was having.g trouble sleeping from any secondary reason.What difference does it make why he had insomnia? You still dont treat it with propofol in the house.They are somehow trying to legitimize his treatment and they can’t.

    Like

  8. Teva permalink
    October 18, 2011 2:32 am

    “Because he had a Demerol problem in the past and I find that strange that Klein gave Demerol to a Demerol ex addict.” – Shelly

    I was going to save this comment for a later date, but I am glad you brought it up because I too was puzzle by that. Unless MJ never had a demeral addiction, but was addicted to some other painkiller. IDK. However, if it was demerol then klein was reprehensible.

    Like

  9. Deborah permalink
    October 18, 2011 2:11 am

    The defense is now in freefall. Calculations are off, timelines do not make sense. Today was very important for the prosecution. Nikki (Gatorgirl) will be blogging about it. I’ll grab the link if I see it but actually am also going to ask Nikki to comment here.

    A quietly astounding day.

    Like

  10. October 18, 2011 2:10 am

    “Because he had a Demerol problem in the past and I find that strange that Klein gave Demerol to a Demerol ex addict.”

    Then it is all the more the doctor’s problem than Michael’s.

    Like

  11. October 18, 2011 1:34 am

    “Shelly, I also have a question to you. Why is it that people preper to talk about Demerol as Michael’s problem while it was a doctor who administered it to him? “

    Because he had a Demerol problem in the past and I find that strange that Klein gave Demerol to a Demerol ex addict.

    But my question is more linked to the fact that they are going to bring the Demerol in that trial next week.

    Like

  12. October 18, 2011 1:29 am

    “If it’s a lot it would mean he had aDemerol problem but the witness couldn’t say that based on Klein’s record.”

    No, it does not mean that Michael had a Demerol problem. Klein said that Michael never asked for it and it was Klein’s decision to use Demerol during those cosmetic procedures. Here are some quotes from Klein’s interview with Harvey Levin:

    Levin Did he ever ask you for Demerol?
    Klein No.
    Levin He never said, “I want Demerol”?
    Klein No..

    Levin …you prescribed Demerol numerous times.
    Klein I never prescribed Demerol.
    Levin You administered.
    Klein I administered Demerol because you have to understand that the procedures I do are painful injections and I would give him…I would say I would take an hour-and-a-half to inject him and I would do somewhere around… oh, well over a hundred facial injections on him and unless I sedated him… He was very, believe it or not, needle-phobic when you got to needles on his face, and I mean, did you ever have injections in your face?
    Levin Not really.
    Klein Okay. It’s really a painful procedure, so, I mean, you had to stop him from squirming. You had to go to his eyes. The scalp injections were very, very painful, which I had to do because also I had to reduce a great deal of scarring on him. So what I used drugs for, it was not to give him drugs. I mean, I used drugs to relieve the pain when I did a procedure. So we have to make a big difference. If you’re having a surgical procedure, and these are really minor surgical procedures, with my length of time it takes for me to do it, it’s not minor, you have to use some amount of drug but when you look at how much I used, it’s not anything compared to the amount that some other doctors give. I didn’t give him bags of it to take home as some doctors do.
    Levin But repeated dosage of Demerol over a period of time?
    Klein Yeah, but you have to take the total dose of Demerol that I used over the period of time I used it on him and it was not an immense dose because we went down finally…

    Shelly, I also have a question to you.

    Why is it that people preper to talk about Demerol as Michael’s problem while it was a doctor who administered it to him? Michael never asked for it and it was solely the doctor’s choice – but no one says that the problem was connected with the doctor, while everyone says that the problem was connected with the patient?

    Since when has the drug chosen by a doctor become a patient’s problem?

    If you are administered a certain kind of anesthesia during a surgery does it mean that YOU are having a problem with it or does it mean that it was a DOCTOR who decided to use it?

    And if he chose it incorrectly is it his problem or yours?

    Like

  13. Tatum permalink
    October 18, 2011 12:51 am

    We have to remember that TMZ speculated that those were demorol shots. That theory was never confirmed. The only way the defense can argue is if they attack the coroner because they have no case.

    Like

  14. October 17, 2011 11:04 pm

    ““Is 6500 milligrammes a lot?”

    I think that 6500 milligrams is a lot”

    It sounds a lot but my question was link to that

    “Kamangar said he reviewed Klein’s records but could not determine from the documents whether Jackson had a “Demerol problem.” But the drug could have been a factor in Jackson’s insomnia, Kamangar said”

    If it’s a lot it would mean he had aDemerol problem but the witness couldn’t say that based on Klein’s record.

    Like

  15. October 17, 2011 10:50 pm

    “Is 6500 milligrammes a lot?”

    I think that 6500 milligrams is a lot, only I am not sure that we can believe the defense when they say it was in Klein’s records and within the 3 months period too.

    TMZ earlier said the records showed 51 injections of demerol during the cosmetic procedures and Klein said that the last injection on June 22 was the biggest one – it was 100ml. So even if each injection was 100ml, altogether it makes 5100ml. And if they were half that dose it would be 2500ml.

    The important point is that no Demerol or its metabolites were found in the blood, though very little time passed since the last injection.

    So there is something wrong with the defense’s calculations. Same thing as with Lorazepam – the defense says one thing (based on the findings of a private lab), and the prosecution says another thing (based on the official sources).

    Like

  16. October 17, 2011 10:36 pm

    Michael Jackson doctor’s trial to resume Wednesday
    By ANTHONY McCARTNEY – AP Entertainment Writer | AP – 13 mins ago

    LOS ANGLES (AP) — A judge delayed resumption of the trial of the doctor charged in Michael Jackson’s death until Wednesday to give defense attorneys time to analyze new testing that coroner’s officials recently conducted.

    Testimony had been canceled on Monday so that the prosecution’s final witness, Dr. Steven Shafer, could deal with family affairs after his father died last week.

    Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor agreed to delay the case against Dr. Conrad Murray for another day after defense attorneys said they needed time to prepare for how to deal with testing the coroner’s office conducted last week on the level of the sedative lorazepam in Jackson’s system.

    Murray’s attorneys have suggested that authorities ignored the effects lorazapam may have had on the pop superstar and said their own testing suggested Jackson had taken eight pills before his death.

    Coroner’s officials determined Jackson died from a lethal dose of the anesthetic propofol. Authorities contend Murray gave Jackson the fatal dose and other sedatives in the singer’s bedroom to try to help him sleep. Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter.

    Deputy District Attorney David Walgren said the defense lab’s results combine two numbers to make it seem like there was more lorazepam in Jackson’s system than may have been present. He said the coroner’s tests show a much smaller amount was actually in Jackson’s system and are inconsistent with the theory that he swallowed several pills.

    Lead defense attorney Ed Chernoff said he had numerous questions about the coroner’s testing and had asked the agency to conduct the same test before the trial began but was told it couldn’t be done. He said he didn’t yet know what impact it will have on how Murray’s defense case is presented.

    Defense attorneys are expected to begin calling their own witnesses, including experts, later this week.
    Pastor agreed it was an issue that defense attorneys needed time to address. He ordered attorneys to give him an update at a hearing Tuesday afternoon.

    http://news.yahoo.com/michael-jackso…163335834.html

    Like

  17. nan permalink
    October 17, 2011 10:28 pm

    I always thought that the police had a preconceived notion regarding mj thanks to the tabloids and they just figured he finally overdosed..that and the fact that at the time murray made his statement, tv stations were showing secret rooms, him in his pajamas going to court, masked children and our friends dimond orth and others….

    This gave murray with his professional demeanor ample opportunity to impress the police and i would think his lawyer also , or why would he let him be interviewed…with just how messed up mj was.like it was inevitable…..seems everybody just bought into it…:((
    The thing I wonder about and i dont know if it has been mentioned here , we have Murray , throwing his patient under the bus with how he wouldnt let the guards use the bathroom/old pot/cigarettes and how much cologne he wore to possible cover up his misdeeds, just all of it……and yet…….
    sounding more concerned that they might break into his car , then when he says Paris says she is an orphan…….I didnt even hear him choking up over that…….hmmm
    .I swear I thought i was listening to an old Columbo episode where the killer just directs the supposedly bumbling cop ..although in this case it might have been true…

    If arnie klien had been doping mj up for all that time and murray is saying he heard it second hand from someone else……
    well wouldnt he have noticed mj was supposed to be impaired 3 times a week, , if he is giving him propaful every night?he would have been stacking drugs on top of drugs…
    he is so full of it…
    And i dont believe for a minute he was weaning mj off anything because he wouldnt have been set up with a bed pad , and catheter unless he planned on putting him out for a line time with his usual stuff….
    and he is supposed to be emptying jugs of urine and yet the urine is still in the room??
    I also found it interesting in his story that he found time to pat himself on the back by letting them know mj wanted to put him in charge of a hospital..same kind of thing he taped mj saying when he was in a vunerable state.
    Wants to make sure he has that tape as an insurance policy in case mj changes his mind imo…
    This is a guy that sounds like he is saddling up to mj for the long haul..
    He would have lost his job and in turn paycheck if he had done the right thing..

    Dr Steinberg was my hero..
    He was wonderful ..i have never seen a defense atty implode like flanagan did when questioning him…
    I dont know if anyone mentioned it but when flanagan came back from lunch break after getting nowhere with this guy and said ..no further questions
    the female prosecutor had to turn her head away from him because she started to laugh…

    Like

  18. October 17, 2011 10:03 pm

    Re oral Lorazepam for severe anxiety( Max time 3 months including time for withdrawal)It can cause coma but deaths are exeedingly rare.
    Dose is according to patient response and may be as high as 10 tabl/24 hrs.
    Flanagans irritating diversions in all directions is murray` s only hope I suspect.Polypharmacy is always risky and especially if unconsciuosness is a goal.
    Patients have to give informed consent for dangerous, experimental therapies.This type of therapy concerns patients with life endangering conditions and have to be carried out with many formalities to be fulfilled .
    And in this case leaving meds at Michaels bedside.Confusion and loss of recall is a wellknown side effect of benzodiazepines.

    Like

  19. October 17, 2011 9:59 pm

    I’m not sure why we even bother with such clowns (obvious trolls) like Plamen, but here are the FACTS from Michael’s autopsy:
    “Both testes are in the scrotum and are unremarkable and without trauma.” (bottom of page 17)
    “The right and left testes show active spermatogenesis with the usual number of Leydig cells. There is no signidicant fibrosis or inflammation. The epididymides are unremarkable.” (page 35)
    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

    Suzy, thanks a lot for reminding us of this foolproof argument. Trolls don’t understand one thing – whenever they bring up their lies it is a chance for us to tell the truth about Michael.
    This way those who were probably harboring the same crazy idea get a reply to a question which we would never have raised ourselves (because we simply don’t think about it).

    Like

  20. October 17, 2011 9:45 pm

    Michael was not castrated, that’s a ridiculous rumour. He never took any hormone tablets, his testicles and penis were examined in his autopsy and were found to be of those of an adult, he was even found to be actively producing sperm at the time of his death.

    MJ went through puberty, very publicly. He had an adam’s apple, he had facial hair, pubic hair, armpit hair, his voice changed, his voice was as soft as his brother’s and they all seemed to have gone through puberty and nobody questions them needing hormone tablets.

    It’s a bizarre rumour and pretty degrading to MJ once again, turning what in actual reality was normal into something freaky and bizarre just so that some media outsiders could try to “understand him.”

    Like

  21. October 17, 2011 9:42 pm

    “In cross-examination, an attorney for Murray asked Kamangar about his review of Dr. Arnold Klein, another physician who treated Jackson and regularly provided him with large amounts of a narcotic. Flanagan asked if the expert was aware that Klein had given Jackson 6,500 milligrams of the narcotic Demerol in the three months leading up to the singer’s death, suggesting Murray had no way of knowing another doctor was giving Jackson other drugs.

    Kamangar said he reviewed Klein’s records but could not determine from the documents whether Jackson had a “Demerol problem.” But the drug could have been a factor in Jackson’s insomnia, Kamangar said”

    http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?a=rp&m=b&postId=999617&curAbsIndex=3&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A7%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ%3DsectionId%253A6978%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

    Is 6500 milligrammes a lot?

    Like

  22. October 17, 2011 9:41 pm

    Oh, save us from stupid comments like the one from Plamen.Facts do not support this.Castration before puberty:”the normal interplay of hormones at that age will stop growth of long bones, and males may well be taller than avarage if this is interferred with”.I´ll not go further into endocrinology here. Also poor Michael suffered from bad acne,testoterone being the main culprit.We have seen him unshaven in interviews.
    So sad that Dr, Schafer´s father died. He would have been the 3rd starwitness for prosecution.
    I doubt that Murray will take the stand,His expression this far has been angry and hateful.He is too entangled in his lies to help himself,
    and looks like he is ready to kill again!

    Like

  23. Suzy permalink
    October 17, 2011 8:55 pm

    I’m not sure why we even bother with such clowns (obvious trolls) like Plamen, but here are the FACTS from Michael’s autopsy:

    “Both testes are in the scrotum and are unremarkable and without trauma.” (bottom of page 17)

    “The right and left testes show active spermatogenesis with the usual number of Leydig cells. There is no signidicant fibrosis or inflammation. The epididymides are unremarkable.” (page 35)

    http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf

    Like

  24. MOA permalink
    October 17, 2011 8:48 pm

    Due to the death of Dr. Shafer’s father, court has been postponed and will not be in session today.
    The attorneys have been ordered to court to discuss scheduling with Judge Pastor.

    One hour later:

    Trial will not be in session again tomorrow because of a new issue having to do with a new test done on Michael Jackson stomach content.
    Judge Michael Pastor has ordered jurors to call the court tomorrow afternoon at 3 to find out if the trial will resume on Wednesday or not.
    Attorneys are ordered 2 appear tomorrow at 1:30 pm to further discuss the new test prosecution ordered on #MichaelJackson’s stomach contents
    After Dan Anderson testified last week, prosecutor Walgren ordered new test to quantify how much Lorazepam was found in MJ’s stomach.

    Defense had ordered the test through a private lab and concluded there were the equivalent of 8 Lorazepam pills on MJ’s stomach.
    But prosecution reordered the test through Dan Anderson w/ results showing the amount of the drug and its metabolite.
    There’s discrepancy between the results 4 both sides. Besides that, defense claims Anderson testified he couldn’t test the drug’s metabolite .

    later:

    On the other issue, Prosecutor David Walgren said he spoke with Dr. Steven Shafer and he said he would be available to come back tomorrow.
    However, Judge Michael Pastor said he did not want to put extra pressure on Dr. Shafer and his family and make him feel anxious to come back
    With the new issue to be ironed out, the extra day off will probably work better for Dr. Shafer’s family issue.

    Defense attorneys spent most of the hearing this morning asking for more time to be able to address this new study with their experts.
    Prosecutor Walgren said he’s going to address the results of the new test during Dr. Shafer’s direct examination.

    Walgren says the result of his test is significantly different from the defense test. “An inflated number was presented to the jury”.
    Walgren said the real amount of the drug Lorazepam found in Michael Jackson’s stomach is “inconsistent with oral consumption”.

    http://www.positivelymichael.com/forums/showthread.php?27041-Murray-Trial-Hearing-Today-10-17-11&p=278740#post278740

    Like

  25. October 17, 2011 8:47 pm

    ‘If you listen to the interview with Tom Mesereau on the link David posted below, TM says exactly the same: Even when the prosecution’s experts take Murray’s statement at face value, they are still saying he’s guilty, they still can prove negligence. He said that Flanagan was desperate when he was talking about the conflicting type of approach’

    Susanne, I’ve finally managed to listen to Tom Mesereu – previously I was so busy that didn’t have a chance to.

    What a great interview !

    There is so much new information about the 2005 case and everything else. For example, Thomas Mesereau says that Tom Sneddon was capable of making another phony case against Michael and after the 2005 trial Tom Sneddon was planning to do it!

    Thomas Mesereau also says that it was crucial to acquit Michael because he knew what would happen to him in prison – he would not survive all the abuse he could have been subjected there. Only now I realize that it could have been not just an imprisonment, but something much more awful… And all these people wanted it. Sneddon, Dimond, Nancy Grace (Mesereau calls her Nancy Disgrace) and others. Mesereau says that God was on their side and this is indeed so.

    As regards Murray’s interview Thomas Mesereau says Murray’s lawyer made a mistake to allow him speak to the police (so he had the right to keep silence?). If Murray hadn’t made a statement the police wouldn’t have known about propofol and it was Murray who sent them on that track. Of course Murray did it not because of his “honesty” but because he thought the police had found the bags with empty and full vials of propofol anyway. Another instance of God’s hand in it.

    I wanted to transcribe Thomas Mesereau’s interview but it is long and probably someone has already done it? Does anyone have its transcript by any chance?
    The link to the interview is here: http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/audioPop.jsp?episodeId=547598&cmd=apop

    Like

  26. appleh permalink
    October 17, 2011 8:46 pm

    Please delete this inacceptable comment from Plamen, who is obviously a hater. We have enough to bear und should not waste our energy to this kind of people. Everybody who is familar with MJ and the facts knows, that Plamen just told lies from the tabloids !

    Like

  27. ares permalink
    October 17, 2011 7:35 pm

    -Joe Jackson has castrated his son Michael in puberty with synthetic estrogen injection. That’s why MJ was so depressed and suffer from insomnia. When Michael understand about his castration he hated his father forever. This fact is the reason of MJ problems. Joe Jackson has castrated MJ in order to save his voice high. Michael never forgive his father.-

    Now, i really don’t feel comfortable talking about this kind of things but didn’t the autopsy say that MJ could produce sperm? Secondly, that voice that we all heard on the audio was MJ’s. A very deep voice from what i can remember. Thirdly, there are many many rumors and lies out there about MJ. I think that we the fans shouldn’t add more. I think that the man that we all claim that we admire doesn’t deserve that.Respect the man and his memory and stop spreding fiction stories that so much hurted him while he was alive.

    Like

  28. October 17, 2011 4:19 pm

    “Joe Jackson has castrated MJ in order to save his voice high”.

    Plamen, I’ve also heard stories that Joe Jackson gave his son some drug which delayed his puberty, but it doesn’t mean that he was “castrated”. Even if rumors about that drug are true the effect of that substance was temporary and reversible.

    Otherwise Lisa Marie Presley wouldn’t have been following Michael for 4 years after their divorce and imploring him to “take her back” and promising him nine children if he did.

    P.S. Plamen, your comment which was spread over three posts, has been accumulated into one. The method you are using in spreading your ideas is unacceptable and if this goes on I have to warn you that you may be blocked.

    Like

  29. October 17, 2011 3:26 pm

    I suggest Conrad Murray defence should follow the line that Joe Jackson has castrated his son Michael before puberty by administrating esrogen ingection.

    1. If doctor Murray was not informed about this fact – he is innocent.
    Doctors should know all the details concerning his /her patient in order to perform efficient treatment.

    2. Michael Jackson was deeply depressed not having kids of his own. This lead to his special mental problems, including insomnia.

    3. If doctor Murray has signed some sort of contract not to reveal the fact of early castration of MJ, the defence could ask to testify some of MJ friends (Macaulay Culkin for example)

    Joe Jackson has castrated his son Michael in puberty with synthetic estrogen injection. That’s why MJ was so depressed and suffer from insomnia. When Michael understand about his castration he hated his father forever. This fact is the reason of MJ problems. Joe Jackson has castrated MJ in order to save his voice high. Michael never forgive his father.

    Like

  30. Susanne permalink*
    October 17, 2011 3:19 pm

    Correct, Helena. If you listen to the interview with Tom Mesereau on the link David posted below, TM says exactly the same: Even when the prosecution’s experts take Murray’s statement at face value, they are still saying he’s guilty, they still can prove negligence. He said that Flanagan was desperate when he was talking about the conflicting type of approach (it’s almost at the end).

    Like

  31. October 17, 2011 2:00 pm

    Testimony in the trial of Michael Jackson’s doctor has been put on hold beyond Monday, and possibly longer, because the father of the prosecution’s last witness died.”
    (Message on CNN)

    Susanne, thank you for the information – if there are no court proceedings today it will probably give us a chance to look into Murray’s interview. I will try to post it here in full if I have enough time for the job.

    With Murray’s profound lies and the defense constantly changing their tactic seeing the situation clearly requires a good deal of thinking. Frankly it is only today that I more or less understood what the defense was doing in order to neutralize Dr. Steinberg’s outstanding testimony. So what I posted yesterday was updated again. The gist of the changes is as follows:

    Dr. Steinberg based his review of Murray’s actions on Murray’s (false) account of the events. However since the defense’s primary goal was to neutralize Dr. Steinberg’s brilliant review at least in some way, they chose to show that it was inconsistent with the real timeline and was therefore not as perfect as it was.

    It does not matter that the real events and real timeline are ten times as bad as Murray’s own version – what did matter for the defense at the moment was to confuse Dr. Steinberg and the jury with strange questions and pretend that the truth was being told by the defense and not the prosecution witness.

    This is why during Dr. Steinberg’s testimony we had a unique roundabout situation when the defense was finally telling some truth about what happened that night (in their own interpretation of it of course), while Dr.l Steinberg had to defend his review which was based on Murray’s lies.

    But what is most important here is that Dr. Steinberg managed to show that even that false (and favourable to Murray) version proved that Murray was totally incompetent in his actions and criminal in his negligence.

    Like

  32. Susanne permalink*
    October 17, 2011 11:08 am

    In case someone is not informed:
    “Testimony in the trial of Michael Jackson’s doctor has been put on hold beyond Monday, and possibly longer, because the father of the prosecution’s last witness died.”
    (Message on CNN)

    Like

  33. October 17, 2011 3:14 am

    And here is an addition about Dr. Kamangar (UPDATED!):

    The same question was asked of Dr. Nader Kamangar, who is a critical care/sleep medicine physician and an advisor to the CA Medical board.

    The doctor answered that in the event the patient was still sleeping after the initial 25ml dose of propofol, it is his obligation to make sure that the sleep is not the effect of the drug. “You cannot make exceptions here”, he said.

    “So will you wake him up?” asked Flanagan. Dr. Kamangar said that it would be his obligation to do it as the well-being of the patient is a priority and if there is a potential danger the doctor is obliged to make sure that the patient isn’t having a significant problem. He said, “We have to prioritize”.

    Flanagan tortured Dr. Kamangar for some 3 hours or more with the same chewed up questions. The testimony started on Day 11 and continued in Day 12 when Flanagan asked the doctor what he would do first if he (Flanagan) fell on the floor in the court room – call 911 or render him help?

    Prosecutor David Walgren reacted to Flanagan’s question by asking Dr. Kamangar: “If Mr. Flanagan fell on the floor, would you wait 12 minutes and then call his legal secretary and ask her to call 911?” The question was sustained but produced the desired thunderous effect.

    Same as Dr. Steinberg Dr. Kamangar stressed that even in (the unlikely) case the patient self-medicated himself with an excessive amount of propofol Dr. Murray was still responsible for his death.

    I didn’t understand Dr. Kamangar very well and will rely mostly on the articles to tell his testimony:

    Doctor: Drug ‘cocktail’ killed Michael Jackson

    By LINDA DEUTSCH

    updated 10/13/2011 10:16:41 PM ET

    LOS ANGELES — Dr. Conrad Murray’s use of a cocktail of drugs on Michael Jackson as he struggled to fall asleep on the day he died was a “recipe for disaster” and ultimately caused his death, a UCLA sleep therapy expert testified Thursday.

    Dr. Nader Kamangar described Murray’s treatment as “unethical, disturbing and beyond comprehension.”

    “To summarize, Mr. Jackson was receiving very inappropriate therapy in a home setting, receiving very potent therapies without monitoring,” Kamangar said.

    He said diazepam (Valium), lorazepam (Ativan) and midazolam (Versed) were given to the sleepless star during a 10-hour period throughout the night and morning.

    “This cocktail was a recipe for disaster,” Kamangar said.

    Noting the addition of propofol (Dipravan), a powerful anesthetic used in surgeries, Flanagan asked: “Could this have caused death?’

    “Absolutely,” Kamangar said. “Absolutely.”

    The witness, one of the experts who evaluated Murray’s actions for the California Medical Board, expressed dismay about the drugs Murray gave the pop star, his failure to immediately call for help, and his lack of monitoring and record-keeping.

    Murray was unable to produce any written records on his treatment of Jackson, Kamangar noted.

    “It is an egregious violation of the standard of care when you are using sedatives like propofol and you are not writing it down,” Kamangar answered.

    Kamangar was the third prosecution expert to criticize the conduct ofMurray. He said his first mistake was using propofol to treat insomnia, calling it an unacceptable application of the drug.

    He said Jackson’s demand for the drug — the subject of previous testimony — was not a sufficient reason to give it. He also suggested Murray should have done a physical examination, taken a history from his patient about his insomnia, and called in other medical experts if necessary to evaluate the problem.

    “The most important thing he should have done is call for help,” Kamangar said.

    He said Murray’s interview with police made it clear that he waited too long to call for an ambulance when he found Jackson not breathing.

    On Wednesday,Murray’s defense team announced they were dropping a claim that was the centerpiece of their case — that Jacksons wallowed additional propofol when Murray was out of the room. Flanagan did not bring up self-dosing on Thursday. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44886109#.Tps7h5svDGY

    Sleep Expert — Dr. Nader Kamangar Testifies, Day 2
    Updated 10/13/11 at 8:45 AM

    Dr. Kamangar took the stand again today to continue his testimony, insisting he would never cave to a patient’s drug demands.
    * Kamangar also said Murray should have ruled out other possible problems that could have caused MJ’s insomnia before loading him up with a boatful of drugs.
    * He told the court, the first thing Murray should have done was to have MJ write a “sleep diary” to figure out what the underlying problem was.
    * Flanagan asked Kamangar about a study showing Propofol is safe to use for insomnia. Kamangar said the study was done in a monitored area after secondary problems have been ruled out … he insisted it’s incomprehensible to use Propofol at home.
    * Kamangar said using Lorazepam to treat insomnia is inappropriate.
    * Kamangar told Flanagan that — based on the transcripts from the police interview — he believed Murray gave MJ 25 mg of Propofol PLUS an additional unspecified amount through an IV drip on June 25.
    * Kamangar said Murray subjected MJ to an experiment by giving him Propofol to treat his insomnia.

    So Dr. Kamanger also thinks that Murray put Michael Jackson on a drip that night! And he also said that Lorazepam given by Murray was inappropriate for treating insomnia! The only way Lorazepam could be used was orally (and not as IV), for a short term and as an auxilliary to an anti-depressant to address Michael’s anxiety over the tour (and AEG’s nastiness in making ultimatums to him – you remember that they threatened to pull the plug if he missed a single rehearsal).

    A couple of other things stood out for me in Dr. Kamangar’s testimony:

    – Gross negligence still remains a gross negligence even if the patient survives it. It doesn’t matter that the result was positive – the standard of care was still not adhered to. (It was a life-threatening situation which didn’t bring about a tragedy simply by a miracle).
    – It is imperative for a physician to observe his patient the whole time while he is under propofol. In Murray’s case there was a period of time when the patient was left alone – which is another extreme deviation. Continuous observation is all the more important if there is no equipment to monitor the patient.
    – Propofol is a powerful drug with a fine line between mild sedation and moderate sedation and between moderate and deep sedation (when there is no breathing), so it is very easy to pass from one stage to another. At the time when there was no proper dosing equipment nurses used to count each drop of propofol in order to determine how many milliliters were given per minute (Needless it to say that Murray did not only count drops but probably let propofol stream down from a hole he made in the vial rubber).
    – Murray’s ability to remember facts does not compensate for his failure to keep records. Records are needed also for registering tendencies and charting various data. If the blood pressure changes from 180/100 to 100/60 within some 5 minutes it is a sign of a catastrophic scenario, so recording a tendency is a must. (Murray did not make any records and did not measure the blood pressure either – the device was not even opened)
    – When Murray said to the detectives that the level of oxygen in Michael’s blood was “in the high 90’s, 90 percent” it was an ignorant way of saying it as these are profoundly different figures and there is no way to know what level he is referring to.
    – Not giving oxygen and not calling help for the full 20 minutes does irreversible damage to the brain. The first 4-5 minutes are critical for restoring respiration, after that the brain cells start dying. (This means that Murray’s insistence on “saving Michael’s life” at the hospital some two hours after his clinical death was meant for show only – the most it could do was turning Michael into a vegetable.)
    – Unfortunately the Demerol under which Klein was making his cosmetic procedures on Michael’s face is capable of producing insomnia, as it activates the nerves and creates more stimulation. So it could be at least one and a secondary reason for Michael’s insomnia.
    – Murray should have made a diagnostic evaluation of Michael’s insomnia (before boldly handling the problem he had no idea of).

    Let me repeat here what I’ve earlier said in a comment. Murray never looked into the reasons for Michael’s insomnia. He simply jumped at the opportunity to make big money and never thought of rendering real help to Michael. He probably never knew how to handle this malady, but took it upon himself to treat it despite his total incompetence in this area. And this is his first major crime against his patient.

    We know that the first shipment of propofol was made as early as April 6. Considering that fulfilling the order required some time it means that the discussion took place sometime in the second half of March. At that time they still had 3 months at their disposal for proper treatment of Michael’s insomnia. Instead Murray immediately agreed and pumped Michael with so much of it by June that everyone started noticing that Michael’s health began quickly deteriorating.

    And we don’t even know how Murray was administering Propofol. Most probably it was the same substandard way he did it on June 25 – with no proper dosing device and not closely monitoring him – which is why Michael was probably experiencing temporary breathing problems every night.

    And if his breathing stopped every night and each time the heart was beating like mad asking for oxygen and each time the situation was alleviated by finally ventilating oxygen into Michael’s lungs, it means that Michael was dying every night for those 2 months.

    And all this because Murray simply did not know how to properly administer propofol – he is no anesthesiologist and doesn’t know that every additional drop there may be critical for the patient. And the fact that he agreed to administer propofol not knowing how to do it is his second major crime .

    And this in addition to all the craziness that took place on June 25 – neglecting his patient, not calling 911, doing improper CPR, etc., all of which is a separate crime requiring capital punishment.

    As he didn’t know what an extremely dangerous thing he was doing he simply made slits in the vials and propofol freely flowed down. And it was a miracle that Michael was able to wake up after gallons of propofol poured into him in such an uncontrolled way. It is one thing to wake up after you’ve received a minimal dose given by a proper anesthesiologist and it is another thing to wake up after Murray oversedated you with surplus propofol night after night.

    And again, if at the very start of it Murray had referred Michael to sleep specialists and if during those 3 months of preparations before the show the problem had not been resolved without administering propofol, it was for the council of physicians to decide what to do further.

    Let me also say what will surely go counter to the opinion of the medical community. It is easy for them to talk – they were not suffering like Michael was. He had to do the shows and they had to find a way to help him. And if it came to the worst I do not rule out that an unconventional method like propofol could have probably be used – of course in a hospital setting or at home, but with all the equipment present and a qualified team attending to the process.

    What I mean is that a doctor has two duties to his patient – he cannot do harm to him but he cannot abandon him in his problem either. And we know of cases when desperate patients agree to experimental ways of treating their health problems. In my opinion experimental treatment was possible – only it should have been done under full and even double medical control.

    And this is something which the incompetent, careless and insolent “doctor” Murray simply had no idea of.

    * * * * *

    A short note about the experimental studies of using propofol for treating insomnia. John M. Flanagan of the defense referred to a study made in 2010 which provided the first data that propofol was indeed successful in treating insomnia. In that experiment 64 patients were given theurapeutic doses which sent them into deep sedation for 2 hours for 5 days running. 6 months later doctors made additional tests and found that the condition of all patients improved.

    Dr. Steinberg and Dr. Kamangar said that those were experimental studies only which were made under full control of doctors. Its results were very limited and before (and if ever) propofol becomes recommended treatment it should first undergo extensive research the results of which should get the approval of the Medical Board.

    In any case – when Murray was giving propofol to Michael Jackson he could not know of those studies as it was published a year later. And the progress the medical science is making does not release Murray of his negligence which was so gross that it looked more like a murder than medical treatment provided by a doctor.

    Like

  34. October 17, 2011 3:09 am

    Guys, this is the second part about Dr. Alon Steinberg’s testimony (UPDATED!):

    The cross-examination by Flanagan was a rare circus which is difficult to explain.

    I’ll start with Murray’s interview of June 27 where he implied that Michael stopped breathing at 11 o’clock.

    The detectives were so much taken in by his story that neither of them asked a question why he found the patient not breathing at 11.00 but didn’t call for help until 12.20. Since they didn’t talk to Alvarez they assumed it was the doctor who called 911, but the huge gap of an hour and a half in Murray’s story did not raise a red flag for them. They simply did not notice it.

    However Murray later realized that he had pronounced a damning verdict on himself by revealing to the police how long he had not been calling 911. So he changed his story by shifting all the events by an hour forward – probably explaining it by his “poor estimation of time” at that moment.

    By shifting the events forward Murray turned his totally criminal negligence into something more plausible as now the time of his lingering over the patient was reduced from an hour and 20 min. to just 20 minutes.

    Dr. Steinberg based his review of Murray’s actions on the above Murray’s (false) account of the events. However since the defense’s primary goal was to neutralize Dr. Steinberg’s brilliant review at least in some way, they chose to show that it was inconsistent with the real timeline and was therefore not as perfect as it was.

    It does not matter that the real events and real timeline are ten times as bad as Murray’s own version – what does matter to the defense at the moment is to confuse Dr. Steinberg and the jury with strange questions and pretend that the truth is being told by the defense and not the prosecution witness.

    Dr. Steinberg firmly stuck to Murray’s own words and proved that even Murray’s favorable account of the events showed that his actions were totally incompetent and a delay in calling 911 was criminal. Even if the delay was no longer than 20 minutes it was still inexcusably long – Murray was to call 911 immediately.

    The paramedics arrived in 4 minutes and if the patient was in a state Murray described it to the police they were still able to save Michael Jackson. His heart was still beating and all they needed was to give him enough oxygen.

    Flanagan asked him how he knew the heart was beating. Steinberg said that according to Murray’s words he felt a pulse of 122 beats.

    Flanagan noted that the pulse was thready. Steinberg explained that it was because the blood pressure was low (but it was still there, so the heart was still pumping blood).

    Flanagan said it could be the state of “pulseless electrical activity”. Steinberg said that it couldn’t, because “pulseless electrical activity” is by definition NO pulse – while Murray said he could feel it. The heart was asking for oxygen and he should have used an ambu bag.

    Flanagan asked how he knew it was not used. Steinberg said that Murray did not mention it in his statement and he was basing his conclusions on Murray’s own words.

    Flanagan started playing with the idea that Dr. Steinberg was basing his report not only on Murray’s words, but on “other sources”. Steinberg said that he was aware of some other information but he didn’t use it in his review.

    Flanagan ventured to say that Murray was away from the patient’s bed for a period longer than 2 minutes. Steinberg agreed. His estimation was that it takes the heart to reach the condition described by Murray as “a thready pulse which is122 beats” longer than two minutes – it takes time for the oxygen to go down and the heart rate to go up, so Murray was probably away for several minutes longer than a mere two minutes.

    Flanagan suddenly asked a question which was least expected of him – and what if it wasn’t two minutes? what if the patient had not been breathing for 10 minutes? 15 minutes? 20 minutes? Steinberg said that from Murray’s own words Mr. Jackson still had a pulse and therefore he was still savable.

    Flanagan asked what Murray should have started first – dial 911 or do chest compressions? Steinberg replied that he shouldn’t have done chest compressions at all and should have dialed 911 immediately.

    Flanagan wondered “So shouldn’t have Murray tried to save his patient?” Steinberg replied that a health provider is allowed to do a short resuscitation effort for only two minutes before calling 911. Seeking professional help was the only logical thing to do – he had no life-saving equipment and no personnel, so needed someone who had all the necesary tools. But instead he called Williams.

    Flanagan said that Murray went downstairs to the chef to call for help, and Steinberg said he shouldn’t have – it was a severe deviation from standard of care. In such a situation every minute counts. And the time he was calling security and chef he should have spent on calling 911 instead.

    Flanagan asked if Murray called for help in 5 minutes, would it still be a deviation? Steinberg said “Yes”. “And if it was 3 minutes?” “Yes”. “So that one minute is a severe violation? “Yes, sir”, said Steinberg.

    Flanagan asked him if he knew that the landline telephone was not working. Steinberg said that Murray had a cell phone.

    Flanagan said that Murray could not waste time on explaining the situation to 911. Steinberg said that the only thing that was required of him was to say: “I am Dr. Murray. I am at Carolwood Drive, 100. Come now”.

    At here Flanagan began to do the impossible – I could harldly believe my ears when he suddenly started telling the truth: “But the paramedics said that he was cold to touch and dead for 20-30 minutes”. Steinberg agreed that when Murray came back from calling the chef he had lost the pulse, but even at that stage Michael was still savable. But altogether Murray wasted at least 26 minutes if the time was to be calculated from around noon time.

    At this point Flanagan disclosed the secret why he had been chewing up his impossible questions for so long. Now his theory is that Murray could not properly estimate time (so the death could have occurred earlier) and since Murray was mistaken it could affect the results of Dr. Steinberg’s report: “If he is mistaken in his assessment you would be mistaken too?”

    It is my personal opinion that the defense should not be allowed to so willfully misguide the jury and the public. What he is essentially saying is that it was a mistake to analyze Murray’s lies. Murray lied, Dr. Steinberg analyzed his lies and proved that his actions were criminal negligence even in the case of a favorable (and false) picture Murray had painted, and now the defense says the Murray made a “mistake”, so the report is no longer valid? But the truth is a hundred times worse than Murray’s fictional story!

    He first lied one thing – that he noticed Michael stop breathing at 11.00 and then wasted a full hour and a half doing God knows what. He then lied another thing – that he noticed the patient not breathing at around 12.00 and presumably immediately started working (wrong way) on his body. And the truth is a third thing – he was so busy with his phone calls that he simply did not notice that his patient had died! And he noticed it only at noontime when the situation was already beyond repair.

    If Dr. Steinberg found extreme deviations of care based on Murray’s favorable story – which said that he was away from Michael Jackson’s room for 2 minutes only and had 20 minutes for calling 911 – how much more damning his review would be if Murray had said to the police that he didn’t monitor Michael for an hour and a half?

    The questions Flanagan asked of Steinberg were so impossible and his whole line of defense for Murray so absurd that I decided to transcribe part of it:

    – Do you know what happened between 11 and 12?

    – No.

    – Do you know how long he continued to watch Mr. Jackson?

    – No.

    – When Mr. Jackson was found – your indication being around 12 o’clock – do you know what Dr. Murray did?

    – At unknown time he gave him propofol and since then, he says “I sat there and watched him long enough period that I felt comfortable”, so we don’t know how long he monitored him for afterwards. And then he needed to go to the bathroom.”

    – Do you know anything else he did between 11 and 12?

    – No.

    – Did he state the time he went to the bathroom? What time it was?

    – No, he didn’t.

    – When he came and found Mr. Jackson not breathing would you be of the opinion that based on your records it would round 12 o’clock?

    – If that was what was established, yes.

    – Do you have any idea about Mr. Jackson’s time of death?

    – He was pronounced a couple of hours later, but he was clinically dead when he arrived at the emergency room.

    – Did you read the paramedics’ report where they stated that at 12.26 he’d been dead for a period of time longer that 20 or 30 minutes?

    – I’ve read it but I didn’t incorporate it in this report. I just used Dr. Murray’s (testimony). His own words.

    – At 12 o’clock was Michael Jackson savable?

    – If you are asking me if Michael Jackson was savable when Dr. Murray found him, YES.

    – What were the chances of him being able to save him?

    – Walgren: Assuming that he was gone for only two minutes.

    – Based upon Dr. Murray finding him not breathing and his eyes open dilated at 12 o’clock?

    – He did not find him with dilated pupils. At 12 o’clock – Dr. Murray left him for two minutes – he was alive, supposedly at 11.58. So he left him for only two minutes and you what happens – he would have stopped breathing and there is still an oxygen level and it takes a few minutes for the oxygen to go down and for the heart rate to go up. So the fact that he left him for only two minutes he was savable.

    We do conscious sedation and sometimes it happens that patients stop breathing, so we use the bag mask, get them oxygen, trying to arouse them, trying to reverse whatever medications that we give. And he was definitely savable at that point. Also he had a delay in calling for help and if they had gotten there 6 minutes later Mr. Jackson would have been alive.

    – You use the term 2 minutes?

    – That’s what Dr. Murray said.

    – Do you think that he was gone from Michael Jackson’s side for only two minutes?

    – Estimating from this report he was gone [for two minutes]according to what I know what can happen in two minutes. Probably I would guess a few more minutes than two. But I am trusting Dr. Murray’s own words and his testimony.

    – And Dr. Murray said that he’d gone maybe at 11 o’clock.

    – It’d be nice to have medical records and documentation. It is standard of care to have the documentation to state what exactly happened. And there was none. So I had to use what Dr. Murray is telling me and he said two minutes.

    – But you don’t think it was two minutes, do you?

    – My report is based upon those two minutes. So I am assuming it is two minutes.

    – So if it is not two minutes you have a different answer?

    – Walgren: Objection.

    – Judge: There are a way too many variables. The objection is sustained.

    – Let’s assume that Dr. Murray was gone a longer time than two minutes.

    – All my testimony is based on what’s written – that he was on a drip and that he was gone for two minutes, you want me to pretend that he only gave him 25 ml and that he was gone for more than two minutes, is that right?

    – You know for a fact that Dr. Murray was gone for longer than two minutes.

    – No, I don’t.

    – Have you heard of the phone calls that he made?

    – I heard about the phone calls. And I don’t comment on the phone calls because I only took his words. If you telling me he was on the phone and are giving me this information, he shouldn’t have been on the phone and it just tells me that maybe he was on a propofol infusion because you can’t talk on the phone when someone got just 25 ml of propofol. Why would I talk on the phone and wake Mr. Jackson up? That just tells me that he was on a propofol infusion and again, you don’t ever leave anyone who got propofol, you don’t leave him unmonitored, and you shouldn’t have given him propofol in the first place for sleep.

    The above point about the propofol infusion is extremely important.

    Murray claims that he gave Michael only 25 ml of propofol, but Dr. Steinberg is sure that after giving the initial 25 ml Murray put Michael on a drip. When talking about it to the detectives Murray even corrected one of them who mentioned only a dose by saying: “Dose and drip”. No matter how Flanagan tried to shatter Dr. Steinberg’s position he was unmovable on that point – Michael Jackson was put on a drip that night too.

    He is most probably right. That empty 100ml vial (found in the IV bag) is still unaccounted for, same as a full hour which passed from 11.00 until noontime (which could be spent on dripping).

    And if it was a drip, we know that Murray didn’t use any dosing device – he simply made a slit in the vial stopper which let the propofol freely flow into the body. And while Michael was on this makeshift and uncontrollable drip Murray went about his business of telephoning and emailing, leaving Michael unattended for a full hour or more!

    Not only didn’t he do the proper dosing and was overfilling his patient with propofol, but he was also not monitoring the process either!

    And some say he is not guilty of murder? It is the same as non-stop filling your car with gas and not really looking for an hour and a half at what’s going on there and saying later you are not responsible for the explosion when the whole street was destroyed due to your negligence!

    Falaganan made his last attempt to save Murray by suggesting that when Michael didn’t wake up after the initial 25ml of propofol Murray thought he was sleeping in a natural way as “he was tired” and didn’t want to awaken him. Steinberg replied to it that propofol is not intended for sending the patient into sleep – it is used for anesthesia which should wear off at an estimated time and if this time comes and the patient is not waking up it is a sign for a grave alarm:

    – He has given it to him for sleep and after 4 to 7 minutes he continues to sleep and Dr. Murray continues to watch him. Is it you testimony that he should have tried to wake up?

    – Absolutely. When you give propofol you should always assess the sedation level and you do not leave the patient unmonitored until they are back to the pre-sedation level. You do not give propofol for sleep, and that’s an extreme deviation of standard of care.

    So if you tell me that there was no infusion and he gave him 25ml of propofol and the guy was still sleeping after 7 or 8 minutes I’d be concerned that something is going on and you absolutely stay there and monitor them until they wake. You don’t leave their side.

    If you give propofol and afterwards they are still sleeping, there is something wrong. You need to arouse the patient and you need to figure out the level of sedation, because something could be going wrong.

    – Dr. Murray spent 9 hours trying to get him to sleep and now you tell me he should have awakened him?

    – Absolutely.

    Like

  35. Deborah permalink
    October 17, 2011 1:58 am

    http://lawmedconsultant.com/2597/cardiologist-buries-conrad-murray-during-testimony

    Cardiologist Buries Conrad Murray During Testimony
    OCTOBER 12, 2011

    Cardiologist Dr. Alon Steinberg, a physician who conducted the California Medical Board review of Murray in the wake of Michael Jackson’s death, took the stand today and hammered what should be the final nail in the coffin that is a guilty verdict of Conrad Murray.

    His testimony is, in Law Med’s view THE only relevant testimony. His findings are irrefutable and prove the prosecution’s case beyond any reasonable doubt. There is NO defense to his testimony. His is the first voice of medical reason to be heard in this trial and his testimony was clear, concise and very powerful.

    He said he found six instances of gross negligence, each amounting to extreme deviations from the standard of care, in Murray’s treatment of Jackson. Here are the issues he testified to which prove Murray’s guilt. Period.

    Propofol is never used to treat insomnia.

    A physician administering it in someone’s home is “inconceivable”.

    Murray caused Jackson’s death by bringing propofol into Jackson’s home and treating him with it even if Jackson self administered the propofol that killed him.

    Every minute Murray didn’t call 911 was a massive deviation from the standard of care.

    “I don’t know a single cardiologist who uses propofol”.

    As we have said before, the fact that Jackson died from propofol intoxication, and the fact that the propofol was brought into his house by Conrad Murray for treatment of Jackson’s insomnia, is ALL of the information necessary to find Murray guilty. NO amount of additional testimony or facts can in any way change his guilt to innocence. No intervening acts or occurrences can change this simple truth.

    Here is what we [law med] said in August of 2010:

    http://lawmedconsultant.com/958/dr.-murrays-preliminary-hearing-delayed-res-ipsa-loquitur

    Dr. Murray’s Preliminary Hearing Delayed: Res Ipsa Loquitur
    AUGUST 25, 2010

    Judge Michael Pastor said he “wanted to expedite” the case, but has delayed the preliminary hearing for Dr. Conrad Murray, charged in Michael Jackson’s death, until early next year. The prosecution claims they need more time for investigation and that some of their witnesses are not available until then. While nothing is as ever as simple as it seems, the case here seems pretty simple.

    1. Use of propofol without proper monitoring in a medical facility for any FDA approved purpose, namely sedation and general anesthesia, is a deviation from the standard of care and constitutes negligence under civil law.

    2. Use of propofol in someone’s home to facilitate sleep is arguably negligence per se, regardless of the monitors being used, if we were talking about medical malpractice. It is not however, illegal when done by a physician……unless….

    3. The California penal code says you are guilty of involuntary manslaughter if someone is killed in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection. That certainly applies here.

    In medical negligence, which is civil law, there is a term which refers to negligence proven without the need for testimony from experts. “Res Ipsa Loquitur”, literally translated from the Latin as “The Thing Itself Speaks” (often altered to ‘the thing speaks for itself”) refers to a negligence case where the facts are such that there is no need to further discuss them, only to determine that the defendant was the cause of the harm claimed by the plaintiff. For example, if someone’s watch is left in the patient there is little else to be said, other than whose watch was it?

    Res ipsa loquitur has been around as a legal concept since 1863 and the English case of Byrne v. Boadle, where an individual was killed by a barrel of flour that fell out of a warehouse window. Said the court:

    The present case upon the evidence comes to this, a man is passing in front of the premises of a dealer in flour, and there falls down upon him a barrel of flour. I think it apparent that the barrel was in the custody of the defendant who occupied the premises, and who is responsible for the acts of his servants who had the control of it; and in my opinion the fact of its falling is prima facie evidence of negligence, and the plaintiff who was injured by it is not bound to show that it could not fall without negligence, but if there are any facts inconsistent with negligence it is for the defendant to prove them.

    Of course there is no res ipsa loquitur in criminal law, but if there were, the death of Michael Jackson would be a prime example.

    Murray is lucky he is not charged with second degree murder for acting with wanton disregard for a human life.

    California Penal Code Sec 187-199 Ch. 1 Homicide

    192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of three kinds: (a) Voluntary–upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion. (b) Involuntary–in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection.

    193. (a) Voluntary manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for 3, 6, or 11 years. (b) Involuntary manslaughter is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.

    Like

  36. lcpledwards permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:48 pm

    Here is a radio interview with Tom Mesereau conducted by Positively Michael! Charles Thomson and Debbie Kunesh, among others, were also guests on the show, and they each asked important questions about both the Conrad Murray and the 2005 trial. Pay attention to Charles Thomson’s question to Mesereau about his thoughts on Ron Zonen’s recent marriage to Louise Palanker, and the fact that the Arvizos were in attendance!

    http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/audioPop.jsp?episodeId=547598&cmd=apop

    Like

  37. lcpledwards permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:18 pm

    Hey guys,
    here’s a preview of a song by MJ’s nephew (and Jackie’s son) Siggy, who is an aspiring rapper. The song is appropriately called “Justice Will Be Served”, and it sounds like a winner!

    Like

  38. Susanne permalink*
    October 16, 2011 1:59 pm

    Thanks, friends, for putting all these lies together. I think there is a lot more to say about this man. I just hope that the jury will see all these lies and his character as well.

    Like

  39. October 16, 2011 2:06 am

    “Susanne I am so glad that someone else saw that interview for what it was.”

    Lynette, I also see the interview for what it is and also need to take it off my chest to be able to go on.

    In addition to what you and Susanne mentioned, look at this dialogue where Murray says he refused to sign the death certificate and wanted an autopsy – while emergency room Dr. Cooper said she never even asked him to, because she knew that at the hospital MJ was her patient and not his. And it was she who felt that it was a coroner’s case, not Murray. MURRAY: I SAID, “I WOULDN’T WANT TO SIGN THE DEATH CERTIFICATE ON MR. JACKSON WHEN I DON’T UNDERSTAND THE CAUSE OF HIS DEATH.” AND THEREFORE I RECOMMENDED THAT HE HAVE AN AUTOPSY. THAT’S WHERE THE RECOMMENDATION CAME FROM.

    Murray said that Michael slept until noon while the chef Kai Chase testified that at least twice or three times a week Michael came down to the kitchen to have breakfast with his children at about 8:30. MURRAY: EXCEPT FOR SOME INTERRUPTIONS IN SLEEP, I WAS ABLE TO GET HIM TO SLEEP FOR A REASONABLE TIME. BUT HE WANTED TO GO ALL THE WAY AGAIN TILL ABOUT NOON

    And Murray says he is taking so much care of the children! He says he asks for a psychologist or social workers and “is doing all that” – while providing a social worker in such cases is a standard protocol for the hospital. So whatever bad is done – it is Jackson, and whatever good is done it is always Murray! “AND THEN I ASKED FOR – I ASKED FOR THE SOCIAL WORKERS TO COME IN, OR PSYCHOLOGIST, WHICHEVER THE HOSPITAL HAD. HOW DO YOU LET THE CHILDREN SEE HIM? SO BEFORE I SAID “YES,” I PULLED A PSYCHOLOGY TEAM TOGETHER. I’M DOING ALL OF THIS”

    And look at this sickening scene painted in colors of self-glorification and cold-blooded lies. He says he will take care of Paris while he cannot take care of his numerous own children! And God save her from such care! Even here Murray didn’t miss the opportunity to show himself off as someone who “saved a lot of patients”. He “tried his best” for her father:
    AND I TOLD HER, YOU KNOW, WE WILL TAKE CARE OF HER. AND SHE ASKED ME, “DR. MURRAY, YOU SAID YOU SAVE A LOT OF PATIENTS. YOU KNOW, YOU SAVE PEOPLE WITH HEART ATTACKS, AND YOU COULDN’T SAVE MY DAD.” I SAID, “I TRIED MY BEST.”

    And this is how his request to take him back to the house (in order to pick up the bags with the incriminating evidence) looks in Murray’s interpretation:
    WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO TAKE THE CHILDREN HOME? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?”
    AND THEN THE SECURITY GUARD TOLD ME THAT “WELL, NOBODY CAN GO INTO THE HOME AT THIS TIME,” THAT THE HOUSE WAS BASICALLY ON LOCKDOWN.

    And here is another instance of his lie concerning” helping Mr.Jackson in the ambulance car”: I WAS IN THE TRUCK WITH MR. JACKSON, TRYING TO HELP HIM TO SURVIVE. I WAS DOING EVERYTHING I CAN. At that time he was talking on the phone with Nicole Alvarez: “It is about Michael Jackson. And it doesn’t look good”, which looks like a signal to destroy all propofol still stored in her house. So much for his “doing everything he could”.

    And the story about eye-medication (prescribed by Klein) is absolutely disgusting from the point of view of is sarcastic, too much confident and condescending intonation and the easy way the detectives allowed themselves to be led in the interview:
    DETECTIVE SMITH: ANY PROBLEMS WITH HIS EYES THAT YOU’RE AWARE OF?
    MR. CHERNOFF: IT’S XALATAN.
    DR. MURRAY: THAT’S — THAT’S INTERESTING, TOO, BECAUSE HE NEVER HAD SEEN AN OPHTHALMOLOGIST. I WAS TRYING TO TAKE –
    DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: IT CAME IN THREE VIALS.
    DR. MURRAY: REALLY?
    DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: YEAH, THREE GLASS VIALS FILLED WITH LIQUID THAT YOU COULD USE A DROPPER OR YOU COULD USE A SYRINGE. BUT IT IS A PRESCRIBABLE ONE, BUT THERE WASN’T THE NAME OF THE DOCTORS WHO PRESCRIBED IT.
    MURRAY: SURPRISE, SURPRISE.
    DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: OKAY. HOW ABOUT –
    DR. MURRAY: LET’S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE.
    DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: OKAY.
    DR. MURRAY: BECAUSE THAT’S AGAIN ANOTHER SURPRISE FOR ME. THAT’S WHY I DON’T KNOW EXACTLY ALL THAT HE HAS AVAILABLE TO HIM.

    And I am not even talking about all those lies Murray freely told about other doctors in Michael’s surrounding and how readily those detectives set off to investigate them while leaving Murray undisturbed for a whole month. Frankly, in this interview Murray sounds like the boss of the situation and the detectives reporting things to him.

    Like

  40. October 16, 2011 1:00 am

    “It’s especially clear to me now to which extent Murray let Michael down and even slammed him. Before the trial I was willing to give him the benefit of a doubt in terms of him being devastated himself over what happened and that he perhaps regrets it himself and just gave himself in the hands of his lawyers and they decided the strategy. But during the trial now his true character was revealed, that he is a selfish, greedy, narcissistic, perhaps even sociopathic person, who also has no respect for women, and who wasn’t interested in the well-being of his patient at all. The first thing he did was to cover his guilt and to blame his patient. In his police interview he even slammed Michael in an incredible way. He jumped on everything the detectives said to discredit Michael”

    Susanne, yes, the terrible impression of Murray is also dominating over everything else for me too. He turned out to be much more cold-blooded and unfeeling than I ever expected him. He was able to laugh and be sarcastic two days after the death of his patient and a ‘friend’! And he lies, lies and lies about Michael trying to roll him in the mud all over.

    How you like his lies about Michael having lots of IV sites and “sclerotic veins”? ” I’M FINDING THAT AS YOUNG AS YOU ARE, YOUR VEINS ARE ALL BEING SCLEROTIC.” HIS VEINS ARE BECOMING CLOTS, LIKE FILLED WITH CLOTS AND DRIED UP. AND YOU CANNOT BARELY FIND SITES FOR AN I.V. He claims that Michael was an addict! Well, firstly, Arnold Klein said that he inspected Michael’s body several months prior to Murray’s treatment and there were no needle marks whatsoever. And secondly, the Coroner said that Michael was much healthier than an average person of his age because he had not built-up fat and cholesterol in his blood vessels. None at all and this means that Michael’s veins were far from being sclerotic!

    And how do you like his story about Michael liking to push propofol? – “WHY DON’T YOU WANT ME TO PUSH IT? I LOVE TO PUSH IT.” This story is completely insane because from what we now hear about propofol a mild dose of it (which may probably be self-injected by some people) is meant for mild sedation only which does not produce sleep – while Michael needed it solely for sleep purposes which requires a slow infusion of at least 25 ml of it for a start. Assuming it takes 3-4 minutes to do it (as Murray claims he did) it will be physically impossible for a person to do it on himself as at some point his muscles will relax, he will fall asleep and will not be able to push anything at all.

    And what do you think about this dialogue?
    MR. CHERNOFF: BEFORE YOU WERE HIRED ON AS HIS DOCTOR, WERE YOU AWARE THAT MICHAEL JACKSON WAS TAKING THIS ON A DAILY BASIS?
    DR. MURRAY: I WAS NOT AWARE THAT MICHAEL JACKSON WAS TAKING THIS ON A DAILY BASIS.
    Michael was not taking it at all before starting with those rehearsals, let alone on a daily basis! And how would both of them suddenly become aware of it?

    And look how Murray is trying to discredit the paramedics too – they were ‘slow’ in his opinion (though they came 4 minutes after the call), while he ‘wasn’t slow’ when he was not calling 911 at least for 20 minutes if calculated from noontime: BUT I THOUGHT AS A DOCTOR, U.C.L.A. GIVING ORDERS, THEY WERE KIND OF SLOW. YOU KNOW, IT WAS SLOW STATUS.

    And you remember how he was praising himself for taking the patient to hospital? He says he didn’t want to give up (it was the paramedics who wanted to give up) – however if we look at the real picture the paramedics were still working on Michael while in the car while Murray was speaking on the phone with his girlfriend!
    MURRAY: I THEN ASKED U.C.L.A. TO TRANSFER THE CARE TO ME.
    DETECTIVE MARTINEZ: OKAY. AND THEY WANT TO GIVE UP, AND YOU DON’T WANT TO GIVE UP.
    MURRAY: I SAID NO. AND I TOLD THEM THAT I’M TRANSPORTING HIM TO THE U.C.L.A. I WAS IN THE AMBULANCE WITH MR. JACKSON. AND I THINK THEY MAY HAVE GIVEN UP EARLIER HADN’T I BEEN INSISTING AND GIVING HIM EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

    Murray’s lies are so sickening that they make me almost vomit. And I am even afraid to think what this cold-blooded reptile could do to Michael.

    Like

  41. Tatum permalink
    October 15, 2011 11:11 pm

    @susanne. I totally agree because I too felt sorry for Murray in the beginning. Who wants to be responsible for the death of Michael Jackson? I assumed Murray was remorseful but continuing to lie and blame the victim is not remorse nor friendship.

    Like

  42. October 15, 2011 9:58 pm

    Lynette, you have noted all the qualities and behaviours for a diagnosis of psychopathy.Very dangerous in a doctor.This alone is reason enough for murray to lose his medical licence for good.
    Just imagine, your patient, your only one, dies ,and he is laughing about it 2 days later!
    I was unable to get Thomas Mesereau´s scomments up on the screen,that has not happened before.I hope someone can write a summary or is it coming up on Youtube?

    Like

  43. Lynette permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:21 pm

    Susanne
    Exactly his entire mission in going to the police was to jump on the story before the coroner found the propofol. I think we should do a little psych 101 analysis of Murray.
    Here is a man, a Doctor who calls himself a cardiologist but does not have Board Certification. That is what the TV pundits called embellishing the story. When a statement about yourself is designed to make you appear more than you are it is a lie.
    Then let’s go to how kind, caring, thoughtful and generous Murray supposedly was to Michael’s children and Katherine at the hospital. Katherine through a family spokesperson has said that part just did not happen. And Doctor Cooper testified that she and her team of Social Workers were the ones that broke the news to Michael’s kids. Another exaggeration where he supposedly asked for “psychologists” to be brought in. And in the testimony of Dr. Cooper she says that it is policy and protocol to assemble a team of 14 people when a code come in including Social Workers to help with the family. More embellishment to make himself look better.
    Susanne I am so glad that someone else saw that interview for what it was. He went in there deliberately to take the heat off himself by pointing his spindly fingers at anyone else and especially Michael. And what really makes me burn is how his lawyers especially Flanagan want to point out to everyone that Kai Chase did not call 911. She did not call because there was a DOCTOR in the house he was the one that is supposed to call unless HE tells someone else to do it. He finally did 20 minutes into the code and NEVER called 911 himself.
    Dr. Alon Steinberg was asked by Flanagan if he would have asked Dr. Murray more questions than the detectives and his reply was yes. Flanagan let that one go when he saw the look on Dr. Steinberg’s face he did not want the jury to hear what questions that would be, the main one being “WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING”?
    We can also see like Chris pointed out that in the Medical world everyone stands down to the authority of the personal physician especially if he is at the scene. “Oh you have a Doctor there fine then good bye and we’ll be right there”. That is because they are the Chief Medical Officer at the scene of the arrest until he was brought to UCLA and the Code team took over.
    I would also like to get into Dr. Murray’s ladies: All about the same age, all in a certain profession all looked very similar with similar body build structure. That is a “type” and when Murray was on the phone to what 3 of 4 that morning we can safely assume that they take precedence over his work. We know that Murray doesn’t pay his child support and allowed a foreclosure on one of his houses because his ex wife lived there. You’re right were you say he has no respect for woman and it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that Murray is a sex addict and yes there is such a thing look it up.
    Then he points to Dr. Klein for having given Michael Demerol. 650 mg of Demerol over a 3 month period is 216.67 mg per month. The recommended dose of Demerol for procedural sedation is 100 mg IM and may be repeated every 1-3 hours depending on how long the procedure is. So the word Demerol and Michael Jackson was put together again and it was Murray who said he was probably in withdrawl. Not from those amounts he wasn’t. The thing with being a recovering addict of pain medication is that it takes more the next time someone like that has to have it.
    Then I have to ask anyone around Michael did he show the early, or late stages of opiate withdrawal at anytime? Here is a link for some information on opiate withdrawal, symptoms and treatment .
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000949.htm
    As you can see from the literature that some people don’t even know that they are in opiate withdrawal and once they go through withdrawal have no cravings because they did not know they even had that problem to begin with.
    In Michael’s case the letter that was found at Neverland in 2003 from Dr. Alex Farshchian indicated that Michael wanted to stop Demerol but was not able to get any other Doctor to prescribe him Methadone ( I would love to know who he asked that would not give it to him) and he was not successful with cold turkey ( does not make him “weak” it just means he could not do it and had tried). So Dr. Farshchian offered him Naltrexone for withdrawal symptom control until he was out of the symptoms. And if you read Michael’s own hand written note it indicates someone who does not want to use opiates not someone who was looking for them.
    http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael_jackson_drug_pictures_2#tab=most_recent&id=46727
    (Photos #3 and #13 of 40. Harvey Levin once tried to make people believe that these were found at 100 North Carolwood)
    Murray would have been better off saying that he was trying to do a rapid detox under sedation with the use of an opiate agonist than to point at Michael and say he was an addict and that is why I overdosed him on propofol. It is not the preferred sedation for opiate rapid detox but it would be acceptable UNDER THE PROPER CONDITIONS. He could have anesthetized Michael, given him Suptex and he would have been through any withdrawal and once again a recovered addict IF he was ever experiencing those symptoms. Why do I say IF he was having those symptoms, because you don’t just get one symptom, you get them ALL and so he would have been having to treat ALL of those symptoms not just insomnia.
    Blaming a lifelong chronic inability to sleep on opiate withdrawal in this case is just stupid. As you can see from the information in the link none of the symptoms of opiate withdrawal include slurred speech and sedation. Their bodies are in a hyper state not a sedate state with confusion and chills. The tremors do not mean that the person is cold as a matter of fact they will often have an elevated temp in the first few hours. If Michael had been in opiate withdrawal that night it would have saved his life not killed him because of the elevation of his vital signs including increased respiratory rate. If he had already gone through opiate withdrawal it is a moot point.
    People, especially those in the media really need to get up to speed on addiction terminology. I think Dr. Drew should do a whole show in the face of the opiate addict because it can be anyone from a new mommy after a C-section to Rush Limbaugh because those are the faces of opiate addiction. It starts with an accident or surgery and the next thing you know you’re an addict. So if Michael Jackson deserved to die or as some people say should be held responsible for being an addict then they better accept the same premise when they find out that their Grandma got “hooked” on opiates after her hip surgery and now Grandma wants more opiates.
    I will also reiterate what I said before. You cannot become “addicted” ( which is not possible) to propofol unless someone like a Doctor is helping you because they have to procure the propofol, access your vein, hook you up and push it in. That makes the Doctor the responsible party in that scenario. It does not matter how much you beg, how much you demand or how much money you offer that Doctor he has to say no to the Murray scenario.
    Once Murray asked for $5million and then accepted $150,000.00 a month everything that happened became his responsibility because he was the doctor. If we excuse Murray for what he did by accepting his lie that Michael begged and demanded the propofol so he gave it to him we have to ask what we have doctors for. If you believe Murray that this is what happened that means Michael was writing his own prescriptions and we should all be able to do the same thing.
    Then there is that ever so tricky problem of not finding any Demerol or it’s metaboliltes in Michael’s blood which is where is would have to be if he were using it again. Yes that is right. In the information that I linked above you can see that if opiate use is suspected a blood and or urine drug screen can quickly show if a person has either the Demerol or it’s metabolite Normeperidinein their blood or urine. So yes Murray went in to that interview with the intent to make himself look good and make Michael look bad. Now why would you do that if you had done nothing wrong. I believe they actually call this consciousness of guilt.

    Like

  44. Teva permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:47 pm

    @Susanne
    You are so right. Whenever the police tried to give Michael the benefit of the doubt Murray would turn it the other way, much like what D Dimond does. The whole interview was self-serving, self-righteous, and full of self-praise.

    Like

  45. MOA permalink
    October 15, 2011 3:01 pm

    Another link for Tom Mesereau today.

    Title: Michael Jackson Podcast – Tom Mesereau Live Show
    Time: 10/15/2011 11:40 AM EDT

    http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=71282&cmd=tc

    Like

  46. Susanne permalink*
    October 15, 2011 1:52 pm

    Guys, I have to get this off my chest. It drives me crazy that this doctor was another sleazy character who managed to get access to Michael (the last one).
    It’s especially clear to me now to which extent Murray let Michael down and even slammed him. Before the trial I was willing to give him the benefit of a doubt in terms of him being devastated himself over what happened and that he perhaps regrets it himself and just gave himself in the hands of his lawyers and they decided the strategy. But during the trial now his true character was revealed, that he is a selfish, greedy, narcissistic, perhaps even sociopathic person, who also has no respect for women, and who wasn’t interested in the well-being of his patient at all. The first thing he did was to cover his guilt and to blame his patient.
    In his police interview he even slammed Michael in an incredible way. He jumped on everything the detectives said to discredit Michael:
    – that he was not disclosing to him other doctors and medication
    – regarding the eye drops he said: “Surprise, surprise… let’s talk about that for a minute… he never told me he was seeing a doctor…”
    – that Michael never shared seeing Dr. Klein: “…if you want me to be your team and overlook things for you, why wouldn’t he have shared with me…”(I believe HE wanted to overlook everything himself to have the control)
    – regarding the rotted marijuana and the empty cigarette packages in an old raunchy suitcase (which I’m sure was not Michael’s): “…Now that I’m finding out all of these things…I gave Mr. Jackson love… I cared about him…I tried to help him… and now to know …”
    – when Det. Smith says, he doubts Michael would pack his own suitcase, he immediately answers: “No, he packed his suitcase… I know that for a fact… He would want to know that and keep that exclusively to himself.”
    – Regarding the question of smoking: “He wouldn’t let anyone in the room…He used excessive Cologne…it could have been to dismiss any odor.”
    etc. etc.
    It’s unbelievable how Murray took every chance in this police interview to discredit Michael. He not only killed him, he also slammed him afterwards.
    He surely didn’t expect this to be aired all over the world. But now he has to live with that, and it will stick with him till his end. He should be aware that Michael’s supporters will never forget this.

    Like

  47. Lynette permalink
    October 15, 2011 9:15 am

    I have a question for the defense team in this case. If you have one theory at one time and then switch it to a different theory at a different time what is that called by legal definition?Or better yet why would the person that did all this and was the only other one in the room have a theory at all? Wouldn’t he or shouldn’t he have KNOWN what happened?
    If Murray’s story was true wouldn’t ONE explaination work?
    I don’t know if the jury sees that but it seems to me that if it was true only one version would be true and the other not true i.e. a lie.
    Now they want to lie about their own story and change it so it does not look like Murray killed Michael. How does that work exactly? Maybe that is the question that I should enter for the podcast with Tom Mesereau tomorrow. What is the legal terminology for changing a story at least half a dozen times?

    Like

  48. Chris permalink
    October 15, 2011 8:45 am

    What every1 forgets is that Murray is more qualified than the person on the other end of the 911 call.
    As soon as security said we have a doctor here they ended the call.

    If Murray had done the call immediately it would have been 30 secs max on the phonenot 2 minutess +.

    Like

  49. Lynette permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:33 am

    Murray’s team this week said it was abandoning a theory that Jackson swallowed the fatal dose of propofol. Attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the judge on Friday, outside the jury’s presence, that the defense had determined in May that it was not a feasible scenario

    .

    So if they knew in May that is wasn’t a feasible theory why did we have to listen to them ask Dan Andersen what the propofol in the stomach meant.Who told them in May that it wasn’t a feasible scenario? The expert that they did have and now had to replace with someone ( Dr. Paul White) that is going to get his proverbial butt kicked on Monday by the guy that did his math for him in his studies ( Dr.Shafer).

    Like

  50. Lynette permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:23 am

    I just finished watching and am so glad to see the testimony of Dr. Steinberg and Dr. Kamangar. It says it all and it says what I have been saying all along. If Murray had called 911 and both Dr. Steinberg and Dr. Kamangar said he could have used speaker phone and continued doing what he should be doing but wasn’t doing correctly. He could easily have put his phone on the bed. He never had to leave the room he could have just yelled “HELP” as loud as he could and he could have kept doing it until someone came up the stairs to find out what was wrong.
    FIrst Dr. Steinberg sees what I saw. Murray started doing compressions when they weren’t needed. If Michael had a weak and thready fast heart rate like he said in his interview with the police it is the breaths that are the most important. You should not do compressions with a pulse because if you do and it is not in complete sync with the hearts actual rhythm you can actually cause the heart to stop. Murray should have known that considering that he was a doctor let alone a self proclaimed cardiologist. Dr. Steinberg was great and I like how many times he repeated that he used Murray’s own words.What is the defense going to do now stand up and say “he might have embellished the story”.My favorite part of Dr. Steinberg’s testimony was when he kept telling Flangan that Murrau said he hung a drip. His own words.I think that is when you could barely overhear Flangan say “this is insane at this point”. I beg to differ Mr. Flanagan, your clients defense and their neverending always changing defense theory that Murray did not kill Michael is what is insane.
    My favorite part was when Dave Walgren asked Dr. Kamangar about the hypotheticals that he is always using when he was asking the witnesses. Mr. Flanagan had asked Dr. Kamangar about his statement that not calling 911 was egregious giving him the hypothetical that “If I fall down right here and I’m not breathing you’re going to call 911”.Then Dave Walgren got up and said “let’s use Mr. Flanagans hypothetical that he falls down right here and is not breathing”. If only… Mr Flanagan can ask the same question way too many times and gets away with it and I think the Prosecution is tired of it.
    Now we hear that the defense has abandoned the theory that Michael drank the propofol.Now he injected it. I think they should quit while quitting is good. Hearing what a wonderful caring man he is from his patients at a non profit clinic doesn’t do much for me because the lone patient he was responsible for to the tune of $150,000.00 a month ( original demand was $5 million) is dead.

    Like

  51. Deborah permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:04 am

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/14/us-michaeljackson-defense-idUSTRE79D59I20111014

    Doctor’s defense faces tough task in Jackson trial

    By Jill Serjeant
    LOS ANGELES | Fri Oct 14, 2011

    The defense in the trial of Michael Jackson’s doctor takes center stage next week with a major question still to be answered: will Dr. Conrad Murray take the witness stand?

    After three weeks of often damaging evidence against the doctor accused of involuntary manslaughter in the singer’s death, legal experts say Murray’s version of events is riddled with inconsistencies.

    And lead prosecutor David Walgren on Friday complained to the trial judge that his team was “dealing with an ever-changing defense.”

    Testifying comes with risks if Murray is unclear in telling jurors why he failed to have proper equipment on hand when Jackson died, and why he failed to disclose his use of the drug that ultimately caused Jackson’s death.

    “If I was defending, I would not put Murray on the witness stand. I think he would just get hammered,” Beverly Hills defense attorney Mark McBride told Reuters.

    Jackson died at age 50 of an overdose of the powerful anesthetic propofol and a cocktail of sedatives on June 25, 2009.

    Prosecutors must convince the jury that Murray was so negligent in his care of the “Thriller” singer that it led to his death, just as he prepared for a series of London concerts. The doctor faces up to four years in prison if convicted.

    Murray has admitted giving Jackson a small dose of propofol after the singer begged him for the anesthetic during a long, sleepless night. His defense says Jackson subsequently injected himself with an extra, fatal dose without Murray’s knowledge.

    “The trouble is there is no evidence whatsoever that Michael Jackson did that. There are no fingerprints. Unless they have something I am unaware of, it is just a theory,” said Los Angeles criminal defense attorney Steve Kron.

    Murray’s team this week said it was abandoning a theory that Jackson swallowed the fatal dose of propofol. Attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the judge on Friday, outside the jury’s presence, that the defense had determined in May that it was not a feasible scenario.

    MANY HARD QUESTIONS

    Murray’s attorneys are expected to call about 22 witnesses starting next week after the prosecution rests its case, which could come as soon as Monday.

    Defense witnesses are expected to include former patients of the cardiologist, medical experts and possibly Jackson’s former hairdresser. They are likely to portray Murray as a kind and conscientious doctor and push claims Jackson was addicted to propofol and other drugs, making him a difficult patient.

    But legal experts say the defense also must clarify why Murray apparently failed to tell ambulance or hospital staff he had given the singer propofol; why, as alleged, he tried to hide vials of the anesthetic when paramedics arrived to help Jackson; how long Murray was out of Jackson’s bedroom that morning; and why he was using propofol — normally used for patients undergoing surgery — at all.

    “We have yet to hear why Dr. Murray wasn’t more careful,” said Laurie Levenson, a former federal prosecutor.

    Murray’s two-hour interview with police, played for jurors in court last week, raised as many questions as answers. Indeed, Levenson said, it offered a “road map on how to try to impeach him” if prosecutors can cross-examine Murray.

    “The only reason to put Dr. Murray on the stand is if his attorneys believe he will come off as very sympathetic. Traditionally, people like doctors and are reluctant to convict them,” she said.

    The police interview wasn’t all bad news for the defense, Kron said. “The jury was able to hear Dr. Murray (talk) about how much he loved Michael Jackson … and how he was doing all he could to wean him off (propofol). He sounded like a person with some compassion,” Kron said.

    Still, prosecution testimony, especially from two medical experts who slammed Murray’s standards of care on six points, was “very, very damaging,” McBride said.

    “As much of a hard-nosed defense lawyer as I am, I am not optimistic about the intrepid doctor’s chances,” he said.

    (Additional reporting by Alex Dobuzinskis; Editing by Bob Tourtellotte and Paul Simao)

    Like

  52. October 15, 2011 3:39 am

    14th october hearing

    LOS ANGELES – Testimony in the manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson’s personal doctor could wrap up by Oct. 21, attorneys told the judge Friday.

    During a 35-minute hearing before Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor, lawyers for the prosecution and defense said they expected the last witness for either side to finish by the end of next week or no later than Oct. 24. Defendant Conrad Murray and the jury were not in court for the session.

    So far with 12 days at trial, 33 witnesses have testified for the prosecution in support of charges that Murray negligently gave Jackson a fatal overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol as a sleep aid in June 2009. Murray, 58, a cardiologist, has pleaded not guilty.

    Steven Shafer, an anesthesiologist and an expert on propofol, was on the witness stand when court adjourned Thursday. Shafer will be the last state witness, prosecutor David Walgren told Pastor.

    The defense will call about 15 witnesses, including “police officers, experts and some character witnesses,” but could add more, defense lawyers said. There will be at least two defense experts and as many as four, depending on what Shafer says in his remaining testimony, defense lawyer Nareg Gourjian said.

    Read the rest at: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/119570-14th-october-hearing?p=3511563#post3511563

    Like

  53. October 15, 2011 1:14 am

    Guys, I’ve added part of Dr. Steinberg’s testimony. It is quite big and very important, that is why I am recording it in much detail. There is still a lot to say about it. Here is its first part:

    Cardiologist Dr. Alon Steinberg is a doctor every patient is dreaming of. If someone like him had been by Michael’s side there is no doubt that he would be alive now.

    Dt. Steinberg spoke in a clear and understandable way and used his testimony not only for assessing Murray’s standard of care but for educating people on various medical issues, including the correct way to perform the CPR in case you see someone down.

    In short he is a real doctor, and a doctor is always a doctor – even if he is in the witness stand at a trial.

    Dr. Steinberg is one the leading cardiologists of the Californian medical board which is a government agency licencing, regulating and disciplining physicians. He himself is board certified in two areas of cardiology.

    To be board certified means completing a cardiology fellowship and passing an extensive two day exam that goes over the basic knowledge and skills in cardiology.

    As of 2009 Dr. Murray was not board certified despite the fact that 90% of the cardiologists who take the exam pass it – not because it is easy (it is not), but due to their good training.

    At the request of the Californian medical board Dr. Steinberg reviewed Murray’s case to check whether the doctor’s actions were within the “standard of care”, which he described in a simple way – it is “what all ordinary doctors should do in the same situation”.

    There are three possible resolutions to be passed on the standard of care by a doctor:

    No deviation
    A minor or simple deviation
    A severe or extreme deviation.

    Dr. Steinberg said that it was the first time he encountered a case of an extreme deviation (as far as I know after his review Murray’s licence was suspended).

    To make his judgment in the case Dr. Steinberg had several reports available to him but chose to use Murray’s own interview with the detectives. He said he wanted to judge him on his own words.
    This was an absolutely brilliant decision as Murray’s story presented two days after June 25th was his highly polished version of the events. In short it was the best story Murray could come up with and Dr. Steinberg decided to judge Murray on what he considered his best.

    Following Murray’s own account of the events Dr. Steinberg found 6 extreme deviations each of which amounted to gross negligence:

    1) The propofol was not medically indicated. It means that doctors don’t use it for rest, sleep or psychological problems

    2) It is gross negligence to get a patient under propofol without proper monitoring him, without proper equipment and personnel,and without proper physical observation of the patient

    Dr. Steinberg gave a list of the equipment which was required for giving propofol:

    — a proper pulse oxymeter with an alarm. This device measures oxygen in the heart and rings an alarm if the oxygen gets low. Murray’s oxymeter did not have an alarm and this means that he was supposed “to sit and stare at the device every second while his patient was under propofol”, as Dr. Steinberg put it. ( Did you also recall at this point that Murray did not only fail to stare at the device and monitor Michael but was talking on the phone for hours on end?)

    —an automated blood pressure cuff was to check the patient under propofol at least every 5 minutes and this was not done either. Murray had a manual cuff but it was not in use (remember the picture of it being packed in several bags and a box?)

    — there was no EKG machine to monitor the heart rhythm to avoid arrhythmia (any rhythm different from normal is arrhythmia)
    another requirement was a mask with an ambu bag for pushing oxygen into lungs in case the patient stops breathing. It is interesting that Murray had this device but he didn’t use it – it was lying on the floor. When Walgren asked him how he knew it wasn’t in use Dr. Steinberg explained that he took it from Murray’s own statement to the police where he said he did mouth to mouth but didn’t use the ambu bag.

    — A hard board was to be placed under the patient in case CPR was needed. If CPR is done on a soft bed and the patient’s heart is pushed down by the required 2 inches, it is useless as the body is just being displaced down – so a hard surface is a must

    Many other things are required like a back-up battery in case lights go out, a tube for intubating a patient directly into lungs if the mask is no help and some small device which keeps the tongue from obstructing the airway during sedation – in short at least a dozen important things are needed for proper monitoring a patient under propofol.

    3) Another extreme deviation was inadequate preparation for the emergency situation.

    When you do propofol you need to be prepared for any foreseeable consequence and Murray was not. Propofol can very easily pass from mild sedation to moderate, and from moderate to deep sedation (a stage when there is no breathing). It has a “narrow threshold” as Dr.Steinberg described it so a patient can pass from one edge to another in no time and get over-sedated.

    Let me make a comment here. Now we know that instead of using a proper dosing device to measure every tiny drop of propofol Murray used vials with slits in them so that propofol dripped down freely. With so much excessive propofol poured into his system nightly case Michael could possibly experience breathing stops very often – probably even every night. This could be the reason why his health was deteriorating very quickly under Murray’s “care”.

    And what happens when breathing stops Dr. Steinberg explained in the next point of extreme deviation from standard care.

    4) The fourth extreme deviation was Murray’s improper care during the respiratory arrest or stop of breathing.

    Since this is one of the crucial points in the testimony I’ll follow Dr. Steinberg’s words in even more detail. It made me realize that Michael was dying slowly which is a terrible thing to imagine, but on the other hand it means that if Murray had called for help at once Michael could have been saved.

    —- Michael’s case was not a cardiac arrest –which is when the heart stops beating and contracting. In cases of a cardiac arrest doctors do chest compressions (CPR) to make the blood flow through the body while they wait for a defibrillator to arrive. Defibrillator is used for making an electric shock and restarting the heart.

    —- Michael’s case was a respiratory arrest. It means that he stopped breathing – but since there was still some oxygen in the lungs, his heart went on beating. However when the oxygen slows down, the heart starts to get excited and the heart rhythm goes higher. Eventually, due to the absence of oxygen the heart slowly weakens and finally stops. The electricity is still in the heart and can be registered (it is called pulseless electrical activity), but there is no heartbeat and no pulse. At the final stage electricity also dies and you see a flat line on the monitor.

    What is important is that at the moment of respiratory depression, when the heart is beating like mad, CPR is not done at all – it is oxygen which the heart needs, not CPR!

    And here Dr. Steinberg referred to Murray’s own words in that interview.

    Murray said he left Michael’s side when the oxygen was “in the 90s” which is normal. He said he was away for two minutes.

    When he came back his patient was not breathing and his heart rate was a hundred and twenty two (122) which is a lot. Murray says he checked the pulse using a pulse oxymeter – and this device won’t detect a pulse unless there is a blood pressure, so according to Murray’s own words when he returned from the bathroom Michael’s heart was still beating.

    Dr. Steinberg says that at this moment Murray should have called 911. After calling for help he should have tried to arouse Michael, put an oxygen mask on his face and start pushing oxygen into the lungs via an ambu bag. Simultaneously he was to inject Flumazenal as soon as possible in order to reverse the effect of the benzodiazepines given earlier.

    And what did he do? Instead of those three steps – dialling 911, oxygen and Flumazenal – Murray, according to his own words, started doing chest compressions which was inexcusable as Dr. Steinberg put it.

    The other factor was that his CPR was of poor quality. He shouldn’t have done it on the soft surface and with one hand too. He should have slipped Michael to the floor and with his size Murray it was no problem to slide down a man who weighed 136lbs.

    In fact each of those actions was an extreme deviation for standard of care but Dr. Steinberg regarded it just as one point.

    5) The fifth extreme deviation was Murray’s failure to summon immediate help.

    Dr. Steinberg said, “It’s basic knowledge, you don’t have to be a health-care professional — when you see someone down, you have to call 911.”

    When Murray saw Michael not breathing he knew that he had no equipment, no personnel and no necessary medications – so he needed help quick and should have called 911.

    And the delay in calling 911 was significant. According to Murray’s own words first he did CPR and mouth-to-mouth, then he called Mr. Amir Williams and even then he didn’t ask even Williams to call 911.

    The paramedics were only four minutes away, so instead of that huge 20 minute delay he could have got help within 4 minutes only.

    Dr. Steinberg says there is statistics that for every minute of a delay there is a much less chance that the patient will survive. In such situations every minute counts as even if the heart survives a long delay may result in a permanent damage to the brain (if it stays too long without oxygen).

    Dr. Steinberg described Murray’s behaviour as bizarre – he had a chance to call 911 but called Michael’s assistant instead?

    6) The sixth extreme deviation was Murray’s failure to maintain proper medical records.

    The records are kept not only for insurance or possible litigation but for providing better care of the patient, registering the history of each procedure, reaction to medications, lab results, etc. However Murray did not document a single thing.

    If he had kept them those records could have been handled to the emergency room doctors when they arrived at the UCLA hospital and could have told them what he was unable to say when he was asked to.

    In conclusion Dr. Steinberg said that all those breaches directly contributed to Michael Jackson’s untimely death. If it had not been for them he would be alive now.

    Same as with Dr. Rogers, Walgren asked Dr. Steinberg a question whether it would matter IF THE PATIENT SELF-ADMINISTERED some medication. Dr. Steiberg confirmed that all those extreme deviations WOULD STILL APPLY.

    “When you monitor a patient, you never leave his side, especially after giving propofol,” Steinberg said. “It’s like leaving a baby sleeping on your kitchen countertop. You would never do it because there’s a small — a very, very small — chance that the baby could fall or grab a knife or something.”

    You’ll find the above Dr. Steinberg’s testimony in this video:

    Like

  54. monica permalink
    October 14, 2011 10:02 pm

    I am preparing a letter to cnn and I wanted to know if any of you know how long the autopsy image was shown in court via the live feed (as in how many seconds).I missed that day’s session and I could look it up on JustMeSTKK’s channel myself, but I can’t bring myself to do that. I don’t want to see the image.
    Thank you to anyone who can help:)

    Like

  55. MOA permalink
    October 14, 2011 9:53 pm

    On Saturday, October 15th at 9am Pacific Time, Tom Mesereau will answer questions about Murray’s trial on positivelymichael.com

    Link to our Michael Jackson Podcast subforum: http://www.positivelymichael.com/for…hp?59-Podcasts

    Link to our original interview with Thomas Mesereau: http://www.positivelymichael.com/for…homas-Mesereau

    Like

  56. shelly permalink
    October 14, 2011 7:46 pm

    They said the defense case will last only one week.

    Like

  57. October 14, 2011 6:28 pm

    “my lack of understanding has to why this trial was not stopped 2 days ago when the judge heard the words ‘Conrad murray did not provide a high standard of care for Michael’”

    Mandie, Murray’s guilt is obvious that one does indeed feel strange that we still have to listen to all the defense’s nonsense for 3 weeks or more. I really don’t know what should happen for the case to turn into an “accident”.
    But there is no cloud without a silver lining – a long trial may become a sort of an educational and eye-opening process which will draw all normal people to Michael. By normal I mean all those who retained the ability to think and still have some conscience left in their souls.
    It may also teach people to look at Michael not as a caricature but as a human being. Even the way they talk about him at the trial – as Mr. Jackson – is something we have not heard before. It it weren’t for the circumstances it would be a treat to hear him called like that again and again.

    “Is conrad murrays lawyer trying to say that this was ‘accidental?’ Are they trying to pass the blame onto the security who conrad murray apparently asked to ‘call an abulance’?”

    I think they are taking every opportunity to discredit the prosecution witnesses and plant doubt in the jury’s minds by whatever argument that comes their way. They are working in several directions hoping that at least something will work.

    Thank you again for the time and effort
    I am trying to do my best because I feel like I owe it to Michael. Why I feel that way I don’t know and it somewhat surprises me that I got this far, but I am trying not to ask questions and do what I feel right at the moment. Sorry for some delays – I also have to work, so spare time is a huge problem with me. But I will try to update this post at the first opportunity.

    And sorry to all those whose emails I am not answering at the moment. This is a way to save time and energy for me.

    Like

  58. mandie permalink
    October 14, 2011 3:52 pm

    Am so glad there are bloggers like yourself who take the time and effort to bring a blog that explains and goes through each statement with a tooth comb, Thank you so much for your time and effort to do this for us, fans of michael’s like myself who tbh am lost with this trial, maybe it is my lack of understanding in a medical sense or perhaps my lack of understanding has to why this trial was not stopped 2 days ago when the judge heard the words ‘Conrad murray did not provide a high standard of care for Michael’..I want to take my anger out on so many people but i would be wrong to do that. I guess that the trial has to be played out and all witness heard for the obvious to be said by the jury. ‘Guilty’! Although i feel wrong somehow to type those words, i feel like i am in the wrong to even think that way. Why? Remember michael’s words in 2005? …’Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court’!…Is michael’s words put in today’s context relevent or should i not think that way? I feel like to shout ‘He’s Guilty’ puts me in the same box has those that judged michael and said he was guilty back in 1993/2005.

    The only difference here today with conrad murray trial is the evidence says ‘He’s guilty’ he killed michael (unless somewhere there is a miracle twist in the evidence to save his guilty ass and it becomes an accident) Can that actually happen?! …

    What peeves me off is the 4 year charge how can there be only 4 years given to someone who kills someone else,?
    Is conrad murrays lawyer trying to say that this was ‘accidental?’
    Are they trying to pass the blame onto the security who conrad murray apparently asked to ‘call an abulance’?
    Are they saying that michael may not of told conrad murray what other pills he may of been taking (on that day or 12hrs/24hrs before) and so conrad murray will not of known that to give propofol ontop would kill michael?

    Why do i feel that i am judging a person before he has been convicted, like i am wrong to judge and pass an opinion on something that is down to evidence and a jury to decide? michael said it is wrong to judge that’s why i feel the way i do!!!

    “’Lies run sprints, but the truth runs marathons. The truth will win this marathon in court.’” Quote of michael’s seems so wrong right now. The truth is in the witness evidence, the truth has been there before this trial hit the courtroom, The truth says ‘Murder’ and so the only thing left is,
    Justice for michael.

    OMG! Did i really read above that someone sent photos to prince and paris.? Who the hell would do something so sick and unjustified. Can the person not be reported to their service provider and banned or fined? Cannot believe that people are being paid to do sick things like that! why? i don’t understand people’s actions, have they no respect! TMZ should be ashamed of themselves also, i don’t click anything to do with them but from what read above they to need to take a look at their actions!

    Thank you again for the time and effort put into all your blogs you are appreciated.

    Like

  59. October 14, 2011 1:25 pm

    Like

  60. October 14, 2011 1:24 pm

    Like

  61. October 14, 2011 12:29 pm

    It is all coming together.It is interesting to watch murrays facial
    expression,he has started to understand the serious nature of all.
    And why believe Murrays denials, he is a known liar and comparing what he did to what prosecution medical witnesses have stated it is really surprising that he took on the task at all.At some point I think he might have passed the cardiology exam, though this is not necessary if he has done the nececessary training. From his actions one would think he has hardly practiced medicine at all.-Someone is paying him,we all have our suspicions.He can still hope for a light sentence and continued payments from somewhere.

    Like

  62. October 14, 2011 10:54 am

    “No matter how it happened, he was killed and that is murder, whether intentional or not, he was still murdered, and I just can’t see Murray getting out of this. I also still believe AEG had a hand in it as a driving force. Again intentional or not, it was still murder, and you might as well throw in the media.”

    I fully agree. All of them had their role to play in it though Murray was the one who actually did it. I am still wondering who may be paying Murray for all these lawyers and for so long too. Murray cannot afford it himself. Either Murray received a huge sum of money before Michael’s death and is now using it on his legal and publicity team or someone is paying for it now. I wish we knew who.

    Like

  63. October 14, 2011 10:31 am

    “No matter how much the patient may complain, no matter how much the patient may beg, you as the doctor should say no?” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked. “That’s correct,” Kamangar replied.”

    This point is absolutely correct but I would like to focus everyone’s attention on one thing. I think that Dr. Kamangar probably talked about it though I didn’t hear this part because my video was malfunctioning at that moment.

    The doctor’s decision not to agree to Propofol was to have been taken at the very start of the process – sometime in March-April when it was first mentioned by Michael or whoever. It doesn’t mean that Murray should have rejected Michael help – no, he should have analyzed his insomnia and if he could not do it himself, he should have referred him to sleep specialists. Ideally Michael should have been placed in a sleep clinic – to Dr. Kamangar for example.

    So Murray’s first major crime is that he agreed to do it without first assessing the situation. He simply jumped at the opportunity to make big money and never thought of rendering real help to his patient.

    We know that the first shipment of propofol was made as early as April 6. Considering that fulfilling the order required some time it means that the discussion took place sometime in the second half of March. At that time they still had 3 months at their disposal for proper treatment of Michael’s problem. Instead Murray immediately agreed and pumped Michael with so much of it by June that everyone started noticing that Michael’s health began quickly deteriorating.

    And we don’t even know how Murray was doing it. Most probably it was the same substandard way he did it on June 25 – with no proper dosing device which is why Michael was probably experiencing temporary breathing problems every night.

    And if his breathing stopped every night and each time the heart was beating like mad asking for oxygen and each time the situation was alleviated by ventilating oxygen into Michael’s lungs, it means that Michael was dying every night for those 2 months.

    And all this because Murray simply did not know how to properly administer propofol – he is no anesthesiologist and doesn’t know that every single milliliter there may be critical for the patient. And the fact that he agreed to administer propofol not knowing how to do it is his second major crime .

    And this in addition to all the craziness that took place on June 25 – neglecting his patient, not calling 911, doing improper CPR, etc.. all of which is a separate crime requiring capital punishment.

    As he didn’t know how to do it he simply made slits in the vials and propofol freely flowed down. And it was a miracle that Michael was able to wake up after gallons of propofol poured into him in such an uncontrolled way. It is one thing to wake up after you’ve received a minimal dose given by a proper anesthesiologist and it is another thing to wake up after Murray oversedated you with surplus propofol night after night.

    And again, if at the very start of it Murray had referred Michael to sleep specialists and if during those 3 months of preparations before the show the problem had not been resolved without administering propofol, it was for the council of physicians to decide what to do further.

    He had to do the shows and they had to find a way to help him. In those circumstances I do not rule out that they could have (probably) agreed to an unconventional method like propofol and of course in a hospital setting or at home, but with all the equipment present and a qualified assistant attending to the process.

    What I mean is that a doctor has two duties to his patient – he cannot do harm to him but he cannot abandon him in his problem either. And we know of cases when desperate patients agree to experimental ways of treating their health problems. Experimental treatment was possible – only it should have been done under full and even double medical control.

    Like

  64. Linda permalink
    October 14, 2011 8:14 am

    @vindicatemj

    Regina, I should probably take away the word murder out of the headline of the post. I probably said it too soon. But the evidence against Murray is indeed overwhelming.

    It is indeed!!! No matter how it happened, he was killed and that is murder, whether intentional or not, he was still murdered, and I just can’t see Murray getting out of this. I also still believe AEG had a hand in it as a driving force. Again intentional or not, it was still murder, and you might as well throw in the media.

    They all helped kill him, and are still busy slandering him, and sadly the public is still buying it. Makes you wonder when it will ever end and the public will see him for what he was. All he ever wanted to do was help people, especially kids, and my God, get some sleep. I am an insomniac, but I do get some sleep every night. He would go 2 and 3 days at a time with no sleep, and somehow function and still try to help the world.

    In his song, “Will you be there” he says, “I’m only human”. I think he was a superman to have endured all he was put through for as long as he did. He truly did have elephant skin, but even a superman has a limit, and he did bleed for a very long time. The world needs to stop listening to cheap gossip and repeating it, and start searching for the truth. This is a man who deserves the utmost respect. I just can’t figure out what’s wrong with people and why they can’t see what’s going on. It is so obvious.

    Thanks guys, for keeping me up on what’s going on in court during the week. I try to catch up mostly on the weekends and very little during the work week.

    Like

  65. October 14, 2011 6:17 am

    The Defense team were using trickery when cross-examining the Coroner. The questions that were be given to the coroner should have been saved for the toxicologist. They so don’t have a case.

    Like

  66. Deborah permalink
    October 14, 2011 1:18 am

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-trial-propofol-dosing-expert.html

    Conrad Murray trial: Propofol dosing requires care, expert says
    October 13, 2011

    Jurors in the trial of Michael Jackson’s doctor began hearing Thursday from a top expert on propofol, the surgical anesthetic that led to the singer’s death.

    Dr. Steven Shafer, a professor of anesthesiology at Columbia University, told jurors that when the drug was first introduced in the early 1990s for sedation, he conducted the research that established the dosing guidelines that are still currently in use.

    Shafer said in his analysis, he discovered that propofol had to be used carefully because if the doctor is “off by just a little,” a dose could result in a patient taking hours rather than minutes to wake up from sedation.

    Dr. Conrad Murray is accused of involuntary manslaughter for Jackson’s June 25, 2009, death from the effects of the drug, which he said he gave the singer nightly over two months to get him to sleep.

    Responding to a prosecutor’s questions, Shafer also corrected what a defense attorney had earlier told jurors – -that he was a student of the defense’s main medical expert, Dr. Paul White.

    Shafer said while the two experts are longtime friends and colleagues, he was never a student of White.
    An attorney for Murray told jurors during opening statements last month that White was known among his peers as “the father of propofol.”

    Shafer was only on the stand long enough to detail his lengthy qualifications before court adjourned for the day for scheduling reasons.

    Earlier Thursday, a defense attorney asked a sleep doctor who reviewed Murray’s care for the California Medical Board if Murray was culpable even if Jackson gave himself the drugs that killed him.

    “Is it your position that even if Michael Jackson self-medicated with excessive amounts of lorazepam … pushed 25 milligrams of propofol, Dr. Murray is still responsible for his death?” attorney Michael Flanagan asked.

    “Absolutely,” Dr. Nader Kamangar responded.

    Flanagan then asked whether a doctor who prescribed 30 Ambien sleeping pills to a patient who takes them all at once to commit suicide would be responsible for the patient’s death.

    A prosecutor objected to the question, and the judge did not allow it.

    Under additional questioning by a prosecutor, Kamangar said “knowing when to say no” when a patient asks for something that could be harmful is one of the fundamental elements of a physician-patient relationship.

    “No matter how much the patient may complain, no matter how much the patient may beg, you as the doctor should say no?” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked.

    “That’s correct,” Kamangar replied.

    Walgren also later asked whether it was Murray’s actions that resulted in Jackson’s death.

    “In this case, Conrad Murray was grossly negligent in multiple instances and that gross negligence directly caused the death of Michael Jackson, is that correct?” he asked.

    “That’s correct,” Kamangar said.

    Like

  67. October 14, 2011 12:21 am

    ” just pisses me off that if or when murray goes down he will only get 4 years :O that is shocking he should get life for MURDER!!!”

    Yes, it is. But you know, sometimes I think that if they printed in indelible paint the words “I killed Michael Jackson” on his forehead and let him walk free, it would probably also serve the purpose. Of course only in case the public were ready to understand what it means. Unfortunately if Judah Iscariot walked about with a similar label on himself some people at the time would only glorify him for committing that crime.

    Like

  68. Truth Prevail permalink
    October 13, 2011 11:30 pm

    ughh just pisses me off that if or when murray goes down he will only get 4 years :O that is shocking he should get life for MURDER!!!

    Like

  69. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 11:21 pm

    Very keen to hear Dr Schafer’s views on the treatment Murray gave. Agree with you H, re complexity of testimony. Crucial that the jury really concentrate. I know I have to.

    Like

  70. October 13, 2011 11:20 pm

    It has finally worked for me but the first part was lost.
    I wonder how the jurors are doing. It looks like a university course for them.

    Like

  71. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 9:44 pm

    This works great.

    http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8366366

    Like

  72. October 13, 2011 8:46 pm

    Have you tried this site, Helena? http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/livevideo?id=8361777 It’s working fine for me!

    David, I’ve used it before but now it is being interrupted every other second with huge gaps in between. If it is all right for you is it because of my computer? If it goes that way I’ll have to use recorded videos only.

    Like

  73. lcpledwards permalink
    October 13, 2011 8:36 pm

    Have you tried this site, Helena? http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/livevideo?id=8361777

    It’s working fine for me!

    Like

  74. October 13, 2011 8:10 pm

    SOS! None of the live channels I used before are not actually working. Can anyone recommend a channel with less traffic and no problems?

    Like

  75. October 13, 2011 7:49 pm

    I hope to post information about Alon Steinberg tomorrow. In the meantime here is an article which besides Alan Steinberg’s remarkable testimony also says that the defense is dropping their claim that MJ swallowed propofol. Instead they will apparently focus on Lorazepam taken orally:

    LOS ANGELES – A cardiologist testified Wednesday that Michael Jackson’s physician made major mistakes in giving the singer the anesthetic propofol to help him sleep and the doctor’s lawyers made an adjustment in their strategy .
    Attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray told the judge in his manslaughter trial that they were dropping their claim that Jackson swallowed propofol when Murray was out of the room. The defense still is arguing that the singer could have injected himself with an extra, fatal dose on June 25, 2009.
    “We are not going to assert at any point in time in this trial that Michael Jackson orally ingested propofol,” Murray’s attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the judge.
    Murray has admitted giving the 50-year-old Jackson 25 milligrams of propofol.

    With the jury out of the courtroom on Wednesday, Murray’s attorneys and prosecutors presented medical studies to the judge that have shown propofol has no major effects on a person when swallowed.
    Dr. Alon Steinberg, a cardiologist who reviewed Murray’s treatment of Jackson for the California medical board, said even if the singer administered propofol to himself, the physician still would be responsible for his death.
    “It’s like leaving a baby that’s sleeping on your kitchen countertop,” Steinberg said. “You look at it and it’s probably going to be OK and you’re just going to go grab some diapers or go to the bathroom but you would never do it.”
    Steinberg said Murray displayed six “extreme deviations” from the generally accepted standard of care.
    Those were: Administering propofol for sleep when it is meant for anesthesia; giving it at a home instead of a medical facility; not being prepared for an emergency with enough staff and equipment on hand; not taking the proper measures to revive Jackson when the singer stopped breathing; not immediately calling for an ambulance; and not keeping proper records.
    “If these deviations hadn’t happened, Mr. Jackson would have been alive,” Steinberg said.
    Steinberg and Murray are both cardiologists. Steinberg’s findings were relied upon by the California medical board earlier this year when it suspended Murray’s doctor’s license.
    “I’ve never heard of anyone using propofol for sleep except Dr. Murray,” Steinberg said.
    Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter, faces up to four years in prison if convicted.

    http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/2011/10/12/pf-18815431.html

    In preparation for talking about Alon Steinberg’s testimony Murray’s own timeline of the events (from his interview with the detectives) and the chart of his telephone conversations have been repeated in this post.

    Like

  76. October 13, 2011 5:36 pm

    Another portion of the post was added. It is about Dr. Christopher Rogers’s testimony:

    Dr. Christopher Rogers is actually the great doctor to whom we are obliged for overturning “an ordinary death” smooth scenario into a homicide case.

    Dr. Rogers is Deputy Medical Examiner for Los Angeles and Chief of Forensic Medicine, which is part of the pathology medicine that deals with violent and unexplained deaths. His entire career was devoted to pathology. He personally handled several thousand autopsies and conducted an autopsy of Michael Jackson on June 26, 2009.

    An autopsy is an examination of the outside and each of internal organs in pursue of the cause of death. The outside of Michael’s body did not have any abnormalities which would be suggestive of the way he died.

    This reminded me of the Discovery channel’s plans to show an online autopsy of Michael’s body which besides being totally unethical was also absolutely useless – what was there to show if there was nothing on the outside?

    On the day of the autopsy he was unable to determine the cause of the death. Specimen for toxicology tests were sent out for further examination. Prosecutor David Walgren asked Dr. Rogers about the overall health of Michael Jackson and he said that Michael was healthier than the average person of his age.

    Yes, all those Michael Jackson’s detractors who still call him derogatory names, please remember that he was healthier than any of you who entered or will enter the age of 50. And this, my dear ones, can only be the result of a healthy way of life and healthy way of thinking…

    Unfortunately David Walgren showed a picture of Michael Jackson dead. I didn’t really look because I didn’t want to. However here is the picture of Michael’s arm which shows where all those numerous punctures found on his body came from.

    Dr. Rogers said that Michael’s coronary system did not show any atherosclerosis (the build-up of fat and cholesterol in the blood vessels of his heart).

    The extremely reserved Dr. Rogers looked visibly surprised when he said it and when Walgren asked why, he explained that at the age of 50 almost everyone has atherosclerosis – however Michael Jackson didn’t have any.

    Among Michael’s specific features he noted his vitiligo skin disorder, a chronic inflammation and scarring of lungs, enlargement of prostate which made it difficult to urinate (this malady of ageing men did not unfortunately bypass him, poor thing), arthritis, an irregular depigmentation area on the top of his scalp (where he had a burn during the filming of a commercial) and some other minor points like root canal therapy and others.

    Michael Jackson’s height was 5 feet 9 inches / 175 centimeters and he weighed 68 Kgs / 136 lbs. Walgren suggested that Mr. Jackson was thin but Dr. Rogers said that his body mass index was within the normal range.

    The doctor analyzed all parts of Michael’s digestive and respiratory systems for signs of propofol – beginning from mouth to the stomach and from the upper airway to the lungs – but didn’t find any signs of propofol. The stomach contained 70ml of dark liquid which he specifically examined for presence of any pills or tablets as the cause of death, but the liquid did not contain any.

    At this point I recalled all those tabloids screaming of dozens of terrible pills in Michael’s stomach and printing huge pictures of Xanax and Demerol on their front pages. Here is the one I made a screen shot of – let it stay here as a monument to their disgrace.

    Dr. Rogers sought medical records from Conrad Murray regarding his treatment of Michael Jackson but was not able to obtain any.

    He had consultations with other doctors including anesthesiologists before determining the cause of Michael’s death and after collecting all the results concluded that it was HOMICIDE. This determination was based on several issues:

    – Murray’s own statement to the police in which he admitted administering benzodiazepines and the propofol
    – the risk of administering propofol under those circumstances outweighed the benefits of it
    – the setting was outside the clinic
    – there was no precision device that could measure how much propofol was being given
    – there was no monitoring and resuscitation equipment present, no equipment to improve MJ’s circulatory function
    – the overall circumstances did not support self-administration of propofol.

    In forming his conclusion over the “self-administration” point he chose between two scenarios. The first was that MJ supposedly woke up and still being under the effect of sedation drew propofol from a vial, reached for the IV port and self- injected it there. Since the injection was supposedly given in the leg (under the knee) it also takes longer time to reach the brain, so within 2 minutes Murray was away it was not a realistic scenario to happen.

    The alternate scenario was that the doctor gave Michael a bigger doze than required.

    Dr. Roger explained this point in detail. The initial 25ml doze of propofol reportedly given by Murray was not big. After that he had to give additional dozes to keep MJ sleeping – this would be 2-3 table spoonfuls of propofol per hour. It was imperative that the dosage should be precise for fear of excessive administration – however they didn’t find any precision dosing device on the scene and without it the doctor was unable to estimate how much propofol he was giving. Since the device was missing it was more likely that Murray overdosed his patient (in the best case scenario).

    The cause of death was acute propofol intoxication with a contributing effect of benzodiazepines (Midazolam and Lorazepam). These two drugs would bring about a quicker depression of breathing and would exacerbate the effect of propofol.

    Dr. Rogers went over the diagram of MJ’s body and showed numerous punctures resulting from the resuscitation efforts (shame on all those who scorned Michael for all those punctures!).

    Considering that the paramedics worked on Michael’s body for some 20 minutes or so and then the emergency room doctors did the same for an hour and 15 minutes the punctures made were numerous. I hope that tabloids will finally shut up after hearing all that.

    And before going on an afternoon break Dr. Rogers and David Walgren dropped a sort of a bomb. They examined the photos of the stopper on the 100ml propofol vial (the one in the IV bag) and found that it had a totally different puncture mark that the one usually left by a syringe needle.

    That stopper had a slit. It was a line stretching from side to side all through the middle of the stopper.

    Dr. Roger said that he had seen such marks before. They come from a device which is seldom used now (the last time he used it was in medical school). It is called a spike. It cuts through the stopper and the propofol will freely flow down the end of it.

    A spike allows the propofol to uncontrollably drip from the vial or even produce a steady stream from it. At that point it occurred to me that the case was rapidly turning into a murder one.

    It probably occurred to many of us as after the break John Michael Flanagan of the Defense suggested all sorts of fantasy theories to explain the strange mark on the rubber stopper. Unfortunately Dr. Rogers simply confirmed that some theories were possible without giving his evaluation of such actions – thus possibly creating the impression that it was okay to do all those things.

    What Flanagan suggested, for example, was that the vial of propofol (with a slit in the rubber) was put inside the IV saline bag in order to dilute it with saline and administer propofol this way. The theory is totally outrageous – a dirty vial is dropped into a sterile liquid and creates some sort of a mix then dripped into a body? Even in war-time conditions doctors would not do a thing like that! And the propofol concentration will be so little that it won’t take any effect anyway! After listening for half an hour to this crazy talk we hear Flanagan finally admitting that no signs of propofol were found in the IV bag (so all that show was for the sake of show only).

    The Defense does indeed grasps at straws.

    One of Flanagan’s attempts attracted my attention though. He started to develop a theory that after the first 5 minutes of sleep – which would be induced by the initial 25ml of propofol – the patient could go on sleeping naturally just “because he was tired”. This by the way may be pointing to what really happened there – Murray could have administered something, and when his patient did not wake up, he could go on with his business being happy that the patient was quiet at last and no longer a nuisance. Dr. Rogers merely said “yes” without giving his assessment of it.

    Since the Defense is now fully focusing on a theory of “self-administration” of Lorazepam (and not propofol) Flanagan forced Dr. Rogers to make some calculations and admit that the concentration of Lorazepam in the stomach was four times as big as in the femoral blood. (Femoral blood is periphery blood and is different from central blood near the heart as it is less susceptible to postmortem changes).

    However whatever concentration it was we still remember that the amount of Lorazepam found in the stomach was equal to only 1/43d part of one pill 2mg pill of Lorazepam which is a ridiculously small dose unable to cause death. Proof of it was presented by David Walgren on week 2 of the trial during the testimony of toxicologist Dan Andersen.

    During re-crossing Dr. Rogers David Walgren specifically noted that most of the Defense’s questions centered on pharmacology and were beyond Dr. Rogers’s area of expertise.

    Finally Walgren asked him a very important question. Even if Murray’s scenario was correct and the half-sedated patient was left with Lorazepam or Propofol beside his bed and took it while the doctor was away WAS IT STILL A HOMICIDE?

    Dr. Rogers said “YES”.

    Like

  77. Maria permalink
    October 13, 2011 3:37 pm

    Michael had vitiligo. It is a fact now. Dr Rogers confirmed this.

    Like

  78. October 13, 2011 2:43 pm

    Guys, I’ve added to the post information about Detective Smith’s testimony. Here it is:

    Detective Scott Smith is continuing his testimony. From the tape of his interview with Murray on June 27, 2009 (the link) one gets the impression that he and Detective Orlando Martinez were having more of a gossipy chat with Murray than an official police interview. There were times when they laughed and Murray apparently felt very relaxed throughout the process.

    The policemen disclosed to Murray some of their findings and when Murray heard of Michael using eye drops he said “Surprise, surprise” and sounded like rolling his eyes– he didn’t know that the drops were prescribed by Arnold Klein and his reaction implied that you could expect any unaccounted for behaviour from Jackson, to which the policemen tacitly agreed.

    Those seasoned detectives allowed Murray to lead them in the discussion and left his monologue unchallenged – in fact they looked like two gullible housewives who listen to someone’s story with their mouths open. The detectives were too ready to believe anything bad about Jackson and this is the reason why they didn’t take the case seriously – at least until August 27 when the Coroner’s office suddenly pronounced the cause of death as HOMICIDE.

    They were so sure there was nothing to look into that they didn’t do the basic things they were expected to do. They didn’t really talk to Alberto Alvarez and Faheem Mohammed as all they got from them was their contact information. Now – at the trial – this gives a chance to the Defense to claim that these witnesses initially “withheld” something from the police as they shared it only in August. But what if they were asked only in August?

    They actually went into every direction Murray sent them to, losing valuable time and overlooking the real criminal under their very nose. They didn’t issue the search warrants of Conrad Murray’s home and went to Arnold Klein instead. Their first “serious” (Walgren’s word) search warrants were executed on June 29 only when they searched Michael Jackson’s house and Dr. Klein’s office (not Conrad Murray’s). They looked into Murray’s car though and found his contract with AEG there.

    They didn’t demand then and there Murray’s medical records about his patient – in fact they are not doing it even in the June 27 interview as the tape shows it – and they let him go on his own after that. None of them could locate Murray the day before as his telephone was not answering and all their messages went to voice mail but even this did not raise a red flag for them.

    They didn’t search the closet until Murray told them he had left his bags there. Now the defense presents it as Murray’s virtue claiming that he did it of his own free will, while his “honesty” has a totally different root – he was sure that the police had found the bags and was startled to find out that they had not. Detective Smith described Murray’s eyes widening and him leaning forward in amazement at hearing this news.

    The police didn’t seal Michael Jackson’s home and if Murray had known it he could have very well entered it again and destroyed the valuable evidence. Detective Smith suggested it be sealed but was told that under the circumstances it wasn’t needed.

    They finally searched Murray’s clinic on July 22 and only on July 28 went to his home, office and storage room – which was actually a month after Michael Jackson’s death. Needless it to say that there was no propofol found there.

    It was only the search made at the Applied Pharmacy Services which was conducted on August 11th that they found all those numerous invoices of shipments to Murray which finally sent them on the right track.

    All that slackness on the part of the police gave Chernoff a chance to find numerous faults with them and their witnesses.

    He asked questions like “You did talk to Alvarez in the hospital and he didn’t tell you of the vials or bag until August, did he?” “And Faheem Mohammed didn’t tell you that Dr.Murray wanted to go back to the residence?” Of course they didn’t as the police never asked and took only their contact information!

    Chernoff made a mammoth story out of Smith not seeing the coroner investigator Ms. Fleak taking a propofol bottle out of the IV bag (as if her statement is not enough for it). Well, Detective Smith was simply not looking at that moment. Chernoff further pressed the point and said that Smith recorded an empty Lorazepam bottle from the bathroom as being in a bag and presumed it was that very IV bag, but Smith said that it was a debris bag. To me the whole thing sounded like Smith didn’t really care what bag it was when he was writing it.

    Chernoff turned the police phrase “Stop looking into other doctors!” into another big mountain, but Smith explained it by some “head-on” with other departments who were looking into those doctors and their work interfering with each other.

    Even Walgren sounded a little embarrassed when he tried to excuse the detectives’s lack of attention and too much confidence in Murray’s story by suggesting questions like:

    – “Your knowledge of the case was limited at that time?” “Yes, very limited”

    – “There is very little questioning done by Orlando Martinez and you during that interview. Was it your tactic to allow Conrad Murray to tell his story?” “It wasn’t an interrogation. It was an interview”

    – “Did you have the phone records at the time?” ”No, we didn’t”.

    – “Were you prepared for it? Do you have any medical education?” “No”.

    Well, whatever the detective says now it is clear that their unwillingness to regard Michael Jackson’s death as a scene of crime could spring only from their preconceived notions about the man and the habitual way of thinking that whatever happens to Michael Jackson he is always to blame for it and is always the result of his “bad judgment”.

    They simply couldn’t believe that Michael could become a victim of a crime.

    Under the heavy influence of that stereotype they allowed themselves to never doubt Murray’s story and go in the directions he willfully sent them into.

    In short they let Michael down even in his death.

    Like

  79. October 13, 2011 12:35 pm

    “Dr. Steinbergs proof of Murray’s guilt bases on Murray’s own story, especially on the 2 minutes he allegedly left Michael. In this case Michael could have been saved. The other story with 11 o’clock would require a different approach to the proof of his guilt, because then Michael would have been dead for a longer time and it would have been too late to save him. So for the prosecution it depends on which one is easier to prove. But my head is spinning right now, I really don’t know how to explain what I mean.”

    It seems that out of the two stories – the 12 o’clock and the 11 o’clock ones – the prosecution selected the most difficult scenario, where Murray claimed that he had only 5-10 minutes for taking action. Dr. Steinberg made an marvelous job of showing that even this relatively small delay was critical and that Murray’s actions were totally unprofessional (which means that during those two days before the interview Murray couldn’t even make up a story which would sound professional!)

    But if Murray’s actions were criminal under the 5-10 minutes scenario how much more criminal his actions are if he had an hour and 5-10 minutes to act? This is probably why the prosecution started with the 12 o’clock version of the events. If he is guilty there, he is ten times as guilty in the 11 o’clock version.

    I apologize for not updating the post yet – haven’t had a spare minute as there is a pile of work to do. I hope to update it at the first opportunity.

    Like

  80. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 12:07 pm

    Mark Lester stated he belived licence removal is sufficient punity for Murray’s action and inaction. Chopra’s gist was that Michael’s past use of prescription drugs made the events of June 25, 2009 — inevitable. Despite the fact these two men have links — albeit not recent — to Michael, their position does lend credence to Mesereau’s contention that had Murray been tried under a murder charge a jury would have balked at that.

    It should be noted that given the recent law change in California concerning cases that fall into this bracket of crime, that even if Murray is found to be guilty he may not in fact serve any jail time. It may be that loss of licence and a suspended sentence is the most that will be achieved.

    Like

  81. Susanne permalink*
    October 13, 2011 10:45 am

    Thank you very much, Dick Zimmerman, for this statement:
    http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/10/12/drew-michael-jackson-photog.cnn?iref=allsearch
    But it was typical: They even didn’t want to give him the time to say it! Drew wants to hear something of Zimmerman to unterstand MJ, but then he doesn’t want to give him more than 30 seconds!

    Like

  82. Lynette permalink
    October 13, 2011 6:24 am

    Dr. Murray’s interview actually gave us a lot of answers about some of the things that the prosecution did and the questions they asked some of the witnesses. Say for instance those questions of Faheem Mohammad, Alberto Alverez and others about which door they went into and what they went in that door for. Because they knew they were going to play this tape and they wanted to show the jury that the testimony of others does not support what this man says happened.
    Today the Jackson family released a comment that what Murray said in that tape about how wonderful he was about the kids and Katherine did not happen. Dr. Cooper says that she and her team of Social Workers broke the news to the family. Dr. Murray told them he did not know what other drugs Michael was taking or who he was getting them from but he contradicts himself when he says that he saw medication bottles and he was in the room when Michael called Dr. Klein’s office to see. If he could get in. He also contradicts himself when he says he was giving drip and then a bolus which is what it would have to be if he wanted to maintain the level of sedation. And of course we know don’t we that he was now doing inadequate CPR on a heart that did not need CPR according to him when he was on the phone. One of two phones that he could not call 911 one because he did not know the zip code, he could not stop giving inadequate unnecessary CPR to tell Michael Amir Williams to call 911 because he would have had to explain why. He could not even tell one of the 4 girlfriends he was on the phone with at the time to call 911 for him.
    We heard today that Michael would have been alive if only he would have done that one thing. Call 911. Dr. Steinburg said once he saw that Michael wasn’t breathing he starting acting like a Cardiologist and doing CPR before CPR was even needed but he did not even act like a normal everyday person when he did not call 911 knowing that he needed their equipment to revive Michael.
    I don’t know if anyone understands this but the other reason that this is so important is this. If Murray was telling so many lies in this interview why would anyone believe him when he says how much propofol he gave Michael. The prosecution might not have the tubing he threw away that connected that drip to Michael but they have the common sense of every juror when they say how do we know what to believe from this man.

    Like

  83. October 13, 2011 6:10 am

    (add-on) Essentially, in his expert testimony Dr. Steinberg made Murray eat his own words.

    Like

  84. October 13, 2011 6:09 am

    Dr. Steinberg said he studied and prepared for months for this day. I have to admire all the time and effort he put into it. He more or less committed the interview transcript to memory and knew it better than Flanagan. I find his testimony inspiring. Excellence is its own reward. He single-handedly shot down Flanagan and his whole line of defense. It was awesome to watch. I have a few issues with the sleep-specialist, since he bought into the tabloid interpretation of Michael as an addict. I have no doubt if he had known more about Michael’s life and medical history he would have come to a better conclusion. This is just one example of how injurious the incessant tabloid lies are, when even the most decent people get tricked into thinking the lies are facts.

    Like

  85. Lynette permalink
    October 13, 2011 5:30 am

    I doubt that there is another Doctor out there that thinks loosing his license is good enough for what Murray did. Jail time is the only answer for someone like him that clearly has a God Complex. Do any of us think that Murray would stop practicing if he lost his license. I don’t he would just do it behind the scene and in a back alley somewhere until he really does murder someone.A simple suspension for the loss of the life of a good friend? I don’t live with hate in my heart for Murray but he has to be stopped because it costs human life and like I said loss of license means nothing to him.

    Like

  86. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 4:10 am

    Mark Lester on HLN on Octpber 12, 2011, said a prison sentence would be “too harsh” for Murray, but his license should be “suspended.”

    Like

  87. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 4:06 am

    Day 11 of trial: October 12, 2011: ( Will add as they appear. Lets keep them in one window):

    Part 1:

    Part 2:

    Part 3:

    Part 4:

    Part 5/Last:

    Like

  88. Teva permalink
    October 13, 2011 2:28 am

    @Lynette
    “Actually the prosecution had to show the photo to the jury. It is part of a homicide trial and is to be expected. I think we were fortunate that they chose the one that they did. You see the jury has to see that Michael is dead. I knowit doesn’t make any sense but it gives them a yes. ” – Lynette

    There was no reason to show a naked photo of a dead Michael Jackson. I think the jury got the idea he was dead from the first photo when he was still dead on a guerney. I am so vex with the prosecution for doing this, and I agree with Mark Gergagos – if they wanted to show this picture to the jury, they could have done so, but seal it from the public.

    Like

  89. Sarah Brown permalink
    October 13, 2011 1:22 am

    I was on Lorazepam nightly for two years due to my insomnia. The tablets were 1mg each.
    After about a week, I would cut the tablets in half because I found 1mg to strong.
    I would fall asleep usually within 10 minutes of taking half a tablet. I found even that amount affected me during the day. It affected my memory and concentration. After two years I eventually and slowly weened myself off.

    I can’t imagine getting it by drip. Why wasn’t he put in a sleep disorder clinic? It only takes one night of observation,perhaps two to rule out many things that might be causing the insomnia.

    Michael had such a good heart, I wonder if he was fully aware of the reality of psychopaths,
    He seems to have been around them since childhood,but when you tend to want to see the good in people it is hard to compute that their are people who have no conscience. He must have been aware but didn’t see it in Conrad Murray.

    I do believe that Michael is in a wonderful place now, in the real Neverland. In Heaven. Perhaps this will all help to truly vindicate him in the end and help draw people back to that sweet, complicated, gentle light that was and is Mr. Michael Jackson.

    Like

  90. MOA permalink
    October 13, 2011 12:37 am

    Tom Mesereau will join Radar Live to discuss developments in Michael Jackson’s death trial.

    http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-live-talk-michael-jackson-autopsy-photo-tom-mesereau

    Like

  91. Deborah permalink
    October 13, 2011 12:36 am

    That is likely Helena.

    I will load the trial clips when they appear.

    Like

  92. October 13, 2011 12:12 am

    My comments relate to trial day 10,parts 1 to 6.

    Like

  93. Susanne permalink*
    October 12, 2011 11:54 pm

    Yes, it’s really undescribable what we see here today. Dr. Steinbergs proof of Murray’s guilt bases on Murray’s own story, especially on the 2 minutes he allegedly left Michael. In this case Michael could have been saved. The other story with 11 o’clock would require a different approach to the proof of his guilt, because then Michael would have been dead for a longer time and it would have been too late to save him. So for the prosecution it depends on which one is easier to prove. But my head is spinning right now, I really don’t know how to explain what I mean.

    Like

  94. October 12, 2011 11:53 pm

    “This crucial period you mention is something I am hoping the prosecution do not fail to bring attention to — despite Steinberg’s unequivocal testimony”.

    I also hope very much that the prosecution will raise it. Probably they think it isn’t the right moment.

    Like

  95. Deborah permalink
    October 12, 2011 11:35 pm

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MICHAEL_JACKSON_DOCTOR?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

    Oct 12, 2:29 PM EDT

    Defense drops claim Jackson swallowed fatal dose

    By ANTHONY McCARTNEY
    AP Entertainment Writer

    LOS ANGELES (AP) — An attorney for the doctor charged in Michael Jackson’s death on Wednesday dropped the defense claim that the superstar swallowed a fatal dose of the anesthetic propofol while the physician wasn’t looking.

    The defense claim had been a key tactic in the case of Dr. Conrad Murray.

    Attorney J. Michael Flanagan told the judge that he had commissioned a study about the effects of propofol if swallowed. The studies showed that any effect from swallowing propofol would be “trivial,” he said.

    “We are not going to assert at any time during this trial that Michael Jackson orally administered propofol,” Flanagan said.

    It was unclear if the defense planned to argue if Jackson might have injected himself with the fatal dose.

    In recent days, Flanagan has focused his questions toward prosecution witnesses on the effect that the sedative lorazepam might have had on Jackson. Lorazepam was detected in Jackson’s stomach contents after he died.

    Deputy District Attorney David Walgren and Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor appeared surprised by the disclosure, which was not made in front of jurors.

    Lead defense attorney Ed Chernoff said during opening statements on Sept. 27 that his team would try to show that Jackson gave himself the fatal dose of propofol.

    Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter.

    Prosecutors are in the final stages of their case against Murray, with three expert witnesses set to testify about their impressions of Murray’s actions in the days and hours before Jackson’s death and his efforts to revive him.

    On Wednesday, Walgren called Dr. Alon Steinberg, a cardiologist who told jurors that Murray’s conduct violated the standard of care in several ways. He said Murray lacked the propofol monitoring or life-saving equipment when he was giving Jackson the anesthetic and other sedatives as a sleep aid.

    Authorities say Murray gave Jackson a fatal dose of the surgical anesthetic in June 2009.

    A medical examiner told jurors Tuesday that it was unreasonable to believe that Jackson gave himself the fatal dose of propofol when Murray left the room for only two minutes.

    Dr. Christopher Rogers, who conducted the autopsy on Jackson, testified it was more likely that Murray overdosed the singer when he incorrectly estimated how much of the drug he was giving Jackson to induce sleep to fight insomnia. He said Murray had no precision dosing device available in the bedroom of Jackson’s rented mansion.

    “The circumstances, from my point of view, do not support self-administration of propofol,” said Rogers, chief of forensic medicine in the Los Angeles County Coroner’s Office.

    Murray told police he gave Jackson only 25 milligrams of the drug, a very small dose that usually would have kept him asleep for no more than five minutes.

    Rogers said he examined evidence found in Jackson’s bedroom and noted there was an empty 100 milliliter bottle of propofol.

    Rogers said the cause of death was “acute propofol intoxication and the contributing condition was the benzodiazepine effect.”

    Two sedatives from that drug group – lorazepam and midazolam – were found in Jackson’s system after he died.

    Rogers also testified it would be inappropriate to use propofol outside a hospital or medical clinic.

    Flanagan spent more than two hours Tuesday trying to show on cross-examination that Jackson indeed could have self-administered drugs – not just propofol but the sedative lorazepam, which could be taken in pill form.

    Flanagan suggested to the witness that once Murray had started an IV drip of propofol for Jackson and left the room, “it would be easy for someone to inject into that IV?”

    “Yes,” Rogers replied.

    “But if they pushed it all at once, that can stop your heart, can’t it?” the lawyer asked.

    “Yes,” said Rogers.

    The implication was that if Jackson was desperate for sleep and in a hurry to administer more propofol before his doctor returned, he might have given himself a fatal dose.

    But Rogers noted that investigators don’t really know what happened when Murray left the room, so they were left to consider what is reasonable.

    AP Special Correspondent Linda Deutsch contributed to this report.

    Like

  96. October 12, 2011 11:32 pm

    And I cannot imagine Michael hopping around with an iv behind his knee and a condom catheter to get it from some bathroom.Only murray must have left it on the night table easily at hand.A mortal sin under the circumstances,

    Like

  97. October 12, 2011 11:28 pm

    Flanagan went on ad infinitum about Lorazepam and managed to confuse many.Here it comes only on 1mg tablets and is meant for allieviation of presurgery anxiety, 2-4 mgs the night before or 1-2 mg the morning before surgery.No longer than 2-3 months use is recommended for severe anxiety,this time including the time for gradual withdrawal.In these cases dose is according to patient response.Never ever heard about it´s use for sedation or anestesia.In overdose it can cause paradoxical reactions
    with severe agitation and confusion, coma.1st to 3rd degree. Death is exedingly unusual. I don´t have the US PDR, maybe someone over there can look up what is stated re Lorazepam there.Here not even sedation during “proceedures” is mentioned as an indication.There must be a reason the toxicologists did not include it in their estimations of concentrations. .

    Like

  98. Deborah permalink
    October 12, 2011 11:22 pm

    Nutshell:

    Flanagan: “So in essence if Dr. Conrad Murray had called 911 Michael Jackson would be here today?

    Dr Steinberg: “Yes Sir.”

    “Theatre of the absurd” is exactly what we are watching. This crucial period you mention Helena is something I am hoping the prosecution do not fail to bring attention to — despite Steinberg’s unequivocal testimony.

    Like

  99. October 12, 2011 11:18 pm

    Guys, I feel like I am attending the theater of the absurd. For some reason it is Flanagan who mentioned the 11 o’clock crucial moment and for some reason it is the prosecution who are not saying a word about it.

    The only supposition I can make is that the defense and prosecution have already been through this before and probably during the preliminary investigation Murray claimed that he had made a mistake in his estimation of time (as Flanagan has just suggested in his questions) and all that he previously said about the period of 10.30-11.00 actually refers to approximately an hour later – 11.30-12.00.

    With regard to the telephone calls it doesn’t make much difference as during that period of time he was also talking on the phone – unless this information was refuted by the defense (probably they gave a ridiculous explanation that it wasn’t a conversation but just a call from his clinic which was ringing for 32 minutes or was sending a fax or whatever). The people from the telephone company earlier said that they could not prove whether the person really talked and it is only the duration of the call which may show what it was – ringing without answering the phone, a voice mail or a conversation. Murray could have said that the telephone was just ringing and he never talked to his people in the clinic and the other side will also stick to his story as he is their boss.

    But what is interesting in the cross-examination of the cardiologist is that even in case Murray changed his story to a more plausible one (which shifts the time forward at least by an hour and reduces the time of his inaction to some minimal 5-10 minutes) the cardiologist is still successful in proving Murray’s guilt! Moreover he is using Murray’s own story to show that he could have saved Michael’s life – if all this really happened just before 12 o’clock as Murray says.

    The whole thing is totally indescribable. Now I think I should start this post with the telephone calls and the timeline once again in order to try and get through this huge wall of lies.

    Like

  100. Deborah permalink
    October 12, 2011 11:15 pm

    You are so right Helena. Before cross, this is a stunning day for the prosecution. Apparently there is a statement from Flanagan circulating that the defense has dropped the ‘swallowing’ component of the self-admin defense from their array. Yet to see it.

    Here is what Reuters are reporting:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/12/idUS282494906320111012

    Conrad Murray Trial, Day 11: Expert Lists Six Counts of Gross Negligence (Live Feed), Update 1

    Update, 10:10 a.m. PT

    Dr. Alon Steinberg, an expert reviewer for the California Medical Board who reviewed Dr. Conrad Murray’s treatment of Michael Jackson, took the stand in Murray’s involuntary manslaughter trial Wednesday and detailed numerous ways in which Murray improperly treated Jackson in the time leading up to his death.

    In all, Steinberg (pictured) detailed six extreme deviations from standard care on Murray’s part — each of which, according to Steinberg, amount to gross negligence.

    Steinberg testified that Murray’s negligence included:

    –The use of the sedative propofol, when it isn’t medically indicated for insomnia

    — Administering propofol in someone’s home without the proper equipment, such as an EKG monitor

    — Administering propofol without the proper backup personnel in attendance.

    –Administering propofol with inadequate preparation in case of emergency.

    –Improper care during Jackson’s respiratory arrest. (“When he was trying to resuscitate Mr. Jackson, he didn’t follow proper protocol,” Steinberg testified, adding that performing chest compressions on a patient in respiratory arrest is “inexcusable,” as it’s not necessary in that situation)

    –Failure to call 911 in a timely manner. (Noting that Murray first called Jackson’s assistant, Michael Amir Williams, when he first noticed that the singer wasn’t breathing, Steinberg said, “It’s basic knowledge, you don’t have to be a health-care professional — when you see someone down, you have to call 911.”)

    –Failure to maintain proper medical records that could have been handed over to emergency-room personnel when Jackson arrived at UCLA Medical Center.

    The deviations in standard care, Steinberg concluded, directly impacted Jackson’s death.

    “If these deviations hadn’t happened, Mr. Jackson would be alive,” Steinberg told the court.

    Steinberg also criticized Murray’s decision to leave Jackson’s side while he was under the influence of propofol — which he likened to “leaving a baby who’s sleeping on your kitchen countertop” — and not keeping the medications properly locked up so that Jackson couldn’t get to them, which is what Murray’s defense team contends what happened on the day of his death.

    Previously….

    The prosecution in the Conrad Murray involuntary manslaughter trial has just three witnesses left to call to the stand before resting its case.

    CNN.com reports a sleep expert, a cardiologist and an anesthesiologist are in the prosecution’s line-up for Wednesday’s court proceedings. The three medical experts are expected to give specific and scientific testimony about Murray’s treatment of Michael Jackson leading up to and including his June 25, 2009 death.

    The Los Angeles County coroner ruled Jackson died of “acute propofol intoxication,” and that sedatives were also a factor. Prosecutors contend Murray is criminally liable for Jackson’s death because he recklessly administered the propofol, a potent surgical anesthetic drug, and was negligent in properly monitoring Jackson.

    Read more: Conrad Murray Trial, Day 10: Coroner’s Examiner Questions Doctor’s Story

    Tuesday’s courtroom action included the conclusion of the playback of Murray’s interview with police two days after Jackson died. During the interview, Murray revealed several details about Jackson’s other medical conditions — including serious problems with his feet and eyes.

    Murray also told police about his suspicions that Jackson had been receiving powerful medication from Beverly Hills dermatologist Arnold Klein. Murray said he was told Jackson visited Klein three times a week and returned “basically wasted.”

    Also on Tuesday, jurors heard the testimony of Dr. Christopher Rogers, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsy on Jackson and ruled his death a homicide.

    Rogers testified that it was physically possible that Jackson administered a fatal dose of propofol to himself, which the defense claims caused the singer’s death.

    Read more: Juror Questionnaire for Conrad Murray Trial Rife With Drug and Celebrity-Related Questions

    But Rogers also said it was unlikely that’s how events occurred, and said that even if the fatal dose was self-administered, Murray is still responsible for Jackson’s death because he provided his client with access to the drug and failed to properly monitor its usage.

    “Essentially, (Murray) would be estimating how much propofol he would be giving,” Rogers said. “I think it would be easy under those circumstances for the doctor to estimate wrong and give too much propofol.”

    CNN.com reports the trial could go to the jury as early as next week. Murray faces up to four years in prison and loss of his medical license if convicted.

    Like

  101. October 12, 2011 9:05 pm

    The cardiologist who is testifying at the moment has in my opinion dotted all the i’s and cross the t’s. I didn’t get his name as I missed the very beginning but he is just the right person to explain everything. I like the way he talks to the jury – even here he is not losing a chance to educate people on what they are supposed to do if they see somebody down. A real doctor. It is a pity Michael didn’t have someone like him to treat his insomnia.

    Sorry for not updating the post – had to work and hope to catch up a bit tomorrow.

    Like

  102. October 12, 2011 7:42 pm

    No the Media is not calling Michael a negligent father, that is Behar. This from a woman who thought saying Blanket under the blanket was a witticism? Plz Behar is not even Media just a projector of cultural prejudices still intent in keeping the lie of her personal crowd alive.

    Like

  103. shelly permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:10 pm

    The problem is Murray was covering his ass in that interview.

    Like

  104. Monica permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:52 pm

    @Lynette Since I don’t allow myself to see anything related to TMZ I don’t know what those transcripts looked like…could you tell me, were the transcripts an exact copy? As in, scanned or exactly an actual copy and not just a transcript someone at TMZ transcribed? But I guess you’re also saying it was put up instantaneously…no time for transcription. I would appreciate clarification since I don’t want to access the site. Thank you. This is awful;(

    Like

  105. Suzy permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:34 pm

    Something more horrible than the photo is this:
    Now the media are calling Michael a negligent father and want to take away from him even what was the dearest and most important to him:

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1110/11/joy.01.html

    Something needs to be done to stop the lies.

    Like

  106. shelly permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:30 pm

    I understand why the prosecution did it but I don’t get why TMZ have them. Levin is really a low life.

    Like

  107. Lynette permalink
    October 12, 2011 3:12 pm

    Actually the prosecution had to show the photo to the jury. It is part of a homicide trial and is to be expected. I think we were fortunate that they chose the one that they did. You see the jury has to see that Michael is dead. I knowit doesn’t make any sense but it gives them a yes. This was a healty man that died and he died at the hands of another. It had to be done.It also shows all of the valiant attempt by the ER Doctors to revive him which is in complete contrast to what Murray did. It is not the prosecutors fault that the media did what they did with it and I woul dlike to know just how TMZ was able to have it on their site almost before the prosecution showed it?
    The media are irresponsible for the most part. It is TMZ in particular that have been leaking things to the world that should not have been leaked. We live in a world where an adult will take money for anything if the price is right. That is what the trial is all about. Murray took money from Michael to tak ecare of him then whenit was not what he wanted in the beginning he gave substandard and careless care to him thinking he had that right.
    Be patient with the prosecution this is a story that has to be told in a certain order and If Michael had died of gunsho twounds we all would have had tosee those too. I for one think he looked amazingly good considering what the defense has been leaking to TMZ all along.
    Maybe I am not making myself clear but let’s see if I can. On Friday when the prosecution started playing the tape of Murray the jury including the alternates, the judge and the defense were all given copies of the transcripts. No extra copies were made. How did TMZ have that on their site within minutes? Because they haavve had one all along or someone on the defense side was giving them one.

    Like

  108. ares permalink
    October 12, 2011 2:12 pm

    I don’t understand what the prosecution is doing,i really don’t. Do they participate in some kind of show? Why did they have to show MJ’s autopsy photo, what’s the purpose of it? I don’t know what to say about all this.Even the worst terrorists have been treated with more respect in their death than MJ is.

    Like

  109. October 12, 2011 1:27 pm

    “The Prosecution had a choice knowing it would be shown, they chose to show it when it had no real value to what needed to be known by the jury.”

    Yes, some of the Prosecution’s actions take you aback. There was absolutely no point in showing that photo – they didn’t even use it for any purpose.

    It is probably the last drop in the cup of humiliation Michael Jackson had to drink. There is no part of his body that wasn’t unclothed and studied by the curious public – from his face to genitalia, and not a single of his deeds which wouldn’t have been ridiculed or laughed at – be it bleaching his skin or urinating. And now they are examining his dead body…

    The humiliation Michael Jackson was subjected to was overwhelming. Now it is complete. Probably the Heavens meant it that way. It was the last drop to make him a Martyr.

    Like

  110. October 12, 2011 12:40 pm

    Erin Jacobs called the Police, some sick prick sent Prince and Paris those autopsy photos! “–Tahlia

    125 times to be exact. They created the account just to do it. Even admitted in the beginning that they were gettting paid to do it and then deleted the one account and started another for a total of 125 tweets with a link to TMZ’s autposy photo. Started almost as soon as it was shown in court during the break in court as a matter of fact. I’m telling you TMZ is dirty in all of this.” — Lynette

    Apalling. But despite the total horror of it there is a grain of good in it too – it is very eye-opening experience for everyone. I hope people are beginning to see the truth.

    Please, if you see revelations like “them being paid for tweeting those things” immediately make their screenshots and send them to this blog. We need to document the outrageous things done by Michael’s detractors. There will be a time to write about it. Probably it will even take us to those who are paying these people.

    Like

  111. October 12, 2011 7:46 am

    “Dr. Rogers went over the diagram of MJ’s body and showed numerous punctures resulting from the resuscitation efforts (shame on all those who scorned Michael for all those punctures!).”

    Too damn bad HLN and the rest did not go over this rather than showing Michael unclothed since they claimed in 2009 & 2010 the punctures were injection marks from taking drugs.

    Like

  112. October 12, 2011 7:39 am

    “I’m telling you TMZ is dirty in all of this.”

    I believe it as well. Which is why I won’t use their site to read the transcripts or anything else. I am posting this on each site I visit today, the subject will be: Irresponsible adults causes bullying of children. They, particularly Paris is the most bullied child in cyberspace.

    I am preparing a letter for the LA County DA’s Office and Anderson Cooper.
    The Prosecution had a choice knowing it would be shown, they chose to show it when it had no real value to what needed to be known by the jury. There were no great crowds asking to see the picture so it cannot be said “the people wanted to know”.

    Murray MAY get 4 yrs, more like 18 months or probation and Michael’s children will be subjected to that picture and more for the rest of their lives. So where is the Justice for Michael when his life was wrapped up in protecting children?

    I keep reading Fans saying the family should close their accounts, don’t let them open an account, keep them from having a social media account.

    How long should this last? When do you suggest it will be okay for them to be a part of the social media world, be able to be part of the world their peers are in?

    Do you believe at maybe 18 all the filth that populates our society will be gone by then and they won’t attack? Shall they miss their time as kids as well? This not the childhood of you and me, this the 2000’s and all it entails. Shall they be isolated from their friends, unable to be a part of the groups which natural to children in this age of technology.

    Like

  113. Jovana permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:37 am

    Thank you again for writing this out. I agree, the way the police conducted interview with Murray was shameless and it breaks my heart for Michael because instead of clasifying him as a victim they did the total opposite. I knew it, Michael was healthier than the average 50 year old, but this makes everything so much harder, there was nothing he could have died off except what Murray gave him. Its obvious he killed him intentionally. :((((( i am just waiting when someone will take a moment and think that this might be the murder case not the involuntary manslaughter.

    Like

  114. Tahlia permalink
    October 12, 2011 5:14 am

    @ Lynette, it makes me sick, I hope the Police do something. People have been telling Prince and Paris not to open any photos sent to them, so I really hope they didn’t see it.

    Like

  115. Lynette permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:44 am

    @tahlia 125 times to be exact. I was tweeting to that person when they doing it to keep them online. They created the account just to do it. Even admitted in the beginning that they were gettting paid to do it and then deleted the one account and started another for a total of 125 tweets with a link to TMZ’s autposy photo. Started almost as soon as it was shown in court during the break in court as a matter of fact. I’m telling you TMZ is dirty in all of this.

    Like

  116. Tahlia permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:17 am

    Erin Jacobs called the Police, some sick prick sent Prince and Paris those autopsy photos!

    Like

  117. Deborah permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:16 am

    Day 10: October 11, 2011:

    Part 1

    Part 2:

    Part 3:

    Part 4:

    Part 5:

    Part 6/Last:

    Like

  118. Lynette permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:07 am

    David clearly in this case Geragos has a different agenda. The one lawyer of Murray’s used to be in his office so I think we know where his loyalties lie.
    JVM just said that some of Murray’s statement to the police is just plain common sense like not calling 911 and his many excuses to not do it. No phone did not know zip code, did not want to neglect.
    Flanagan is now confusing everyone with his questioning of Dr. Rogers. His questions have even contradicted his own questions from before and have created a real mess.
    Flanagan has asked many questions about the Ativan or lorazepam being in MJ’s stomach and that some how indicates he took it orally from the pills on the nighstand or the pills found in his bathroom.I’m not quite sure if even I was able to follow that. But here is the deal.
    The reason that the propofol is the cause of death is because it acts faster than the Ativan even if the Ativan was given IV. Then there is the amount in his stomach just supports that it is of no consequence because it is not circulating in the system yet.Then there is the slit in the top of the Vial of propofol indicating that it was spiked not used to withdraw the propofol into a syringe. That does give more of an indication that he hung that vial and started a drip and left MJ to die.
    There is also the testimony of Detective Smith when he described the division of work and certain entities were told not to investigate anymore Doctors. It seems that the DEA were investigating the other Doctors to determine if MJ was doctor shopping and or if they were giving or dispensing controlled substances. Demerol is one of them. It is very safe to assume that investigation is complete and there were no indications of either doctor shopping or Demerol misuse or distribution.I knew this is where that Demerol rumor was started and I have one question. When did TMZ get that transcipt before the tape was finished in court. I think Harvey has been quoting from this thing from the beginning. Why? Because MJ was worth a lot of news to them especially all of the salacious things that they have written.He is a gossip monger that is all he is.

    Like

  119. lcpledwards permalink
    October 12, 2011 3:33 am

    Can you guys believe this? Jane Velez-Mitchell had Mark Geragos as a guest today, and they were discussing how the cops in this case didn’t know what “milk” meant, and they asked if it was “hot milk” or “cold milk”.

    Geragos said he experienced the same thing with the cops in 2005 with the term “Jesus Juice”, and he sarcastically said that I guess Michael’s made a step down from Jesus Juice to milk!, and he and JVM started laughing!

    How pathetic! What kind of IDIOT lawyer would throw his client under the bus by insinuating that MJ made up that term, when in fact he NEVER EVER used that term in his whole life! MJJ Justice Project wrote a post on the term’s origin: it is medical slang for the concoction used to execute prisoners! Gavin picked it up from cops, and added it to his lies!

    http://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/alcohol-and-jesus-juice/

    By the way: it wasn’t even MJ’s idea to drink alcohol from Coke cans; it was the idea of his flight attendants! (Cynthia Ann Bell and Lauren Wallace.) He didn’t want to be seen drinking alcohol, and he usually drunk it from a plastic thermal container. They both testified that one time they couldn’t find one, so they improvised and used Coke cans, and the rest is history! It was THEIR idea!

    You can see a summary of their testimony at the bottom of this post: http://muzikfactorytwo.blogspot.com/2011/06/roger-friedman-lies-about-michael.html

    Like

  120. October 12, 2011 3:20 am

    @Chris,

    Yesn but it’s all over Internet anyway.

    Like

  121. Chris permalink
    October 12, 2011 2:53 am

    @shelly
    Be glad u not in UK. We will have it on most front pages it is sick, but I’m not surprised either to be honest.

    Road kill is treated with more dignity than MJ ever was.

    Like

  122. October 12, 2011 2:05 am

    Dear David,

    One of the disturbing aspects of the LAPD’s investigation is that they DID NOT immediately treat the area as a crime scene. It is all so overwhelmingly heartbreaking. The picture caught me by surprise as I had hoped they wouldn’t show any photos of him deceased. I’m numb at the moment. I want to stand up and scream that Murray should just admit he killed MJ and be done with it. Seeing how beautiful and bright Prince and Paris looked at the Memorial Concert helps to assuage the pain of this trial. Blanket looked sad but he so radiates MJ. His eyes are just like his father’s–so deep and expressive.

    Like

  123. October 12, 2011 2:00 am

    I can’t believe TMZ posted the autopsy photo.

    Like

  124. October 12, 2011 1:51 am

    Regina, I should probably take away the word murder out of the headline of the post. I can’t be sure and hope that the Prosecution will explain it all – up till now they’ve been doing an excellent job (except showing the photo). All I can say is that Murray’s lies are spilling over the brim and all circumstances look extremely suspicious. However I don’t know whether he did it intentionally.

    I probably said it too soon. But the evidence against Murray is indeed overwhelming.

    They returned to that spike later and the defense suggested that it could be used in order to pour propofol into an IV bag.Dr. Rogers said that it was possible. Techically probably it is, but who would do a thing like that, considering that all this medication should be sterile?

    In my opinion, pouring a sterile drug into a bag and administering it without any precision device while you talk on the phone for an hour and a half and don’t pay attention to your patient is so much negligence that it is equivalent to a murder.

    P.S. The situation with pouring out propofol into an IV bag is purely hypothetical as the bag was clean of any propofol.

    Like

  125. appleh permalink
    October 12, 2011 1:33 am

    Hi, I am not so familiar with the US Law System, but is there a chance to change the accusation into murder 2 or even murder 1 ?

    Like

  126. October 12, 2011 12:56 am

    I think many suspect this is so,Regina.By law there has to be a trial.

    Like

  127. Regina permalink
    October 12, 2011 12:27 am

    Yea, LaToya was right! Somebody PAID Murray to deliberately do this! I haven’t even seen this testimony yet but that stopper detail I just read here makes me think that it is so. I gotta go back to the t.v. now. Poor baby, Michael!!!!!! You were in EXCELLENT health and they just KILLED you!!!!!!!!!!!

    Like

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