“And you did it quite well twice,” replied Marvin Putnam, an attorney for entertainment giant AEG.
Panish denied doing any such thing but added, “If he wants me to give him the finger, I’m happy to do that.”
The trial over whether a division of one of America’s most powerful entertainment conglomerates is liable in the death of a legendary pop star has been filled with testimony about Jackson’s drug use, his physical and mental deterioration and his growing fears as a comeback tour approached.
But the other drama may well be the bruising war of words between the two lead attorneys, one an Ivy League product * who worked in France and the other a Fresno State grad who attended school on a football scholarship.
The two lawyers have snipped, argued, shouted, rolled their eyes, bumped shoulders in the courtroom doorway and once got into such a combative argument in the hallway that the court clerk stepped into the corridor to tell them to cool it; an order they promptly ignored.
For more than four months, the lawyers have taken daily shots at each other as jurors and spectators looked on, often in amusement, a sideshow that can be as riveting as some of the testimony.
The day after the argument in the corridor, L.A. County Superior Court Judge Yvette Palazuelos called the two attorneys into her chambers again and told them they would be sanctioned if their behavior didn’t improve. Putnam called Panish “despicable” and refused to shake his hand. “Where I’m from,” he said, “handshakes mean something.”
With closing arguments in the long-running trial expected to start Tuesday, jurors and court spectators will get a final glimpse of two attorneys who seem to share little except an open disdain for each other.
“I can’t think of a case where there’s been so much animosity,” said Panish, a veteran of more than 100 trials. “When I say good morning to them, they don’t even say good morning back.”
The lawyers for AEG are definitely different – they were smirking even when Mr. Panish was talking about Michael’s children left orphans
The stakes in the wrongful-death case are high, with one witness calculating that the pop star could have earned as much as $1.5 billion had he lived. But neither attorney, nor their law firms, is a foreigner when it comes to staggering sums of money.
AEG Live is represented by O’Melveny & Myers, a 128-year-old firm with 800 attorneys in 16 offices worldwide and a client list that includes Time Warner, Citigroup and Lockheed Martin. Its lawyers have served as U.S. secretary of State, secretary of Transportation and White House counsel.
The Jackson legal team is led by Panish, Shea and Boyle, which has one office and 15 lawyers. The firm has won 20 jury verdicts of $10 million or more, and its $4.9-billion judgment against General Motors, which a judge cut to $1.2 billion, was the largest personal injury verdict ever. The firm has done well enough to have an ownership interest in two airplanes.
Both Panish and Putnam are listed in the top 100 lawyers in California by the Daily Journal, but almost everything about their firms is different, from the attorneys they hire to their clients. Even the way they dress is different.
The O’Melveny & Myers attorneys look as though they were issued uniforms in colors ranging from black to dark gray. Jessica Stebbins Bina has worn black pantsuits every day of the nearly five months of trial. Contrast that with Deborah Chang, of the Jackson team, who has questioned witnesses while wearing a lime green coat, dangling earrings and high heels.
The O’Melveny team, nearly all Ivy Leaguers*, is led by Putnam, a trim, balding man who grew up in Maine, attended Phillips Exeter and Harvard before earning his law degree at Georgetown. His wife, another Harvard grad, is executive director of Robert Redford’s Sundance Institute and was president of production for Miramax Films.
Mr. Panish addresses the jury: “The fate of Michael’s children is in your hands now”
Panish, the son of a lawyer, is heavyset with a full head of graying black hair. He attended Catholic schools, went to Fresno State on a football scholarship and received his law degree from Southwestern Law School.
Panish was recommended to the Jackson family by Thomas A. Mesereau Jr., who defended the pop star when he was tried on child molestation charges in 2005. “I told the family Brian Panish was the best plaintiff’s civil trial lawyer in L.A. and that no one else comes close,” Mesereau said.
Even the way the firms are paid underscores their differences.
Putnam’s firm usually charges by the hour, and its lawyers get paid whether they win or lose. O’Melveny already has earned millions from the Jackson-AEG case.
Attorneys like Panish are more entrepreneurial. Each case is an investment, which is why his firm agrees to take fewer than 1% of those that come its way. “You have to be a risk taker to be a personal injury attorney,” said Jody Armour, a professor at USC’s Gould School of Law. “More of a swashbuckler by personality.”
They usually are paid a portion of their clients’ winnings, as much as 40%, and shell out the money for experts and other costs. If they lose, not only do they not get paid, they could be out a lot of money for their expenses.
“The big-firm lawyers get paid per hour,” Panish said, “and we get paid perhaps.”
Though corporate lawyers like Putnam seldom take cases to trial, the courtroom is a second home to personal injury attorneys such as Panish. “Since we filed this Jackson case in 2010, Brian Panish by himself has tried more cases to verdict than the entire team of O’Melveny lawyers working on this case have tried in their careers,” said Kevin Boyle, Panish’s partner.
During a recent week-long break in the Jackson trial, Panish was part of the legal team that won a $17-million verdict for an 85-year-old man whose leg was amputated below the knee after he was hit by a bus.
By the time a case like Jackson vs. AEG gets to trial, said John Nockleby, director of the Civil Justice Program at Loyola Law School, the two sides have already spent months squabbling over schedules, depositions, and expert witnesses.
“When the stakes are huge, as they are in this case, there are enormous pressures on lawyers to perform, to win these battles,” he said.
Over the course of the trial, Putnam has directed several pointed accusations at Panish, saying he had “defamed a number of people inside the courtroom and outside the courtroom” and was telling reporters lies.
Putnam declined to be interviewed for this story.
On the other side, Boyle said that O’Melveny has gone out of its way to make things difficult, not even offering the usual professional courtesies, such as the scheduling of depositions or making simple agreements. O’Melveny wouldn’t stipulate that Jackson was dead until after the trial had begun.
Asked if O’Melveny looked down on them, Boyle replied, “They certainly act that way. It seems a very coordinated effort of smugness.”
Panish remains angry that Putnam accused his firm of leaking sealed emails to The Times. “I’m not happy about our integrity being challenged.” Panish said.
Panish said he’s gone against O’Melveny before without any problems.
“I don’t have any issue with the law firm,” he said. “Mr. Putnam doesn’t like us. There’s not much we can do about it. Everybody in the world’s not going to like me.”
http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-jackson-lawyers-20130924,0,6677894,full.story
*NOTE: The dictionary explains that “Ivy League” does not stand for the Senior staff of one MJJ forum as I initially thought, but has a special meaning of its own:
Only several hours have passed and the heroic TeamMichaelJackson is already posting the rebuttal by Mr. Panish on the third day of the parties’ closing arguments. Here is the video:
I have partially transcribed the beginning of Mr. Panish’s rebuttal and then Suparna helped me (my big thanks to her):
Before you point the finger you’ve got to look in the mirror at yourself. AEG looks in the mirror at themselves and they say “Everything we did is fine”. And they want you to believe Mr. Gongaware’s and Mr. Phillips’ story in this trial… and want you to disregard all the other evidence.
They did a lot of talk but they never walked the walk. And how do they come here and don’t accept responsibility and put it all on Michael, Mrs. Jackson, Karen Faye, Alif Sankey – everybody but them?
And responsibility, it does not stop at the boardroom. Corporate responsibility is supposed to be carried out throughout our society. And the social order.
When you are in the money making business there are certain responsibilities imposed on you by the law, and when you get involved in a situation like this you have certain responsibilities. They are not imposed by me. they are imposed by the law of the state of California, and you are responsible, socially and legally, to act appropriately.
And what they did is that they didn’t act appropriately.
Let’s talk about some of the things their counsels said yesterday. “All they were trying to do was put on a concert.” They don’t care about Michael Jackson… He admitted it, because it is true. All they are about is putting on a concert deriving the benefit.
And remember – they got all their money back, made a movie and more. They came up fine!
AEG is a money making company and they wanted to make money, they wanted Michael to make money. They didn’t want to help Michael do a comeback. They wanted Michael so that they could make money and that’s why they did it.
Another statement by their counsel: “This case is about choices”. They made their choices. Personal responsibility? But what about corporate responsibility? What about Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware? Where are they? Mt. Trell, their corporate lawyer? Where have they been? Do you really think that they really care about this case? Based on their attitude when they testified and how they testified do you really think that they are worthy of belief in this case?
Are you going to give them a verdict on the basis of what Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware testified – self-serving statements? Are you going to let them get away with this?
They think that they can come down here, big bad AEG and they thought we had an army of lawyers – seven or eight people. They’ve got rows of lawyers, you’ve seen them all. If we’ve got the army, then they’ve got the marines, the navy, the airforce, the coast guards, the national guard – they’ve got them all. We had three of them objecting all at the same time!
Who is trying to bring the whole truth to you? Is it AEG? Or do they think they can convince you that it’s all Michael? Michael is a bad person, he took Demerol in 1993 and he did this in 2002, okay? They want you to not like Michael. Is that what this case is all about? That you don’t like Michael? And that he was criminally charged? And that he didn’t have any money and all that?
What does that have to do with AEG negligently hiring, retaining and supervising Dr. Murray? What does it have to do with it? Nothing.
Next. I told you at the beginning of the case – it is a case about shared responsibility. We are not running from it. Michael paid the ultimate price. He is not here any more. Sure, he took propofol, but remember, remember – every time he took propofol he didn’t die, until one thing happened. An unfit, an incompetent doctor in a conflict of interest situation did it in an inappropriate setting, okay?
So he died from propofol from Dr.Murray – there is no question about that. But he’s paid the ultimate price. His family has admitted that he had some responsibility and that’s for you to determine. But they , they accept no responsibility.
Dr. Murray – we know that he has been held responsible. It’s been determined what he did and he is paying his price, but they want to escape right free, get all their money back, come here and say: “Hey, we know the jury are not going to do that, man. We are AEG Live, we can do this. They are not going to impose liabilities on us. Let’s look at Michael Jackson. Or look at his mom – she wrote a letter to People magazine, she is a terrible person.” That’s what the want you to do.
They say: “Just answer that question “No” and you could go home.” They don’t want you to look at all the evidence, at all of the law after five months. They want you to know “We didn’t hire him”, despite the fact that their CEO said it before there were any lawyers, there were any lawsuits, when he knew that there is no written contract, within days of Michael Jackson’s death – but we are not to believe that and argue to that… So come on.
I mean they think they can hoodwink you. I mean that’s why we are here. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.
AEG Live, they are the ones accepting no responsibility. And let’s talk about corporate responsibility – that is just as important as personal responsibility. Today in our society, everyone says people don’t take responsibility for their acts. How about corporations? Do you think they all are taking responsibility for their acts? Do you think that is happening in today’s society?
The only way the Jacksons family can be on equal footing with AEG Live is in the jury system. We cannot compete with them – their size, all the people they have. The only way is twelve people fairly picked. Think about it – when you came down here, and you got that summons, did you think you would be on the jury to decide this case? No way. Some of you gave up assignments, you’ve missed vacations, you had a change of your whole life. You came down here and said: “Okay, I’m a good citizen, I’m going to do this”. But did you think you signed up for this? Nobody did.
But did any of you try to get off and leave? No. You know why? Because you believe in the system.
Even though it cost personal hardship to each and every one of you, and I appreciate that, but this is the only place that is a level playing field where Michael’s mother and children can be on the same level playing field as AEG. This is it.
AEG lawyer’s objection: It is legally improper to comment on the corporate status of the defendants in the closing argument.
Mt. Panish: Here we go, who is bringing you the truth?
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: See? Like I told you. Who is bringing you the whole truth? You saw it throughout the trial, how three lawyers were objecting at the same time… you know, come on (shaking his head).
Objections… They object, they prepare, with the jury consultant has been here every day from the beginning…. This is a scripted performance by AEG Live that they want to get away with it. That’s what it is. And you heard Mr.George, the last witness. I called him and asked him, and he said “Corporate responsibility and accountability are very important issues in the society today”. And they are. That’s what you are going to assess, personal responsibility, that’s important and what, doesn’t it apply to corporations? Corporations are made up of people.
So what is the truth here, really? The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Remember, we only have to prove this by “more likely than not”, okay?
This is Mr. … the AEG Live lawyer. “All of those emails, trust me, there are a lot of emails I’d love them not be here. Oh, we just gladly turn them over…” They didn’t gladly turn them over – we got to have a court order to get those emails.
They were not voluntarily producing anything in this case. You saw how they defended this case… But they want you to believe what Gongaware and Phillips said and not what they wrote in those emails. “There are tens of thousands of emails.” But where are those emails that say something different? That’s another lawyer-created defense. Part of the script and they hope that you go for it.
I want you – if you could – to write down what I consider the key emails in the case. First is where Dr. Murray is saying that there is an agreement – “per our agreement”. “Trouble at the front” – you guys, probably know it better than I do with its numerous chains. ”We check everyone out”, “Remind him who is paying him”… I didn’t write these emails. These aren’t my arguments! This is written before there is any lawsuit, before Michael is dead, before the lawyers are involved.
[Then the email] that Murray and Phillips are in charge of rehearsals. I didn’t do that – they did that. That “Michael is thin and skeletal”, I didn’t write that – they did.
That “he is a freak” – I love that. Mr. Trell and his other lawyer friend referred to Michael Jackson whom they entered into a multi-million dollar deal with to build up their arena as a “freak”. That’s how they think about him. Did you hear an apology from anyone about that? Did you hear Mr. Trell get up here all the days he’s been here and say “You know what? We really didn’t mean it to say. It’s not a nice thing”. He never said that. And they tried to defend that until the end – “Michael Jackson is a freak”. They should be ashamed of themselves. They are not though.
Make no mistake, AEG is a moneymaking company, and they wanted to make money. “Freak”, whatever – they don’t care. They don’t care about the person, they don’t care about the individual – all they care is how much money this “freak” is going to make for them. That’s what they are all about. [Other emails] “Stall Murray”, “Gross versus net”.
These were all written by AEG and of course, none of them even remember writing this! “Ten thousand emails”. You think that if a guy got an email about the star of the show who they could not do the show without, and they had $35 million in it, they might remember writing the email? “Maybe”? Come on…
What are they trying to do? They are trying to hoodwink you, okay? You are going to go for it? Michael is a bad person, Michael chose the doctor (we’ll get to that), but these are their emails – not mine, not my arguments, I didn’t hear them explain any of those. They don’t want to bring up the “freak”, they don’t want to bring up “we check everyone out” or to explain Kathy Jorrie’s 10 minute Google search [on Murray].
It’s not right, ladies and gentlemen. And it’s not responsible and it’s not right. And it would not be the right thing to believe Gongaware and Phillips and allow them to skate down the street and click their champagne glasses down at AEG Live.
This is an instruction on witnesses – you can believe all or part or none of the witnesses’ testimony. You decide that – not me, not them – you. You saw them, you have common sense. … We haven’t got a film of everything, but we got emails. You decide.
And what’s reason for Ms. Jorrie – why would she have the tendency not to tell the truth? Because it’s her firm, the biggest client, they are getting all this money from AEG Live. Do you think she might want to shade it a little for AEG? “Just a little?” Come on…
And if a witness testified deliberately untruthfully, you can choose not to believe any of it – like Ms. Jorrie: “I never told the police officer that”. Okay, I‘ll bring them in, I did, we’ll see that.
They think it’s funny. Over there they are smirking. That’s funny… That’s not funny! Is that bringing the whole truth? What we have here is just some of the answers that were played at trial. Just some. Of these individuals that they want you to rely upon in this case. And they think it’s funny… “Oh, that’s the Brady bunch. Ha ha ha”. I don’t think that’s funny, and I don’t think you think it (Mr. Panish is playing the tape of different AEG executives saying “I don’t know).
Trell: I don’t know.
Phillips: I don’t know.
Lieweke: I don’t know.
Gongaware: Uh, I don’t remember.
Phillips: I don’t remember.
Lieweke: I don’t remember it.
Gongaware: I don’t remember this email.
Phillips: I don’t remember receiving this email.
Lieweke: I don’t remember this specific email.
I’m not going to go through every one of them. That gives you a little flavor. Those are the people that they want you to base your verdict on. Is that bringing you the whole truth? “Oh, we the AEG, we want the whole truth”. Really? Really? Come on.
Mr. Phillips – what’s his main job? To protect the financial interestsof the company. That’s his job. He’s concerned about it. Why would he deny all this information? Ask yourself – why would somebody in a deposition, under oath and in court deny that they knew about something? Wouldn’t you think that if you are the CEO – and it’s not like some underling wrote the emails – he wrote the emails. It’s not like someone working underneath wrote them – he wrote the emails, Gongaware wrote the emails.
Then he says “Company is people, we make mistakes, no kidding”. They are people, they don’t want to accept any responsibility. Zero responsibility.
Then I asked him, “Did you rely on your attorneys to prepare for the deposition?” “No, I didn’t prepare for it”. Wow, so here you are in a Michael Jackson case, you are not just going to prepare, you are a CEO of a large company? Then I said: “So it wasn’t necessary?” And he says, “No, I didn’t feel – they felt, my lawyers, that it would be better if I went in without doing any preparation with them”.
Is that looking for the whole truth, ladies and gentlemen? Did they stand up here and tell you: “They want the whole truth” and yet they tell the key witnesses – all you got to do is run a search for [emails about] Murray, you’re gonna get them, there are not so many – they are like nine key emails, and they are gonna tell a witness to come to a deposition and don’t be prepared, and is that someone that is trying to give you the whole truth? Come on – you’re not going to fall for that.
And Mr. Gongaware – same thing. “Do you think it was in your best interest, when preparing for your testimony under oath in this case in December, not to review any emails and not remember about them?” Answer: “I relied on my attorneys’ advice – so yes, I think it was in my best interest.“
So it is in the best interest of him and AEG Live to remember nothing! Is that someone that wants to bring to you, ladies and gentlemen, the whole truth? “I don’t remember anything”. You know, come on.
Then deposition that we played was substantive evidence, it’s the same as if you are testifying in court, it has no difference and they know that. They are experienced lawyers and they know that if you testify in one way and then you change it, you are going to look… you’re going to be impeached and you are not going to be credible, but they chose to go that route. Why do you think they would that?
How about this one? I love this one. Mr. Meglen. “So Celine Dion, in your opinion, is a bigger than Michael Jackson?” “In my opinion Celine Dion is right up there with Michael Jackson, yes. And, to me, she is bigger.” Now, that’s not that big deal in this case, right? But this shows you how far they will go to say what’s convenient to them when they think it hurts them.
And how about this? Do you have to remember the truth? Is the truth something like “Let me remember what the truth is. I don’t remember that…”. Is it hard to remember what the truth is? Or is it hard to remember what the story gonna be? On Michael Jackson who is not looking good, who is having problems, people are telling you he is dying, and you’re not going to remember?
You know they say “He who seeks to deceive, what a tangled web they weave… Why do they do that? Why do they do that?
(playing an episode from This is it, where Meglen says “The right thing for Michael to do is play public again and kind of reclaim his throne as the greatest entertainer of all time”)
“The greatest entertainer of all time”, but “Celine Dion is bigger”? That’s what they said in the This is it movie. By they way, they made the movie and they are going to rely on something they made after the fact, stories the executives made up after they testified one way.
How about this one? “Mr. Meglen, Was it better than the demand for any other show you’ve ever seen in your life?” Answer: “It was… no…We’ve sold as many tickets on Voodoo Lounge in one day… in terms of the number of tickets sold in a day, sure, we’ve done those kind of numbers before..” Okay, that would lead you to believe – not a huge deal, right?
Okay, is that a reasonable interpretation? Okay, it was good, but not the best, right? But what does he say before there is any lawsuits, before there are any lawyers and this trial? What does he say in the movie? (playing the video where Phillips says: “This was at a stratospheric level. It was at the level we’d never seen before”).
“Stratospheric level that we’ve never seen before”. They say it, this is in the film before. Now he has got a different tune. Are you going to believe them?
Mr. Phillips – this is what Mr. … the AEG Live lawyer told us: “Randy Phillips is a shmoozer, artist relations. It is because he loves music, he loves the music business, he loves the artist and he loves shows“. That’s how they portrayed him at the beginning, in his opening statement, remember that? That’s what he said. Let’s see what Mr. Phillips said when I asked him that: “I don’t particularly love music. That’s not why I got into it. I love the deal.” I love the money, I love the deal.
Music? Artists? Did he say “I’m going to help artists, I really love music”? Did he say that? No way, because he says – you saw him – he doesn’t care. You saw his attitude when he was testifying… Come on. They want to say I’m making fun of him… You know what? I’m not going to believe anything he said. And he was impeached more than any witness and …
Objection: Objection, your honor. It is improper for counsel to omment on his own personal belief.
Panish: That’s what he was doing all day yesterday (pointing at Putnam).
Judge: Sustained.
Panish: Okay. You shouldn’t believe anything he says.
(AEG lawyers laugh)
That’s funny. They think that’s all funny, right? This is the CEO of their company. That’s funny for your CEO to come up there and not remember anything? That’s funny on somebody that died? Is that funny? I don’t think you think it is, ladies and gentlemen. Who is bringing you the whole truth here?
They say whatever they can whenever it is convenient. Let’s take a look. They want you to see the movie “Oh, watch the movie. The movie is going to prove everything”. Who made the movie? AEG Live. Who produced the movie? AEG Live
Randy Phillips: “Make sure we take out the shots of MJ in the red leather jacket at the soundstage where the mini movies were being filmed. He looks way too skeletal.” Does it say that they knew or should have known something about MJ’s condition? That’s exhibit 638-115. Does that movie accurately portray Michael that they want you to rely on?
Let’s look at the next one. Mr. Ortega. I asked him: “Sir, you were involved in reviewing the footage and I think you call it editing”. Ortega: “Yes”. “Was the intention of the film to show how Michael was performing during the rehearsal?” They want you to see how great he was. But look what he says: “That wasn’t my intention as the film-maker. I mean, of course I wanted Michael to look great always.” So they want you to look at an edited version with dubbed sound to say “He was fine!”. This is something that they made.
Let’s continue to look, here is another one. This is what they don’t want you to see. Mr. Gongaware: “”We’re okay with the band, singers and dancers doing the interviews now. The only thing we ask is that they keep it positive and stress that MJ was active, engaged, and not the emaciated person some want to paint him as being.”
They don’t want the truth. You’ve got to do a positive, controlling people all the time, because that’s what they do. .. I didn’t write these emails. And Ms. Faye, we asked: “Were you involved? What was your understanding what you were asked to come and do?” Faye: “To come and help retouch the footage”. “Did you do that?” Faye:” No, I did not, sir. It was a lie. I didn’t want to lie, sir” “What do you mean?” Faye: “Everyone was lying after he died, sir. That Michael was well, while everyone knew he wasn’t, and I felt retouching to Michael was just part of that lie”.
So they want you to rely on something that they edited, that they tried to make Michael look as good as he could. There wasn’t an intent to show how he was performing, but prove that he was fine. Is that bringing you the whole truth?
How about this? Another thing I want to talk about – This is from Randy-, (Karen Faye.’s email to Randy Phillips) : “ Hi Randy, I don’t know who the video crew was at rehearsals but I saw them shooting Michael at his worst on the day he was shuffling and wrapped in a blanket. I told Kenny to make sure that they didn’t / wouldn’t shoot him like that. Be sure he wasn’t aware they were shooting him and would be careful in the future and it is disconcerting that the footage exists.“
Karen Faye wanted Michael to look good. She wasn’t trying to prepare for a lawsuit . And what does Kenny say what does Randy Phillips say? “We control all the footage and it is locked in a vault at Staples Centre. Did he say no, no we are going to do an accurate depiction, we are going to show him wrapped in blankets when he wasn’t doing good? Did he say that ? No. This is “We control it all and its locked in a vault”. There it is: “We control all it is locked in a vault.” Does that sound like people that are trying to bring you the whole truth? AEG: “We want the whole truth we are not afraid of the truth “.Okay. Actions speak a lot louder.
That footage didn’t make it into the movie. And Michael doesn’t look good in the movie anyway! But they wanna think you are going to buy that.
Then I asked Mr. Philips: “Did Michael ever perform the whole show? Randy Phillips: “No”. Panish: “He never saw all the show’s dance?” Randy Phillips: “No he wouldn’t have. They weren’t ready for that”.
So at the time he died – we could have 2 weeks to go London – he wasn’t even ready to go through the show. But they kept pushing forward and pushing forward.
Then, Mr eh AEG Lawyer said yesterday regarding supervision: “They aren’t supervisors. You heard from Mr. Trell and Ms. Young that independent conractors are uncertified as supervisors and plaintiffs didn’t give you any evidence otherwise.” OK. That’s the defense. “We don’t have to supervise”, right? But they are saying, Mr Trell said that . He says that. OK. They misstate the law continually because here is the law – that’s not true, here is the law.
401 instruction: “A person hiring, supervising, retaining another has a duty to exercise reasonable care. In doing so if a person is negligent, he or she does something that a reasonably careful person would not do in the same situation or fails to do something that a reasonably careful person would do in the same supervise.”
In this case you are to evaluate if AEG acted negligently. Only in connection with plaintiff’s case.. AEG negligently hired, supervised or retained. That’s a legal duty imposed by the law, but they say, “We don’t do it so we don’t have to follow the law because we are AEG. We don’t have any duty to do that”, but that’s not what the law says! They are trying to tell you things that just aren’t true.
Here’s another one. Mr Panish (it is 50 times they say that. My mom has never seen me called miserably she’d call me a lot. But not nicely?) Mr Panish told you yesterday that the figure is $59 million, he said that a couple of times. “That was made up”. He made it up (pointing at Putnam). Ok, I made it up, right? I made it up, that’s what he told you! I wrote it down – I saw you do that, I wanted to jump up! What could I do? Well, let’s see what the evidence says.
Remember that guy, Mr. Ackerman? They paid about nine hundred thousand dollars to [him] who… I said, okay, Mr. Ackerman, let’s get to your figures and I want you to do some calculations. Mr Ackerman: “I do not have my calculator. I can’t do it. I am not ready to do that. Dr. Formuzis could do that, but I don’t know, I can’t do that. I don’t know.”
Well, here’s the evidence. He says, “He made it up”. Now I am big, I can protect myself, but that’s not right for the family – to be making attacks on the lawyers saying they are making things up in court. Come on. Is that bringing you the whole truth? Here it is – exhibit 1960 and there are 3 exhibits of his calculations (pointing to the table of AEG’s calculations of loss of support ONLY! No calculation of loss of earning capacity. AEG’s figure of loss of support is $59,874.000).
(reading from the table): Twelve million eight hundred and seventy four ($12,874,000), fifteen million six hundred and eighteen ($15,618,000), fifteen five seventy two ($15,572,000), fifteen eight ten ($15,810,000). Check it out. Check me out on that ok? He (Marvin Putnam) called me a liar.
AEG themselves calculated $59 mln in loss of support only, but in his closing arguments Putnam claimed that Panish made the figure up
Ms. Stebbins Bina: Objection.
Judge : Is this in evidence?
Panish: Yes!
Judge: Ok, overruled.
Panish: Yes, it is in evidence! “I just made it up” – poof, poof. Exhibit 12960. And there are 3 of them 153, 160, 157-008. Poof! “I just made it up!” Who is bringing you the truth ladies and gentlemen?
I am getting – I have passion.. I am sorry but I am getting .. But it’s not fair to attack someone – a lawyer that’s been an advocate for a client and say they made it up! It just not true! They will say anything when it is convenient! Ok? Go look at those exhibits, you add it up and you see if I made it up or not, okay ? You add it up! I just made it up – poof!
Here it is 59 874. Next… And I say this because I remember all the important things he got wrong yesterday. Mr. (?) numbers from AEG. Another attack and you wrote it down… not everybody. People wrote that down, right? What is the truth? Here it is – right here, AEG live did the projections: $108 a ticket. Mr Erk: “$108 a ticket, 1.6 shows per weeks”.
And here is the testimony, Briggs testimony: “1.6 shows”. Both of them: Attendance – 55,000 for Briggs, 49,000 for Erk. These figures [are from] AEG, ok? I am going to talk about that for a minute here.
They say “Oh, oh, he was never going to do a world tour!” On the one hand they say, but then they wanna say that he is going to do a 10 year world tour. First of all this is not 10 year world tour, but 37 months, OK? So that’s another mistake. But if Michael Jackson had proper care ..
Remember, he was fine when they met him. He did the physical, he was doing fine – till the pressure started creeping in on him and he couldn’t sleep and Dr Murray broke his oath because of the conflict. I have explained that to you. But if he had proper treatment – if Dr Murray got a sleep doctor – proper treatment, he’d been fine because AEG had this all planned out.
They didn’t just want the O2. They were thinking big, the biggest! They wanted to make money. They are a money making machine. Mr Phillips said, “We had a 4 year plan”. There were all those emails. He denied it. I had to bring up the emails to show him, but now when it is convenient [they say]: “He would have died” or “They made it all up. 1.5 billion – they made it all up.” This is their figures…
Mr Gongaware: (5547) “It’s going to be multi city tour”. ParisJackson: “My daddy told me we are going around the world “. So did everybody make that up? Or just me? Or Just Mr. Erk? Or Mr. Phillips ? Or Mr. Gongaware ? Or Mr. Putnam?
Because then I asked Ms. Jorrie, “Did you, Ms. Jorrie tell the LA Police department – you and Mr. Putnam – that London was just the beginning and there was going to be a world tour? Remember that? She said, “Absolutely not” and assures in that lawyers testimony, “I never told that to the officer “. So I brought him in – Detective Smith. And what did he say? Let’s look at this.
“Let’s start with the statement that you wrote down on the official LA Police department form”. Smith: “Okay”. Panish: “Why don’t you read it to us? Just about the world tour?” Smith: “Ms. Jorrie and Mr. Putnam stated that this was only the beginning. MJ was to do a world tour that would last 2 to 3 years”. Panish: ”Did you actually write that down?” Detective Smith: “Yes I did.”
So was Ms. Jorrie and Mr. Putnam not telling the truth to the LA Police Department and official investigation? Or was Ms. Jorrie not telling the truth when she came to court ? The person who was first paid off 7 million dollars? What motive would Detective Smith have to make that up? And why would he have it not only in his official police report, but in his hand written notes which he saved (and usually they don’t save it). He saved his hand written notes and wrote exactly that down.
They (AEG) will tell you what’s convenient when it serves their purposes. And who is really bringing you the whole truth? And then they went on and said, “Did you describe those notes in the report?” Smith: “Yes I did”. Panish: “And tell us exactly what you transcribed”. So at first he wrote on the notes and then he wrote on the police reports – Mr. Putnam and Ms.Jorrie stated the European tour was just the beginning and that Michael Jackson was going to do a world tour that would last 2 to 3 years. So did we just make that up? Did we just make that up? Or was Mr. Putnam and Ms. Jorrie making it up to the police department?
$340 million in economic and non-economic damages and you know one thing – they didn’t dispute in this case. He (Marvin Putnam) didn’t say that was unreasonable. He gave the figures and you know why? Because he knows that in a wrongful death for the evidence in this case – they have attacked everything we said in this case – but they know that is not unreasonable for the relationship. They know it is not unreasonable. They have attacked everything except for two things – that and question 4 which I will get to which they skipped as they have to conceal it. I have to get to it.
Everything else from the beginning of the trial till today (still the objections) they are fighting . But they didn’ fight that because they know that is a fair and just verdict for these three children and for Mrs. Jackson and for what they lost. OK ? I said I invite Mr. Putnam to get up and give a different figure, if he thinks this is unreasonable. Remember that? And certainly he said a lot of – he said my name 50 times and certainly he attacked me on a lot of things, but he didn’t attack on this – 35 million in the past, 50 million in future for the children. 35 Million in the past for Mrs Jackson and similar number in the future, ok? That’s the figures. Because they know that’s reasonable. Not contested now.
The 5 questions. They said that there are only five or four of them, but let me go through them for you quickly. It’s hot up here, phew, let’s take a water break – actually electrolytes. All right.
You know in a society when you go buy something – everybody’s bought some assets – you buy a car, you could buy a house, you could buy some asset. And when you buy something you can’t go back and say, “Hey, there was this problem, there was that problem” and when AEG… They knew everything about Michael Jackson.
They say “We didn’t know”. They knew. They knew what issues he had, they knew what his age was. Mr Gongaware worked with him before. But now when they come into the court and they are supposed to pay full justice they don’t want to pay it. “Hey, hey, wait a minute – this guy was damaged! This guy, he was 50 years old, he couldn’t do this, he took Demerol, he did this”. Now when it is time to make up for justice, they don’t want it, they don’t want to pay it. Why? Why is that?
All right. Lets talk about the questions. You heard a lot about it. First AEG hired doctor Murray. I heard so much yesterday- who paid doctor Murray, who chose doctor Murray, who is doctor Murray’s personal doctor right? All that. Who asked for doctor Murray? Is that question on the verdict form? Who chose doctor Murray? Is that the question you have to answer? Did I miss it? They hired Doctor Murray. Let me tell you how. Was he unfit? Yes. Do they know or should have known that he was unfit and put others at risk of harm? Yes. They skipped forward because they could see that as the substantial factor causing death. Yes. I want to explain why to you. And this one – they did not even contest it. They conceded it, believe it or not, because how could you say that doctor Murray did not harm Michael Jackson? It’s a little tough even though they fight everything else.
Now, in considering question one, whether they hired or didn’t hire, AEG or Michael, or both could have hired doctor Murray. OK? Both. They keep saying, “Michael chose him”, “Michael – it was his doctor”, “Prince gave him some 100 dollar bills”. You know why he (Prince) gave him some $100 dollar bills? Because AEG was stiff and they did not want to pay him and I am going to show you that.
But the question is who hired him ? And it can be Michael, AEG – both and that’s what happened. I believe Michael requested him. And they say “Oh, oh, he never consented, he never consented”. But then they say, “On the other hand he requested Murray, but he never consented! He requested Murray, but he never agreed”. What is it?
Randy Phillips admitted, Tim Woolley admitted it and Mr. Gongaware admitted it. I am going to show you how. Those three facts. The CEO admitted it. There his assistant admitted it and the CEO of Concert West admitted it, ok? But we can’t rely on that. Ok? This question is not there. Whose personal doctor was he, who insisted on it. Who selected and chose Murray? That’s not the question that any how that’s a lawyer’s defense technical and show contracts and all artists.. that is not the question, OK ? He was Michael’s personal doctor. Did Michael insist that they should hire Murray? Yeah. Ok? Great. Did he choose or select? Yeah. But they didn’t have to hire him because they could have said: “No we are nor not going to hire him.” But none of those questions are on the verdict form. You don’t have to answer those questions. You have to answer, “Did AEG and Michael hire doctor Murray?”
(Randy Phillip’s video starts): “We just felt that this is his personal doctor. He wants him 24/7. And the guy is willing to leave his practice for a very large sum of money, so we hired him”. (Video stops).
Randy Phillips of AEG about Murray: “So we hired him”
Can we not rely on the CEO saying something? Mr. Putnam says “Yeah, believe that”, OK? I mean here we are hours and days on that issue. They are trying to tell you that the sky is not blue. They are trying to sell ice to people at Alaska! Come on.
I mean if you are going to fall for that, you know I think you are going to disregard all the evidence. How can he say… He never came and said that we didn’t hire him either. You know that? He never said “Oh we never hired Murray”. I was mistaken because they have no prompt coming in – that contract was mistaken, that was mistaken, that was mistaken. He never said, “I was mistaken when I gave a world wide interview within days of Michael’s death”, he never said that. Mr. Trell never came in and said that.
They didn’t show you the whole clause of this contract. He can end the contract, it is pretty simple, we don’t need to go any further, but just that everybody here believes… all the people here think that I responded . This is what he said, “Oh, Michael is responsible”. This is in the MJ contract Jan 28th: “In the event that shall Artisco be responsible for any claims of writing out or related to the negligence of willful conduct of any promoter-related indemnities, promoter breach of this.”
Now why would Mr. Gongaware on June 14th on this exhibit tell them to remind Dr Murray who he is working for and who is paying him and the standard that is expected of him if they hadn’t hired him. Do you go around, does your boss go around and tell your neighbor “Hey, remember what is expected of you. Hey, we are paying your salary “. Do they do that? Does somebody? Do you go about telling people who don’t work with you what to do, other than your kids and your spouse? But do you tell them who is paying, remember who is responsible? If you did not hire somebody?
Conrad Murray thought that he was hired because on June 28th after receiving those emails…he did not show you this: “ My contract is taking a little more time.“ The written contract. Remember in the entertainment business they are doing all these contracts. Ortega, Payne, Faye – all these people. If they had to wait till everyone had a written contract, then nothing would ever get done.
So they make an agreement orally and then they put it in writing, but that does not mean you did not hire someone or you didn‘t make an agreement. They want to get all these technical… Michael didn’t sign where he had to sign – “Oh, Michael didn’t do this, Michael insisted on that.” I mean, come on! He doesn’t have to sign for the oral or apply for that contract. So Dr. Murray says “I performed and continue to fulfill my services to the client in good faith, therefore I am asking you to deposit my fee for May and the rest falls upon you in good faith as per our agreement.” “Per our agreement“. Agreement, contract. That’s what the instruction says, that’s what Murray says – right there exhibit 232, May 28th. And not only does he say that he goes on to say the customary date which they had agreed to prior which we will see, the 15th of each month. ”By today’s date we are 13 days beyond receipt of my monthly fee. Deposit my fee in May as per our agreement.”
Did Mr. Woolley write back: “We have got no agreement, we are not paying you Murray, you are not working for us, we didn’t hire you Murray”? Mr. Gongaware, did he write and say: “What is expected of you Murray we are not paying you, Murray, but not really”. No. They knew there was an agreement. They hired Murray. With or without Michael. It is clear. The intent of the parties. There is an agreement and they owed the money, but then they wanted to stall Murray and you saw those emails more stalling games by AEG.
Now this is more of the contract which I have right here. This is exhibit 160. If there is a written agreement it supercedes any prior agreements or understanding, oral or written. Paragraph 18. So yeah, when there is a written contract you can get paid. But it doesn’t mean you did not hire someone and this shows that everyone knew that there were written oh (Panish’s error which he realised now) Oral contract that was later going to be made to this. And this agreement in fact that the artist’s condition – upon approval or consent of the artist. The written contract but Michael had already said hire him and that’s what they kept saying “Michael said to hire him, Michael said to hire him”. Michael didn’t consent to the oracle contract which he doesn’t have to. He (Michael) told him to do it and they did it. And Gongaware wrote “Done deal“, May 6th. And Murray is trying to get paid for his work of May 28th. He has worked for 28 days and of course they do not want to pay. Surprise, surprise, haan! Here we are again – they don’t want to pay.
Were there are other provisions in this contract where they show you the one with the line crossed out which is not the one signed by Murray – “perform services reasonably requested by the producer”. If you do not hire someone do they perform services for you?
Paragraph 7.2; “If it is cancelled or postponed anytime for any reason, Murray is out.‘ But then Mr Putnam told you yesterday, Murray didn’t even know that till June 16th when Kathy Jorrie sent him the first draft of the contract. Remember that? He didn’t even know that, OK? Not true, OK?
Murray needs 10 days to wind down his practice consented to the agreement exhibit no. 175 and he was done in 10 days and they said “Oh, he was living in California, living in California.. “ Sure that wasn’t right then how can he wind down his practice? He didn’t have a practice in California. Then it was to be full time and he was full time.
Now question number one – remember AEG does not have to hire Murray alone. It can be Michael and AEG. I believe that the other supports answered yes to the question one. We spend way too much time on it when the CEO of the company admits something that we have to still debate it. And that’s kind of the way the whole case has been. Whatever they admit they deny, deny, deny and hope somebody will go for it, That’s what it is. That’s what they are doing. Alright. And again as it told you, the verdict form will say, “Who chose, selected, recommended, paid Murray”. That was not the question, so please focus on the question. They hired him. Alright.
Now question two. Was Murray unfit or incompetent for the job he was hired to do? Why was he unfit and I wrote down the 3 what I think are the key points here. For question number two – number 1: the point is its not when they hired him only, it’s the entire time. OK? They want to focus on when they hired him, but it is the entire time, and then they want to focus on Michael. They say we want to focus on Michael Jackson and not Murray but if MJ is Murray’s patient and how MJ is doing, is not well, does it not raise a red flag about the physician who is supposed to be there 24/7? Ok, think about it. So it is any time, not the just the time they hired him. They do not have to negligently hire Murray. All they got to do is just to hire him.
Then he needed sleep and pain and drug dependency treatment or oversight or management – whatever you want to call it. And then as early as May they created that conflict of interest and really when you boil it all down, the conflict of interest is what caused it all. Because of Murray’s financial condition they could pull the plug on Murray. They brought in Murray because they knew they needed Murray. And they brought Murray in to keep Michael going, and now they want to act like nothing happened. The train is going down the road, they are seeing these signs and what do they do? They stop the train to see what is going on? They put more coal in to keep moving straight ahead. OK? Right here.
Number 2. Incompetent, conflict, they were pressuring Murray and they pushed back. Remember when Kenny Ortega and Bugzee – these people are saying “Hey we have got all these problem , we got all these problems “, do they go find out what is wrong with MJ? Do they go do that? No, they never found out what is wrong because they did not want to know. They did not want to know. They didn’t do anything to look into it. Would a reasonably careful person that’s retaining and supervising a doctor – the patient of the doctor is doing terrible – would they ask the doctor what is wrong with the patient? May be? What do you think?
But they should have never been even involved! Why are they getting involved in MJ’s health care? Why are they drafting a written contract that MJ never saw or asked for? Because they want to control it all. They want control. Why would they do that? No one in the history has ever done that. Why would they do that? Think about it. Why would they draft a written contract for MJ‘s alleged doctor that he chose and selected? Why? Because they wanted to be able to control doctor Murray and get whatever they wanted and get Michael because: number 1) They had no insurance. If Michael didn’t make it they could be out $35 million. Remember they could not get sickness insurance. Cancellation insurance is only 17.5 million and they were double that. And when you are in a money making business you are not in a money losing business. They were protecting as Mr Phillips says they do, the financial interests of the corporation. That’s why they wanted control of doctor Murray. And that’s why they wanted a written contract that raised the conflict.
Now number one. Remember the March press conference. Mr Philips says that Michael is “an emotionally paralyzed mess riddled with self loathing”; he got to slap him and put him in the shower. He is worried. And he says prescription… he is talking about the drugs or usage of insomnia and pain management, but instead there is a cardiologist to treat heart problems and ailments like the flu and the cold which he doesn’t have. So why would they do that? He was incompetent – there was no question. Now this is… Remember I said Mr AEG yesterday told you that doctor Murray never knew that the contract could be cancelled anytime before June 14th, remember that? That doctor Murray never knew !
Well, on May 8th exhibit 177 it states (Judge: Mr Panish, 5 minutes before the break. Panish: Thank you your honour ) AEG contract will not cover more than 1 month in lieu of notice if there is a curtailment or cessation of the tour. So how could they come here and tell you that he didn’t know this till June 14th when he is getting an email on May 8th? How can they say that? Who is bringing you the truth? Is that the whole truth? Take a look at that exhibit 177. All the terms and fees Murray wants to get paid “per our agreement”, Gongaware was trying to tell him what to do but “they didn’t hire him and he is no agreement”.
Next question. May be this is a good time your honour and this is a long one.
Judge: Come back at 11:15.
Judge: Katherine Jackson Vs AEG Live BC445597. One thing Mr Panish. We will go into the noon hour in a little bit so you can finish and when you come back we will do the concluding instructions. So you take into the noon hour to finish. OK.
Panish: “I will need another hour…Appreciate your attention.”
….
[these were our preliminary notes only. TeamMichaelJackson has now obtained the full transcript of Mr. Panish’s rebuttal, so please scroll down to the bottom to see the full embedded version]
UPDATED September 27, 2013
The ABC7 Court News reports:
- Here’s our story on the jurors, who they are, what they do. http://abc7.la/1awHrYi
- We’ll be here to bring you all the details of verdict watch. Other than the 2 notes sent earlier [they asked for black and red pens, copies of independent contractor agreement, a video player and This is it documentary], nothing else requested.
- One of the jurors requested next Monday off. So deliberation resumes on Tuesday at 9:30 am PT.
- Jury has gone home for the day. NO VERDICT yet. They deliberated for 4 hours and a half today. Total of 6 and a half hours so far.
The story on the jurors ABC7 referred to is here:
Michael Jackson trial: More about the jurors
Friday, September 27, 2013
DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES (KABC) — The jury in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial was behind closed doors on Friday conducting its first full day of deliberations.
Jurors have 80 days of testimony to debate. Through court documents, they have disclosed their top priorities. They elected juror No. 6 as the foreperson, a married high school physical education teacher who lives in downtown Los Angeles.
The jurors have requested two pieces of evidence: Dr. Conrad Murray’s independent contractor agreement and a DVD copy of the “This Is It” documentary, which portrayed Jackson during the time his family’s attorneys say his health was deteriorating.
“They’re going to be looking to see what the defense has said for them to look for, is that Michael Jackson was performing very well just before his death,” said legal analyst Barry Edwards.
Jackson attorney Brian Panish urged jurors in closing arguments to dismiss the movie because it was AEG that helped produce it, showing Jackson in the best light. As for Murray’s contract, it would be the centerpiece of any argument dealing with the first question on the verdict form: Did AEG Live hire Dr. Conrad Murray?
About the foreperson, some Jackson fans have had questions about him. Two wrote a letter of complaint to the judge, which was later submitted into evidence. The fans asserted that the juror had noticeable eye contact with a female AEG lawyer. Fans interpreted it as flirting, but the judge did not.
“The judge did nothing with regards to the complaint and I don’t believe there is much importance that can be placed on that by a third party against this juror,” said Edwards.
The jurors who will decide this case are:
– Juror No. 1: A white female banker who lives in downtown Los Angeles
– Juror No. 2: A female triage nurse
– Juror No. 3: A t-shirt print businessman from West Los Angeles
– Juror No. 4: A Hispanic female customer service representative for AT&T from Whittier
– Juror No. 5: A female software engineer for JPL from Highland Park
– Juror No. 6: A white male high school physical education teacher
– Juror No. 7: A black female UCLA clinical research coordinator from Westchester
– Juror No. 8: An Asian male who works for Baxter Health Care
– Juror No. 9: A retired civil engineer
– Juror No. 10: A black male retired metal worker
– Juror No. 11: A white female retired UCLA cancer researcher
– Juror No. 12: A male DWP employee from East Los Angeles
Edwards says it’s an educated and attentive group.
“Certainly they were taking a lot of notes and they were listening to the testimony quite clearly, and I think that’s important to both sides,” said Edwards
The jury has Monday off. They will resume deliberations on Tuesday.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=9265378
Vindicating Michael 
To me the question re Murray´s competence and fitness and leaving out ethics was a tricky trap.
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I have been absent due to some medical problems and have therefor not followed VMJ very closely. Also being somewhat ignorant of the jury deliberation system I want to ask if it is common to present the jury with a fairly long list of specific questions as was done in the AEG trial.? And should the questions be answered in the order given?
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How many people have dirty minds around Michael !
vindicatemj permalink*
April 18, 2012 9:28 pm
“Michael, You were the only truth like a dew pure…
When I think of your suffering at that moment,
when I feel the pain of your soul in those long days,
my heart breaks.
My soul trembles by a world without truth…” – Yoshimi
Yoshimi, as time goes by Michael indeed gets increasingly associated with the word truth, while all the games played around him with the word lies. The lies suffocating Michael baffled him immensely as he often repeated in his songs “I don’t understand it”.
It is awful that only a handful of people stood by the truth about Michael when he was alive and slandered all over (Tom Mesereau, and Michael’s little friends and their parents like the Culkins, Barnes and Robsons) while the rest of the world simply could not believe that all of them could be lying – the well-known Prosecutor, seasoned investigators, witnesses like that angel Star Arvzio who was inspired by his role of a brother of a “victim” and used the courtroom for showing his acting skills.
We simply could not imagine that all the media could be lying too and that hordes of maids and bodyguards would be just trying to enrich themselves at the expense of bringing Michael down. Everyone lied – MJ’s PR man Bob Jones, queer personalities like Victor Gutierrez, the good old brothers Evan and Ray Chandler, “knowledgeable” Diane Dimond, Nancy Grace, Martin Bashir and the rest of the gang. Larry Feldman lied too – he admitted to Larry King that he thought Janet Arvizo was after money only, but nevertheless took their case directly to Tom Sneddon as if it were real molestation. Apparently it was also his office which released those documents about Jordan Chandler’s settlement on the net in 2003….
Now it is a sort of a miracle that despite the many-years effort on the part of Lies we are finally beginning to see the process of Truth emerging. The division between the truth and lies is becoming so vivid, so clear, so dramatic that the whole world seems to be falling into two parts – those who value the truth (whatever it is) and a huge mass of those who are totally indifferent to it and are happy with their ignorance, deceit and illusions as this way they feel more comfortable.
This reminds me of the Matrix movie where only a handful of people woke up to reality with all the rest of the people living in illusion but eventually following suit (I hope the finale of Michael’s saga will be the same).
It is extremely sad that the process of the differentiation between lies and truth started on a mass scale only after Michael’s death, but the quality of the people who are now siding with the Truth is impressive. Shelly is right – we need to add to the list of honorable people standing up by Michael (Tom Mesereau and Susan Yu, David Walgren and Deborah Brazil, Dr. Steven Shafer and Dr. Alon Steinberg, Dr. Patrick Treacy and David Nordahl, Aphrodite Jones and Larry Nimmer) journalists like Linda Deutsch and Charles Thomson and truth seekers like Geraldine Hughes and William Wagener.
Compare them with the Topix scum of the earth, for example, and you will see all the the difference in the world between the two of them.
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Wasn´t there negative stories about Michael creeping up like a crop of mushrooms,And all at once (in a comment by Helena).Can´t find that on the blog now.Do not underestimate the underhanded means of corporations.
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Question to anyone who knows, did Murray have a history of medical negligence or had to be disciplined at all? It was my understanding that he was not squeaky clean prior to.
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I read your comments about a post on MJJC by a person identifying themselves as Juror #27. Either there are people who visit this site desperate to validate the fulsome and increasing disrespect the on that site towards Michael, his mother and children or Juror #27 was indeed there. I find it unusual that she did not come to the Team KJ page or any other site which is known for supporting civil conduct towards Mrs. Jackson and asked for admittance as she had to do on MJJC in order to post.
I’ve taken this to Twitter to see if any other of the MJ Community has seen a similar posts on either a Pro or Con AEG site by this person.
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O´Melveny &Myers have their strategy of sudden U-turns,coming from the left and such. It does not promote justice but confusion. The trial was an aberration. The only logic were Judge Mathis words.Even the result is strange; foes become friends and gets ovations,. jailed felon is delighted thinking himself now innocent. happy.,his lawyer says he will win in
the public arena… Ethics comes and goes depending on circumstances.
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My take on a juror venting her opinion on an MJ site.
In general every juror on a high profile case will want his/her 15 minutes of fame. which is understandable. I wouldn’t be surprised if all of the so many jurors find a medium to present their opinion or if there will be so many books coming out, because why not seize the opportunity since this is MJ.. So far nothing different from the jurors on the Arvizo case , 2 of whom later said that they think Michael was guilty, only they couldn’t prove it. That said. it may not be against the law in the US, appropriate and ethical it is not, not for the timing and not for the place. But how could the judge know that this juror would have an ethical issue, it was not foreseeable. Here is why I think it is inappropriate .
I applaud Michaels mom for giving this juror the opportunity to get to know Michael and change her mind about him. Hopefully that also goes for the allegations that more than the druggie that AEG tried to make of him, have tarnished his name and is still the biggest factor of anti MJ sentiments and sadly , again a case coming. ( Im surprised Kj is not yet blamed for WRs claims.)
If its Michaels praises she wanted to sing, she should do it in an environment where Michael could benefit from it , not on a site that is already pro Michael, that is like preaching to the choir.
The preaching to the choir also goes for the explanation of the verdict , which is swallowed without one critical note, and the one critical note is effectively accused of attacking a ‘member’.
Not for the fact that a right verdict was reached but for their opinion that KJ does not deserve to win the case ergo granted damages.
So I have to wonder why she specifically choose that site on which a majority have openly , even bragged about it, sided with the defense, on the pretext of objectivity.
Some were so levelheaded they wanted to rob KJ of her constitutional rights . The right to sue a concert promoter who was directly involved in hiring and supervising the murderer of her son, calling it an extortion attempt.
They were so levelheaded, that what even a layman could see, that AEG hired Murray , they kept defending untill the end . As did AEG, who instead of proving they didnt hire him, kept calling one doctor after another to forward the druggie image.
My questions to the juror would be:
Why did she choose to go on an MJ site and why this particular site( re extortion )
does she also think the case was an extortion attempt( considering her snide remark about money) and if so :
why did she participate as a juror if she had a problem with the case
why didn’t she tell the judge so
does she think with that state of mind she did justice to Michaels mother and children
That’s all , the 15 minutes are over. 🙂
PS : One positive thing , I have to thank the juror for telling, because she said something that if true will be very helpful to the plaintiff for an appeal.
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Mr. Ortega is a good, honest man. Mr. Ortega did not know about propofol, the insomnia. Michael was bothered by the media, Sneddon, accusers. I have great sorrow for them. They destroyed Michael. Mr. Ortega could not do more. That’s my opinion.
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One thing bothers me is about Ortega called honest& nice person according to the jurors. I think he deceived them, KJ , MJ & all of us.
If KO really cared about MJ, he should take him to hospital on June 19th without any hesitation, even could ask AEG to extend the tour as producer because MJ was not ready in fact, the whole thing was not ready. He actually understand & seen MJ’s illness closely than anyone else. In my opinion, morally he didn’t do the right thing as a friend. How come a person in right mind, a friend did ignore MJ’s situation? Pls forgive me for my frustration, because I always think if someone can help MJ at that time, believe was only KO. He had a moral obligation as a friend, as long time business partner and as a producer of the show. Unfortunately, he was also trapped with greed or fear of losing his job over his dying friends. Now here he is misleading the jurors. He will regret the rest of his life, because our conscious is the thing we can’t hide from
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Thanks Sina, that would be great! That sounds like a great idea. I feel that the site should be penalised and reported against for their pretence of being MJ supporters.
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Suparna , I believe you and Helena because everyone with a different view is ridiculed and slaugtered there .Ihey preach love but practice hate.
Its interesting that they claim to have thousands of fans, yet the only ones who post are about a dozen who keep repeating the same hateful mantra day in day out.
I used to visit the site because there were some fans there who knew alot about Michaels music, but I dont see any of them posting anymore and the rest is mostly copy pasted articles from the media and tabloids.
The average blogger has more interesting articles than them.
I will ask the MJE executors if a site that has Michaels name on it and promotes hate especially against his mother is worthy to bear his name. Since they are here to protect Michaels name and image and represent Katherine Jackson and the children, why is it allowed that their client is being trashed on a forum that has her sons name that she gave him.
Michael deserves better than that.
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Here is a video from Judge Mathis that is taking the Community by storm. It is his analysis of the verdict. Compare it to Nancy Grace a former district attorney and part of the 2005 trial Media lynch mob. “The cases on Judge Mathis are classified as tort law, civil disputes.”
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Hi Sina,
I just registered on the MJJ community so that I could post something in response to what the juror had to say- but I am not being allowed to. Helena was so right- when she pointed out how the comments here are pro AEG. This webpage looks like a tool for MJ haters, rather than his true supporters. All those posts are against Mrs Jackson and even and are pro verdict. I will give them a piece of my mind if I am able to do so at all. I think this site should be reported as dodgy to the other MJ fans.
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Right, Sina, this is a very suspicious thing, and if true not appropriate.
Here is what this alleged juror had to say:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/130590-Verdict-Reached-AEG-NOT-Liable-Discussion-Katherine-Jackson-vs-AEG/page66?p=3914073&viewfull=1#post3914073
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And who says this so called juror is not an AEG PR plant. Are nt jurors restricted to discuss about the ins and outs of a case and shouldnt they keep it confidential?.
So this juror was googling and looking into Mj forums while he was on duty or he/she so accidentally found the forum .Its interesting to find out when the juror contacted the forum .Someone should ask the court if its appropriate for a juror to contact a forum that is so explicitally biased in their approach to the case or to contact a forum at all.
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“Juror #27 contacted MJJC Forum and explained why the jury voted the verdict they did in the KJ vs. AEG trial’
Susan this is wrong on every level and too transparant
Because someone was randomly selected to have a say in a verdict about a man he knew nothing of and declares he became a fan, makes him an authority to be invited on a fan forum.
If they really want to make a difference they should ask the one juror who disagreed, that would be news. But ofcourse they wouldnt. I find the whole story abject.
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This was a message on FB:
“Juror #27 contacted MJJC Forum and explained why the jury voted the verdict they did in the KJ vs. AEG trial. Fans at MJJC have requested the forum to try and set up a Q&A with the jury. Juror 27 said he learned what a good father and kind person Michael was. He is now a fan and so is the foremen.”
I have a big problem with this.
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Thanks Sina ! I really feel like making one now- I guess I have to start thinking about it more seriously 🙂
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‘If my film making dreams ever come true, then I will try my best to make one’
This is your chance to make it come true. 🙂
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You are very welcome Sina. I too feel that a proper documentary or film should be using all the materials that have been gathered. That is the best way of creating awareness. If my film making dreams ever come true, then I will try my best to make one. But for now, someone should make an attempt at it.
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‘The jury misunderstood the whole idea of this trial. At the center was ETHICS ,something every M.D. swears to’-Kaarin
Though I agree that the overall issue is ethics , which goes for AEG, Murray and all the people who lied about Michaels condition to protect AEG or their own behind, there is much more to it.
It is about incompetence , from the way Michaels and Murrays contracts were drafted to their total incompetence to produce an MJ show, it is about integrity , in the way they were talking about and treating their business partner, it’s about fraud and greed , in the way they lured him into a contract that was very unfavorable for Michael and very profitable for them , its about blackmail and psychological pressure on a man who was contractually adn financially trapped as well as the doctor who also had no way out. And it is about corporate accountability and failure to take responsibility for your actions , so its also about breaking the law.
And overall there was basically a lack of ethics, which you don’t need a Hippocratic oath for. All of which led to a toxic situation and a disaster in waiting.
Since AEGs involvement was at the root of Michaels death and they now even teamed up with Michaels murderer through his lawyer, I find it unacceptable that they will walk free and go on as if nothing happened. I hope that if it stands a chance, there will be an appeal.
Imagine if this was done to another artist, like Madonna or Barbara Streisand. Why is there not more outrage? Because even fans blame him for his own death.
I want AEG to be held accountable for what they did and if they cannot be beaten in the court of law, then in the public arena. I would like a documentary about what happened from day one that Tohme and Colony Capital entered Michaels life .
But first I think we should safe all the court documents, footage from depositions, testimonies, interviews in the media and Helena’s and other bloggers posts and make a few back up archives.
All of it will be taken down soon because AEG will want to whitewash its name.
I call upon people like Luna Jo and Team Michael who must have a lot of footage to safe it and I would like to help to make backups.
Because if this verdict is all there is to say about Michaels death, it will be a total deception and a great injustice to him. I hope we can make a coordinated effort to do this .
@Suparna, thank you for the reminder. I have Latoya’s book and will read it again.
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Hi Helena,
I have posted my comments on the article. Yes, there should be an appeal against this ludicrous verdict. I am reading La Toya Jackson’s book ‘Starting Over’ where she makes some valid and interesting observations about AEG’s behaviour. You may have discussed the already or may be aware of them. But just thought of sharing them as they only accentuate the evil nature of this corporate giant. She says that while preparations of Michael’s memorial service was on , AEG was discussing with the other Jackson brothers of taking over Michael’s shows at the O2 arena. La Toya felt that AEG was doing this to distract the family from the actual tragedy that had unfolded. So that the family did not focus on the details of his death. She said that she was surprised that AEG did not express concern over MJ’s death- this we all know already. She says that AEG knew that they would make more money with Michael dead than alive- again something which has been discussed on this blog.
La Toya mentions of the $85 million that was generated by way of ticket sales for the the fifty shows which sold out in four hours. She questioned as to why AEG filmed MJ’s rehearsals when they did not have an agreement in place with him to make a concert movie. She has also raised the question as to who actually owned the rehearsal footage- AEG or Michael himself. La Toya points out that much of the film actually belonged to Michael’s personal cameraman yet no one close to him was given the right to produce or release the film. She says in case of Michael owning any of it, AEG did not have the right to sell any of it and that MJ’s kids should have got a share of the sales proceeds. She points out how heartless it was of AEG to make a film out of that immediately after Michael’s passing- all for profit. She also says that she found it odd that AEG used Sony as distributors for the “This Is It’ film when they are the owners of the Regal Entertainment Group that includes sixty-seven hundred movie screens, making it the largest motion picture exhibitor in the U.S. She points out that AEG would have made more money by distributing the film through their own theatre chains rather than have Sony do it for them. She says that they brought Sony into the picture as their was a larger deal, involving Michael’s catalogues.
La Toya also points out that all his life, Michael had performed and rehearsed without any breaks. But in the This Is It film, Michael is seen to be wearing multiple costumes for the same song- which makes the editing apparent and proves that AEG knew that Michael was not well and could not perform for long at one stretch. She says “ Michale was sick and they had to know it!’
La Toya remarks that Michael should have been the producer of the ‘This Is It’ movie but that his name was listed only in the credits of choreography. She says that even Michael’s music supervisor and choreographer got producer credits on the film for reasons unknown. She says that the likes of John Blanca, John McClain and Frank DiLeo are listed as producers on the film. She said that Michael had told her that he never wanted to work with Branca and DiLeo again and had fired them earlier on. ( We know about this already). She says that the Estate has made a lot more money since Michael’s death than they are revealing.
La Toya says that she had asked the investigator, after Michael’s passing, if they had any of the surveillance tapes of Michael’s property- to see who all exited and entered the property immediately before and after his death- she was told that she would be given that information once the tapes were looked at. She says that the surveillance video was unaccounted for except for the four minutes of Michael entering the gates around 12:30 A.M . She says that she saw Frank Dileo say in an interview that he and randy Phillips had arrived at MJ’s house immediately after his demise, as they were called by Murray.
She also says that she was advised by people who were at the Staples Centre, that as soon as Michael passed, the gates to the centre were locked and that AEG’s people took everyone’s cameras away, removing the films and footage from camera men’s cameras as they had already decided that they would be making a film out of that footage and ‘if anyone had any footage of what happened at that meeting the night before, they wanted it’. Helena I am not very sure of what La Toya refers to here. But these were some interesting points I came across in the book which prove again AEG’s vile nature.
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Was leaving Etical out of question nr 2 deliberate or an oversight. In both cases this was wrong. He was unfit and incompetent anf unethical.All of the bove.See comments re this below.
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An AEG attorney.
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The jury misunderstood the whole idea of this trial. At the center was ETHICS ,something every M.D. swears to.And that for some peculiar reason was not necessary for Murray.And he was not shy in asking for money5. mil, then 150k/month and housing + travel for himself and his insrtument.
And AEG dismisses all that haggle over the equipment Murray needed.And forgot or dismissed a lot more..Maybe the foreman had come upon this to him brilliant idea and thats the reason for brazen flirt with an AEG juror.
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Request from Helena: Here is a video from TMZ which would not open for me. I hope you are able to see it and tell me what Debbie Rowe says there:
Debbie Rowe — Michael Jackson Wrongful Death Verdict Screwed Katherine Jackson
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_pgz82an1/#ixzz2ghVPpu7C
Helena,
I went to TMZ and I could not open either. It looks like TMZ may have taken it off. I searched YouTube also. I could not find it. (Debbie is known to like her privacy…)
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“Of this I am not sure. I had the impression that they were covering the cost on all the experts summoned in this case. Mr. Panish was not charging Mrs. Jackson the fee but the many thousands of dollars on costs of the experts and fees on filing various motions could come only from the Estate.
Who else? Katherine does not have this money. Moreover she once even said that the money for the lawsuit was coming from the Estate.” – Vindicatemj (Helena)
The Executors made it very clear which side they were on, when they released a statement absolving AEG of any responsibility in Michael’s death – undermining Prince, Paris, Blanket & Mrs Jackson in the process.
As far as money for the lawsuit, she’s a beneficiary of Michael’s Estate,. There’s no reason a tall to believe that they would willingly aid her in anyway in her fight against AEG. There’s also Janet Jackson , who despite tabloid reports, isn’t hurting for money.
Also, Joseph Jackson was able to fund his own legal actions against Murray & AEG, and we know he doesn’t have much.
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If anybody said ‘No,’ well, they were out of the mix and he’d find somebody else.” Where did he get that information from? How could he even conclude that?
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Juror’s sounded like the press and AEG despite the fact they saw plenty of evidence that Michael was not addicted to drugs in the way AEG alleged. I do feel on the plaintiffs side throughout the trial that the medical equipment issue should have been more prominent and less speculation about drugs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24377371
What it boils down to is that the jurors were idiots.
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These are some quotes from the jurors. Enough said.
“Michael Jackson was pretty used to getting his own way,” White said. “He was a big star. He had all these doctors who wanted to be his doctor and he could pretty much get what he wanted. If anybody said ‘No,’ well, they were out of the mix and he’d find somebody else.”
Barden suggested JURORS WERE BOXED IN BY THE WORDING OF THE SECOND QUESTION on their verdict form: “Was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?”
Jurors INTERPRETED“the work” to be as a “general practitioner” who was expected to treat Jackson and his children FOR ROUTINE ILLNESSES — not to infuse him with profopol to put him to sleep every night, Barden said.
Jurors apparently did not see medical ethics as an essential element for a fit and competent physician.
HLN’s Nancy Grace asked Barden if he believed Murray was unethical. “You betcha!” he answered. “BECAUSE HE WENT WAY BEYOND WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO DO.”
The jury foreman bristled at the suggestion that Murray was vindicated by his verdict.
“Absolutely not,” Barden said. “I don’t see it as a vindication of Dr. Murray, and no, I WOULD NOT HIRE HIM AS MY DOCTOR
“IT IS NOT A VINDICATION. AGAIN, IT IS THE WAY THE QUESTION WAS WORDED..”
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Helena, Teammichaeljackson has more information about the jurors here:
http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/8175
Juror 11 is a female pathologist, so she must be the doctor. She probably is retired and so can very well be part of a jury.
It’s a very interesting description of the person.
It says: “… has had 3 jury services, if asked about medical opinion by jurors in jury room will not insert her “professional opinions” to confuse the jurors as they need to relay on evidence presented in court.” But that’s exactly what seems to have happened!
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This foreman was a big mistake.He pretends that fit and competent does have nothing to do with ethics.Ethics is at the core of this case.As I said a GP has to have as high a standard as a brainsurgeon. Their competensy for various prceeduces differs. Not the ethics.Murray was also hired to assist in emergencies. When that happened there was no ethics anymore.
VMJ you hit the nail,the foreman was playing with words.-It´s late read VMJ below carefully.
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Here is a video from TMZ which would not open for me. I hope you are able to see it and tell me what Debbie Rowe says there:
Debbie Rowe — Michael Jackson Wrongful Death Verdict Screwed Katherine Jackson
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_pgz82an1/#ixzz2ghVPpu7C
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“Helena I can assure you that NO M.D. with a current licence ,working in a hospital, clinic or privately will volunteer for jury duty.” – kaarin
But I am not claiming that there was a physician on the jury (it was Thomas Mesereau who said it in an interview). All I am saying is that there were 4 people related to medicine on that panel – a nurse, a male “who works for Baxter Health Care” and two people from the University of California, Los Angeles – a retired cancer researcher and a clinical research coordinator. The former two sound like those who render immediate medical help and the latter two sound like medical researchers.
But in all the four cases these people surely know that a doctor’s job is very closely connected with ethics (is actually based on it), and pretending that they don’t know it is a big lie.
They talk of Murray’s poor ethics only in connection with propofol while he did a lot of other unethical things – like denying Michael help in case of a huge emergency (on June 19th). Or like sending him to a rehearsal on June 14th or 15th revoking his previous decision to give him a sick leave (on June 13) though he saw that Michael was sick. Or like promising to give him some special nutrition cocktails, but instead never even asking what food Kai Chase was giving to Michael and never offering him even a cup of hot tea when his body was icy cold.
In short all throughout that period Murray behaved totally unethically and incompetently towards Michael. And in accordance with the jury’s instructions AEG was responsible for it:
Of course they were negligent by failing to act, at least on June 19th! It was several days before Michael’s death and it was not yet too late to save his life. But what did they say? That it is important to stop Ortega’s hysteria and no one should act as an amateur physician as MJ has a “very successful doctor by his side”!
WE NEED AN APPEAL!
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“Its very shocking in so many ways. You have to read it for yourself, I cannot tell you. And the jurys became Michael Jackson fans is the epitome of cynism. If its too long please cut off. It makes me sick.” – Sina
Thank you, Sina. Yes, it is sick. And the more I read of the foreman the stronger is the impression is that he is simply making a fool of all of us.
Actually it is the exact reflection of AEG’s position and them calling Michael both a “freak” and a great genius. Recently Randy Phillips again called him a genius, only for some reason I immediately recalled the other word.
While you were looking for the article I finally read the jury instructions and checked up Murray’s contract and am ready to point to one extremely big lie in the jury’s arguments.
They say that Murray was hired as “general practitioner” to provide “general care” only, and propofol was not part of his job.
Right, propofol was not part of his job.
But Murray’s contract also says that his “services shall include tending to the Artist’s general medical needs and assisting and treating the Artist in the case of medical emergency”.
So tending to the artist’s general medical needs (insomnia and quick loss of weight) WAS Murray’s responsibility and June 19th WAS a case of great medical emergency!
However he turned out to be totally unqualified to assist in the insomnia, usually being part of general medical care, and also completely unethical as he turned a blind eye on the grave emergency.
So how could the jury name Murray fit and competent if he violated the obligations he was to perform under that contract with AEG?
And the jury did admit that AEG hired Murray, so the contract was valid.
WE NEED AN APPEAL!
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Many who do medical research have degrees in other fields,like biology,pharmaclogy etc. MDs also do research but they are trained in clinical medicine which means being responsible for patients ethically and competently.Not just MDs but also other people in highly demanding fields do not volunteer for jury duty. What to do about that? Personally I would have loved it.but could not do it because of the demands of work.
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Helena I can assure you that NO M.D. with a current licence ,working in a hospital, clinic or privately will volunteer for jury duty.You can not just leave patients like that and your collegues would probably have strangled you as all your work would have fallen on them.I recall getting numerous requestst to sit on a jury,but you always got excused
if you were a doctor.What if one of the jurors just took off for something more important even if it would have been legal.The pay is poor, and even if you would like it for a kind of holiday it is just never done.Now someone can work as an M.D.,lets say for training,internships and in research supervised by a chief without a current M.D. licence.But your job opportunities are limited and pay too.
.You pay a fortune to someone else to do your work and it entails complete checking that the person is fully licenced ,competent and ethical.There were many foreign doctors in US who did not pass the Federation medical examination and worked in fields related to medicine. Nobody forbade them to use M.D. after their name.Also there are doctors in medical related fields,usually Ph.D.s often called doctors.–This trial was a spectacle or a bad joke.The only really happy person was Murray as he had been called competetent.
Oh.holy ignorance.AEG either lied and checked him secretly,it would have suited their aim (acc. to the shameless contract)or they were criminally negligent.What about the 5 mln fee Murray asked for,and 150k is a lot for a GP for one person only.He was neither competent for the task of severe chronic insomnia and Ethics is far from him.He has now also threatened the Jackson about revelations “like a bomb”.I thought that a convicted felon could not profit from his crime.Well,forgot he now considers himself innocent.–Sina,I am sorry for what I read,but thank you, it just adds to the madness of all this.
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Helena, Its from this article. Its very shocking in so many ways. You have to read it for yourself, I cannot tell you.
And the jurys became Michael Jackson fans is the epitome of cynism. If its too long please cut off. It makes me sick.
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Here is the point I was talking about (it was on September 3, the day of Dr. Early’s testimony, the one who is a recovering heroin addict):
And the instruction to the jurors is:
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I will now embed once again the jury instructions into this post (I took them away not to make the post too heavy) and you will see that the AEG lawyers were breaking one of those basic instructions when they were discussing the case close to the jury.
The instructions to the jury say:
I will try to find Panish’s complaint to the judge about the AEG attorneys discussing the case by the jury’s side. It was in one of the transcripts but I will need to look. As far as I remember the judge naturally did not take any action.
Katherine Jackson should appeal!
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“I am baffled by the jurors explanation about their applause for Ortega which was totally inappropriate and should never have happened. And these people decide whether someone is guilty/liable or not.” – Sina
Sina, I am not sure I can force myself to listen to these people, but could you please give a link to the video where you heard them explain their verdict? I have only one where their foreman is talking, but it seems that we need to listen to the rest of them.
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“None of them was a practising MD.Did anyone of them have a current medical license? A license for an MD?” – kaarin
Kaarin, you are asking too much of me. All I know is the information from the newspaper I cited.
But all these people are in the medical profession in this or that way. They most probably said to their colleagues that they would be sitting on a jury (just to explain their absence), and nothing could be easier to influence them than to share by some esteemed doctor his negative opinion about MJ. Even one comment from a big authority in medicine or their boss would have been enough.
And then comes the chain reaction – if all four of them were negative about MJ using propofol (and they were negative, this I am sure of) their opinion would surpress all other arguments, especially since each word said by a medical professional is worth two in such cases.
You can see it even by this blog – when someone in the medical profession tells you that you “got it completely wrong” you feel like a kid in the kindergarten speaking to an adult, even though you studied hundreds of pages on the issue.
Therefore the opinion of those people in the jury surely prevailed. And this is wrong because all jurors are supposed to be on an equal footing.
P.S. But getting a verdict from someone in the medical profession that Murray was competent though he actually killed his patient is growing even more outrageous than it was!
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None of them was a practising MD.Did anyone of them have a current medical license? A license for an MD?
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“When it comes to a medical doctor you cannot separate ethical from competent. This is the weirdest,oddest strangest nd above all the totally wrong way the jurors got it.I dont know if they are that ignorant or what is wrong with them.” – Kaarin
In his recent interview with Beth Karas Thomas Mesereau said that one of the jurors was a physician. It must have been this person who “explained” to the jurors that ethics was not part and parcel of a fit and competent doctor. Sometimes it takes one demagogue to brainwash the minds of many ordinary people who are impressed by his “expert” opinion so much that they lose all common sense.
But when I looked up the list of the jurors I found a totally abnormal number of people involved in the medical field – there are four of them out of 12 people. Two of them are from UCLA.
Why is this high proportion of medical professionals so important? Firstly because if they had supported MJ who asked for propofol they could have been rebuked by their colleagues for breaking the medical ethics, and secondly, because their opinion may be an intimidating factor for all the other jurors who are mere laypeople and don’t understand medicine and rules guiding the profession.
If those four people told the rest that ethics and competence can be separated in a doctor’s job I doubt that the others could stand up to their opinion.
It seems that even at the stage of selecting the jury there were huge mistakes or breaches made. The case should be appealed by all means.
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Am I surprised about the nastiness of the articles, hardly. Nothing has changed really. its Michael Jackson. As Susan said, steel yourself.
re LA times article:
A reporter who writes that its about time that someone loses a case I cannot take seriously.
I think we should make a nice compilation of all AEG quotes for them. the mails trouble at the front and RPs respect for CM after he heard that Michael was deteriorating.
The fact that they hired a man who is in jail for manslaughter and gross negligence.
Just one good comment with the facts will do.
I dont know if links or footage are allowed in their comment section then we could send them the footage of the many many times RP and PG were impeached and CMs documentary where he said what RP told him.
Dont forget to put a link to this site to educate them.
We should try to get a newsmedium for an interview to counter this bs.
We should not always be condemned to the comment section between the hateful and the crazies.
Maybe Team Michael can contact the reporter she had the interview with during the trial to do a follow up of the article . I think it was also LA times.
Or we could write an article and send it to a medium.
Havent heard from Alice in a while. She is a certified journalist, maybe she can write the article with the help of a legal analyst.
It is important to counter this before AEG and CM come out of this as heros.
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Murray asked for 5 million initially.A general practinoner has to be as ethical as a brainsurgeon. This seems to be some kind of hip-hop justice.Murray practiced gross malpractice all along.Ethics is pumped into your mind from day one in medical school.
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Cut off 3rd time.This trial has little if anything to do with thruth and justice. Where do they get jurors for an appeal? Are the any better. Was someone guiding the jurors? It seems impossible to me that nobody knew about ethics in medicine.I don´nt believe it ,someone there must have had common sense.
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I was cut off again. This jury forgot all important evidence by Randy Phillips And Paul Gongaware, or was this the judges doing stating that individuals not be held resposible only AEG .So as a CEO you can lie with impunity as the company takes the fall, or does not as in this case.I cannot believe the statement by the foreman that if the word ethical had been spoken ,that would have canged things.-To me this is the most tywarted,trial and it needs it own article and analysis
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When it comes to a medical doctor you cannot separate ethical from competent. Or you can but only so that for example an eye doctor is not competent to do major surgery.For a doctor to be allowed to practice ethical has to be there. Competence depends on training and specialty.
This is the weirdest,oddest strangest nd above all the totally wrong way the jurors got it.I dont know if they are that ignorant or what is wrong with them.
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Guys, here are some articles. Please leave your comments or rate other people’s replies if you can. We need to make our voice heard too!
You can also rate the aricle here:
http://discussions.latimes.com/20/lanews/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-jury-reaches-verdict-in-wrongful-death-case-20131002/10
The next one is a horror. Comments are allowed but the only chance to rate other people’s replies is to “like” them. There is no chance to rate the article:
And this one is the worst of all three. Besides many other things it calls the vertict “smart” (there is a chance to leave a comment and rate other people’s replies):
Over here you can rate the article (http://discussions.latimes.com/20/lanews/la-me-ln-michael-jackson-verdict-abcarian-20131003/10) At the moment the rate is zero and it would probably be best if it remained that way.
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Susanne, what wonderful words you and others are saying! They should not be lost just in the comments – I think they deserve a post and be brought together as a collection of what all true supporters of Michael say. In fact every comment is so precious and so well thought out that I am speechless and have nothing to add.
Thank you and everyone for the wonderful words of truth!
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I am also still trying to figure out the full picture of the trial. I agree with all of you. The trial result does not make sense at all. The verdict is based on the totally wrong aspects. The jurors either didn’t understand at all what this trial was about or they were biased and influenced from the beginning by the outside world. Some of their explanations showed me they didn’t understand and didn’t listen. They seemed to have forgotten a lot of evidence. Perhaps they really wanted to go home and didn’t take the time to review all evidence again. The verdict cannot be blamed only on the wrong wording of question no. 2.
Jolie, your words are wonderful, and we need people like you here.
I also have given up on a great, united, efficient fan community that could work together to vindicate Michael. It doesn’t exist. Many fans are just drawn to MJ’s name the same way as those who wanted to be near him and use him for their own benefit.
And in addition, many fans just want to see their hero as a sparkling winner who could not be harmed and who always stood above all troubles and emerged victorious in the end. But that’s not reality. Michael lived in a petty, ugly, merciless world that tried to bring him down, and it partly was successful. It was a daily horror of misunderstanding, humiliation and attack. It seems many only stood by him as long as he was the winner, and now they don’t want to see the ugliness of what happened to him. Many just want to celebrate him instead of dealing with the darkness he had to deal with.
His life was so difficult and hard that I wonder how he even could become 50. In 1993 already his life was at a point that he could barely survive. But he pressured and chastened himself to go on – for his fans mainly who he regarded his only backing (later his children). And what do they give him back? Make him responsible for his own death without considering the whole background – I read it in many comments from “fans”.
OK, it’s not all of them, but it’s a large group, of whom many have no idea of this trial because they didn’t follow it. But they judge, like the media. Right, Sina, they are not different from any other person in our society. We have to wind down our expectations from a fan community.
So all of us have to act and go on according to our convictions. I’m glad we have this place here, and I’ll be there when Michael needs us to get justice for him. I hope for an appeal, too.
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Never has the life of the victim of crime been so thoroughly examined. And so little paid to the perpetrators. Upside down sort of.
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Sorry for typos,but WP cut off my comment suddenly.I will make this short as certainly there will be other post on the weirdness of the trial.
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Something is very wrong with this trial. Or a lot is wrong with it.
The jurors total lack of what resoonsibilities come with being a doctor. Down the drain went all the evaive answers by AEG officials,aidv all the warning sign that Michaes health was going down while Murray treated him. No response to cries of help for him. RP just forgot or something like that when Ortega suggested an outside opininion or hospitalisation.
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Well , this is a confusing ending to this trial , …..The jury is saying AEG thought him competent to do his job, ( supposedly just being a regular physician and keeping MJ hydrated etc), but they didnt see anything about being ethical., in the question., which he wasnt.., so that didnt count…
If you are a competent doctor , you have to be ethical.
If a doctor asks for 5 million dollar, that would speak to ethics and should have alerted AEG, that the job was more then hydrating MJ..
So I guess the verdict is about him always being competent , but choosing to be unethical by leaving his patient alone on a drip for many nights., which AEG supposedly didnt know about.
And they were in the dark about MJ drug use, but were concerned about Klien..
But they got a doctor from the East coast for the insurance physical , so they were doing their own doctor shopping to move this concert forward..
I think for this jury they just could not say that AEG could foresee what Murray was doing , with the propaful., which shouldn’t have mattered in what manner he died , it was the negligence and the conflict of interest ..
I know it is a let down ,but AEG hardly came out of this looking stellar.
It is all on record , the way they lied and treated MJ from the very beginning.
Just incredible that it took so little time for a verdict in a 5 mth trial…
Chernoff saying Murray was a big fish in a little pond , was correct.
Thank you for all your research and hard work Helena,,
you have mapped out all the betrayal of MJ by the executives very well
.
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And I forgot to thank my God and savior, Jesus, yes the same Jesus Michael so often quoted. He makes all things new…
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I just want to say that my heart is full of gratefulness to you Helena, for all your research. I really am in awe of your work. Your blog really has a heart for Michael. I love all the fellow-researchers. What a fight this trial has been. What a fight Michael’s LIFE has been. Remember the song, Will You Be There? There was speculation, was Michael talking to his fans? Well, I guess we ARE there for you, Michael. We are keeping you and your work alive. God’s work really. So I guess there is a great divide. Between light and darkness? Between truth and lie? At this point after the verdict, well, why do WE see one thing, and the OTHER side sees another? I cannot even bear to watch video on the jury and jury foreman’s remarks yet. I cannot bear to hear any more unreasonableness. Both sides see entirely different realities. All I know is that, deep down inside, I am at peace. Michael is in heaven with God, finally at peace, and away from all this nonsense. Even tho Michael may be looking on, his work on earth is finished. But our work must go on. Michael is such an inspiration, we can make a difference in this world. We can leave our mark too, on this world for good, making the world a better place. But I guess suffering is part of the fight. But Michael is at peace. What a consolation that is.
I really don’t know what else to say. But I wanted to have my ‘stream of consciousness’ moment. I love Michael so much. I have learned so much from him. And of course, you all feel the same way. That is why I am here right now. Getting ready to make my mark too. Am I ready? Love you all. I really mean it. You are all great people, Michael’s true fans.
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I am trying to get the full picture of the verdict and it makes no sense to me. They say that the doctor was fit and competent for the job when he was HIRED by AEG. But doesn’t negligent hiring also involves supervising and or retaining. Imo they did all three of them in a bad negligent way.
When they hired him they could not have known after 10 minutes googling that he was incompetent. But while he was working and they were SUPERVISING him, there were many signs that he was incompetent.They talked about trouble at the front after bringing the doctor in the fold and the same doctor told in his documentary how AEG bullied him and threatened Michael, and Prince confirmed it . They had the right to fire CM yet they RETAINED him to use him as a means of pressure on Michael. So how come only the hiring part is taken into account. And not the supervising and retaining, against signs that he was deteriorating while being treated by the doctor.
And if a question about his ethics would have gotten a yes according to the juror, than what in their ignorant mind is a Hippocratic oath about? And now as we expected Murray and his lawyer are delusional enough to see this as a vindication and an acknowledgement of his competence. And the same jurors who said he was competent responds by saying he should not see it as such. How do you explain such a verdict to the public.
I am baffled by the jurors explanation about their applause for Ortega which was totally inappropriate and should never have happened. And these people decide whether someone is guilty/liable or not.
I really hope Michaels family will appeal, because the whole case is a mess and the Judge herself was incompetent. It should go to a court that is better equipped for a case like this , and with the correct charges.
Which should not be limited to negligent hiring but total negligence or even strict liability. And fraud because that is what Michaels contract was. My thoughts are with mrs Jackson . I hope she is strong enough to proceed and wants to do it. It takes a heavy toll and not many have the stamina for it ,also considering her age.
I am ready to go along with her and will never tire to fight a righteous fight.
AEG will not get away with this. We owe it to Michael.
“I’ve been to some forums and see that most “fans” side with the jury and condemn Katherine Jackson”- Helena
Helena, not every fan needs to be taken seriously , fans are not different from another man in the street or the usual internet bully. The existence of a fan comm.- unity is an illusion I have put behind me a long time ago. We dont have anything in common other than our admiration for Michael and in real life these people would not be my friends because we don’t share the same values. So I dont really care about their opinion. And they are not ‘most’ fans, because Michael has millions of fans who you don’t even know or hear about. My family and many of my friends love Michael but they never go on MJ forums. These fans are the same ones on the same forums with the same rethoric and the same attitude.As they have nothing really to contribute than hate, they will vanish when there is nothing more to hate.
There are many bloggers like yourself who are real advocates, who research, investigate ,write and chronicle Michaels life , trials and art with integrity. There are also groups that do great work who I support, like charities and some who just honour Michael in silence. One of them is Sunflowers for Michael who now for 4 years has been taking care that Michael has fresh beautiful flowers by his side from fans, every single week. The person who organizes it is a very dedicated , selfless woman who has been doing this since day one. If once you want to send flowers or cards to Michael and get a picture of your own flowers at Forest lawn, you can contact the (closed) facebookgroup.
Right now I am about to send flowers to Michael. Who wants can join me.
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Very disappointed in the verdict. AEG is responsible for MJ’s death, and they know it. Being unethical is the same as incompetent, because you’re being paid based on your judgment.
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Err. I felt like the explanations are very weird.
This is so unfair. Will here be an appeal for this?
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“However. I’m not going to let this crush me. None of us should.” – Rodrigo
The verdict is horrendous, but in itself is not crushing because it is obviously wrong. It is the reaction to it which is baffling and disheartening. Misplacing the focus and blaming Michael for his death on the part of the media could be easily expected.
But MJ fans? One would imagine that at least they would see the absurdity of the verdict – the jury named Murray “competent” though he actually killed MJ by his negligence, and went to jail for it.
He didn’t stay by his patient’s side, didn’t give him proper CPR, did not call 911, didn’t pay attention to MJ turning skeletal, didn’t give a damn when he was icy cold and was totally unable to help him with his sleeplessness (which is by the way the job of a general practitioner) – and after all that they agree that he was ‘fit and competent’? No wonder that Murray feels vindicated now.
I’ve been to some forums and see that most “fans” side with the jury and condemn Katherine Jackson! These comments are typical and this is what makes it so hard:
But my biggest concern is that all these people don’t understand that ethics is an inherent part of a doctor’s job, and that the law and ethics are something different for them:
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“Is it just me or do many of the jurors look a tad uneducated?” – Tatum
Not only uneducated but totally unethical themselves. Something is seriously wrong with people who think and openly declare that ethics is not part of a doctor’s job.
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I really don’t know what to say.
Never really been able to concerning this trial.
Murray was certainly not competent. His behaviour before Michael was found, it was unethical. Negligent. Upon finding him, it can be further classed as negligent, unethical and even criminal.
Same goes for AEG.
Those jurors clearly had no brains in making those verdicts.
However. I’m not going to let this crush me. None of us should.
I know a lot of this trial has been or at least seemed damaging towards Michael’s image.
But it doesn’t change anything. We still know the truth best. We know in our hearts the man he really was.
I just know we’ve got a harder war on our hands. Battles are fought, and we either win or we lose. That’s life. But we’re not going to give up, are we?
My 3 year old niece has found the joys of listening and watching Michael. She’s practically obsessed, she loves him to bits.
And next year, we’re going to have another fight on our hands when Wade gets his say.
I’m DETERMINED not to let that little prick dirty Michael’s good name any further and break that little girls heart.
That’s a battle I’m going to fight 100% of the way.
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Not sure why, but I had a feeling this farce of a trial would have another twist in it’s tale. Not shocked at all with the stupidity of the questions and the equally stupid answers that came back. The jury should have had the common sense to seek more guidance on question 2 knowing what was at stake.
Listening to the jury members interview I felt that there was a certain amount of persuasion going on in the room during deliberations. When I did jury service I came across the same sort of thing and you can start to doubt what you believe to be true. I had my answer and stuck to my guns fortunately, but others were open to that persuasion and changed their view when it came to the crunch.
I don’t think it’s over by a long shot, bearing in mind the jury found AEG to be the employer of Dr Murray which was the crux of the matter in the first place. If I were them I wouldnt be cracking the champagne corks just yet.
My heart goes out to Katherine and the children though, because they needed answers and maybe got more than what they bargained for, their grief must be as raw as ever. The only compensation Katherine can take at this moment is the fact that she now knows what happened to her son in his final months. As a mother myself I am guessing she will forever blame herself for not doing more to help, but that may not have changed the outcome, as children will hide their deepest despairs away from their mothers heart and as we heard, Michael was no different.
There were many revelations during the trial which put paid to the many lies that were made over Michael’s lifetime and I hope Katherine can take comfort in the knowledge that she has won the fight to make those truths known.
We are down, but not out and this can only make us stronger and more determined to fight for the man we all loved.
Keep the Faith everyone.
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A very weird trial.And what has Murrays hope of getting his sentence reversed have to do with the AEG trial. Seems totally illogical.He was the doctor whose duty is always what is best for his patient.
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One of the jurors is speaking about media speculation despite the fact that the plaintiffs proved Michael took medication for relevant reasons. Is it just me or do many of the jurors look a tad uneducated?
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It was the greatests of mistakes I heard that Murray was declared fit in the AEG trial. He is a
deceptive, lying psychopath and those rarely change. Undoubtedly he has some capacity to act,so some may be mistaken regarding his true self.He is also a coward. He did not want to call in an outside doctor as that would have brought his criminal behaviour into light.Rather let Michael die.That was deliberate and could be murder.
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I am lost for words and sick to my stomach.
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I agree with what Elaine and Dialdancer have said. Apparently the jury was confused or perhaps high on coca cola since they came back and said that Conrad Murray was competent as a general practitioner. Since when does a competent GP or cardiologist not know how to give CPR. Murray was not even qualified to practice as a GP he would not even know how to give a GYN exam which GP’s do know how to do. Every Dr. that is sued for Malpractice is competent until they make a mistake. In fact the jury should not have even been asked that question that was already established by the trial in which Murray was convicted. When they agreed that AEG did hire Murray, the next question should have been was there a conflict of interest caused by this, and did AEG put money ahead of MJ’s well being . One can be competent and be forced or be put under undue pressure to do something that is wrong. The trial was not about Murrays competency it was about AEG lack of regard for MJ health and as well as their apparent disdain of him.
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Certified in CPR and proven ethical.
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This is the first time in my life (in medicine) I hear that a general practitioner does not need to be ethical.And the answer to the first question hinged on this one word! We needed to be certified in it, GPs or specialists.
Murray lost his priviledges in some hospital(s).His life should be scrutinized as carefully as MJ´s
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I am back now (we had to harvest our potatoes finally), but my thoughts were with the case all the time. I meanwhile watched Mesereau’s interview and I’m not sure if I understood him correctly. Did he say he talked to some of the plaintiff’s lawyers and that they will definitely appeal? I really hope they do because the explanation of the jurors makes an appeal even more justified or necessary.
It’s true, it’s not a win for AEG because of the explanation the verdict is based on, but due to the media spin everybody sees it as a big win for them. Here in Germany no media outlet does explain the verdict. It is just: AEG won, the Jacksons lost. So it is our duty to analyze it and explain it to everybody.
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The whole story is absurd. Initially Thome takes his friend T.Barrack to meet Michael. Instructs him to talk fluff. They scare him;do as we say or it will be a funeral. Thome assures Michael that he will take care of everything, Michael just concentrate on the Music.
Michael got scared of Thome already in Sept.2008. By that time the conspirational contract was already part done. It was deception and foul play from the beginning. And who says they did not know what a lousy, unethical guy Murray was already then. Dont think they did not have all the means to find out. Thome,the fraudster, had followed Michael for some time. Whether he also knew Murray I dont know. At least T Barrack knew. Everything fell nicely into place and they started constructing the devilish contract. T B. knew how to take the homes from people and turn them into rentals. Thome is the errand boy for the real big guys.
Dont close your eyes for the corruption in big, multinational business, please dont be so naive..They even saw to it that Michael paid that prince or sheik in Bahrain immediately.
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“This jury verdict is totally absurd. It doesn’t make sense at all. And their explanation is absurd, too. They declare a doctor competent just because he has a license and studied at an accredited college. This gives him automatically competence? They apparently forgot that Murray didn’t even know how to do CPR.
And they explain that if the question had included ethics, the answer would have been different. But to be ethical is part of being competent in a doctor’s job, isn’t it? That’s why they have the Hippocratic Oath. They didn’t decide in a reasonable manner, they were not competent and fit to be jurors. It’s an irresponsible decision, and I believe they just wanted to go home after these 5 months.” – Susanne
I agree with every word of it!
It is not a win for AEG as the main question on which everything else depended – Did they hire Murray? – was given a YES answer. But as you have seen the media is quickly turning it into something different. Look at this opening sentence in the LA Times:
So the summary of what they have told us by now is this:
1) AEG did hire Murray
2) Murray was fit and competent
3) But the tragedy “just happened” (evidently for no reason at all).
But the reality is different. Let us look at it in the reverse order:
3) the tragedy would not have happened if Murray had not left his patient unattended on the night of his death and if he had paid attention to MJ’s visible deterioration of health in the few weeks prior to it, especially since people around him were openly calling for help
2) so Murray was both unfit and incompetent (couldn’t help) and grossly unethical (didn’t want to), and this was proven at a criminal trial where the burden of proof is much higher than at a civil trial
1) and it was AEG which hired this unfit, incompetent and unethical doctor, and the jury in the civil trial asserted it.
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Oh yes Helena! The jurors are certainly not dumb! They are far too clever. Even if they are to say that the doctor was fit and competent at the time of hiring, what happened to his ‘competency’ when Michael’s health started deteriorating and this was brought to the attention of his boss- AEG? Doesn’t the fact that AEG’s denial of Michael’s condition make them even more liable?
Why and how did this verdict get accepted?
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“I have never known any other celebrity or even a human being so tarnished for life and even after death! But there is a higher court that will mete out the real justice. So much for a man who gave so much and who trusted his fellow humans.” – Suparna
Michael Jackson lived and died in gross injustice. In short he is a real MARTYR.
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“Have no words for this. TOTALLY DISGUSTING!! So the million dollar question as to who hired the doctor – was decided to be AEG, but then the most commonsensical one – as to whether that doctor was fit or not was a yes!” – Suparna
Absolutely disgusting. AEG and all the rest of them standing behind these manipulations deceived us like small kids in the area where we least expected it – in the simplest of the questions about Murray being fit or unfit for the job.
Now the presiding juror smiles explaining that as a “general practitioner” (which he was hired for) Murray was fit, but for giving propofol he was not. Okay, even if we agree with this misleading rationale, we should also agree that any general practitioner should be extremely worried if he sees that his patient’s body is icy cold, that he is rambling and is quickly turning skeletal.
Had Murray been “fit and competent” he would have sounded a loud alarm and not pacified those who were worried about this situation. So this alone should have told those smiling jurors that they were taking a totally wrong decision, but for some reason it did not.
All I am wondering about now is why these jurors did what they did – because they are completely dumb or for other reasons. Their foreman does not look dumb to me. On the contrary his slight smile is telling me that he knows what he did and why:
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“I am surprised that Yvette would be so terrible biased and leave herself open to reversal. The jury instructions were a big problem. They were just WRONG. I think the jury was forced into making the wrong “decision” because of them.” -Julie
Of course the judge was biased and of course the “instructions” were meant to confuse and manipulate the jurors’ minds. But these people should have used their own brains and plain common sense.
Or they should have at least recalled that Murray was unfit to do even the CPR properly. Any “general practitioner” (who Murray was not) and especially a cardiologist (who he was) should know that CPR is not done on a bed!
And every competent and fit doctor should call 911 in case of emergency and not wait for 20 minutes or so, or run down and up the stairs looking for someone to first clear the room and then call 911. Calling for professional medical help in case of emergency is simply part of their protocol same as it is part of every normal person’s code of behavior.
If we always listen to the “instructions” of some manipulators we will always be like a flock of sheep easily taken to a slaughter-house.
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I have sent several mails to you and cannot understand why they did not reach you. One had that message about the mail demon or whatever it is.I will just give you a name, I think you can take it from there.
r.
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Chris Hedges. Are they blocking my e-mais to you?
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“Helena take a look at the writings of that author I suggested to you.” – Kaarin
Kaarin, I haven’t received anything.
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Exactly Susan! Competency and ethical conduct go hand in hand- and that is especially true of a medical practitioner! If someone is not ethical means that doctor is not competent to treat the patient. This is common sense. The jurors cannot be so dumb in reality. Or if they actually are, then God help their employers and family.
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Sorry, Helena, I couldn’t watch TM live anymore, I took a sleep pill because I knew how this would affect me. I’m sure I still can watch the TM interview in a video.
My first conclusions after a few hours’ sleep:
This jury verdict is totally absurd. It doesn’t make sense at all.
And their explanation is absurd, too. They declare a doctor competent just because he has a license and studied at an accredited college. This gives him automatically competence? They apparently forgot that Murray didn’t even know how to do CPR.
And they explain that if the question had included ethics, the answer would have been different. But to be ethical is part of being competent in a doctor’s job, isn’t it? That’s why they have the Hippocratic Oath. They didn’t decide in a reasonable manner, they were not competent and fit to be jurors. It’s an irresponsible decision, and I believe they just wanted to go home after these 5 months.
But who knows, who else influenced this verdict. All of it could have been orchestrated, not necessarily for AEG (because it’s also not a big win for them), but definitely against Michael.
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All the negativity against Michael has been orchestrated. Of late by AEG and earlier by others with big money and wish to keep it so. They feed on the people Michael have so often helped and tried for them to avoid destitution. God help us people on this earth..
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Helena take a look at the writings of that author I suggested to you.
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Yes, so the tabloid trash prevails after all- all their portrayal of MJ prevails!! He is still being looked upon as a drug addict and this image prevails! I have never known any other celebrity or even a human being so tarnished for life and even after death! But there is a higher court that will mete out the real justice. So much for a man who gave so much and who trusted his fellow humans.
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Have no words for this. TOTALLY DISGUSTING!! So the million dollar question as to who hired the doctor- was decided to be AEG, but then the most commonsensical one- as to whether that doctor was fit or not was a yes! The jury makes it sound like the question here is whether the doctor was qualified enough to be e general physician- to which they said a yes and say that had the question been whether the doctor was ethical the outcome would have been different! So then what about someone asking them that MJ’s greatest problem was sleep and this doctor was unfit to help him with that? MJ did not need a general physician- he needed a sleep expert!
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I am surprised the Yvette would be so terrible biased and leave herself open to reversal. The jury instructions were a big problem. They were just WRONG. I think the jury was forced into making the wrong “decision” because of them.
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Hopefully the program will be recorded and we can watch it again. My big thanks to Thomas Mesereau for always standing up for Michael and to Beth Karas – just for inviting Thomas Mesereau and for her honesty.
And thank you to A-Place-in-your-heart for sharing my views on the farce we’ve seen today in the courtroom. The chat was quick and it was difficult to listen and type.
Life is going on guys, and at least one good thing about it is that Michael can no longer see the shame of today’s events at the trial.
Thomas Mesereau said that if the case goes to appeal all decisions of the judge can be reversed there, even those which narrowed down the case to only one point of hiring this “competent” doctor (who killed his patient).
It’s 5 am here, so let me have some sleep now. Tomorrow will be another day.
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“With this verdict I dont see a win for AEG at all. It was established that they hired a doctor who is in jail for killing the artist. Nothing to be proud of. I think they should appeal. A higher court is much more sophisticated to answer a question like this.” – Sina
Of course they should appeal. And let the higher court show its worth this time. And we will watch them and see.
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“There is more to that and we probably first have to sleep over it to find some answers.” – Susanne
I suggest we don’t sleep and listen to Thomas Mesereau instead (especially since you have a holiday tomorrow).
As to finding an answer all this was a typical travesty of justice which is no better than a farce our authorities recently organized for our opposition figure Navalny. Oh, they also had a trial, witnesses and a judge. Only everyone knew the outcome from the very beginning of it though everything was done “according to law”.
For me it is even funny to see so many similarities between the two farces.
This way the system is ruining itself on its own. People are no fools. They see what’s happening. And those who want to preserve the corrupt system should better realize that they are eroding their system with their own hands.
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The irony
I wonder if the fans who wanted AEG to win will feel vindicated that AEG got away Not because they didnt hire him because they did, but because the doctor who murdered Michael was considered fit and competent for the job .
Great way to win. Now we will see the real agenda why people were against the trial . It was not because of Michael but because they were blinded by the money involved.
With this verdict I dont see a win for AEG at all.
It was established that they hired a doctor who is in jail for killing the artist. Nothing to be proud of.
I think they should appeal. A higher court is much more sophisticated to answer a question like this.
How was he fit for a job when there was no clear job discription. What services was he going to provide with all the equipment he needed.
Did they know what his job really was, why he was around 24/7 and why he needed epcr machine for a man who was supposed to do 50 shows and was near dead a month before the shows would start.
“Who said Murray can appeal his criminal conviction based on the verdict in AEG’s trial?
I’m not sure that’s accurate.’ lopsided man
It was a rethorical question.
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Well guys, it is time to go to Thomas Mesereau who starts his interview with Beth Karas in less than 25 minutes:
http://wildabouttrial.com/videos/court-discussion-with-beth-karas-4.html
It is 3.30 am here and it seems that I am doomed to a sleepless night.
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The case always was about who hired Conrad Murray, and now the case fails with the question whether Murray was competent or not. I’m thinking all the time what that means. This is strange.
But my head is spinning now, we are both in the middle of the night, Helena. I try to get some sleep, thank God we have a holiday tomorrow here.
There is more to that and we probably first have to sleep over it to find some answers.
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“Shame on Branca, McClain, Weitzman, Katz for supporting AEG against Michael’s own mother and children!” – Lopsided man
Of this I am not sure. I had the impression that they were covering the cost on all the experts summoned in this case. Mr. Panish was not charging Mrs. Jackson the fee but the many thousands of dollars on costs of the experts and fees on filing various motions could come only from the Estate.
Who else? Katherine does not have this money.
Moreover she once even said that the money for the lawsuit was coming from the Estate.
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“Just know that it wasn’t in vain. God bless you.” – Lopsided man
Oh, this is the best I could only hope for. God bless you and all of us too.
It is very hard to see lies triumphing over the truth but you never know how it will turn out in the future.
So let it be that LIES enjoy their PIRRHIC VICTORY here.
Note from Wiki: Pirrhic victory is used as an analogy in fields such as business, politics, and sports to describe struggles that end up ruining the victor.
So following Plutarch let us say that after the LIES won their bloody victory, let the TRUTH flow in as from a fountain not at all abated in courage for the loss it sustained, but gain new force and resolution to go on with the fight!
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Shame on Branca, McClain, Weitzman, Katz for supporting AEG against Michael’s own mother and children!
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It’s easy to be discouraged at a time like this but remember….We can’t give up our fight to get Justice for Michael. In fact we fight harder now.
I just want to thank you Helena and Taaj (@ TeamMichaelJackson.com) for all your hard work in bringing us the FACTS against the Corporate Media & the Corporate puppets at MJJCommunity (Ivy).
Just know that it wasn’t in vain.
God bless you.
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“Who said Murray can appeal his criminal conviction based on the verdict in AEG’s trial? I’m not sure that’s accurate.” – Lopsided man
Anything is possible in this crooked world of justice, and we have seen it with our own eyes.
You know, I never expected such a reaction from myself but I am actually almost laughing. Not quite, but still… This is indeed ridiculous.
P.S. I never expected No to that question either, especially since the jury in the criminal trial said YES to the same. This is indeed a farce.
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I never thought question no. 2 would be the one they would say NO. This is a farce.
Can the Jacksons also appeal?
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Who said Murray can appeal his criminal conviction based on the verdict in AEG’s trial?
I’m not sure that’s accurate.
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Moreover, Murray may turn into a hero – he spent 2 whole years in jail and for nothing too. I wish he became a personal doctor for these 12 morons. They fully deserve him.
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So now Murray can appeal succesfully because a jury in a civil case found him competent and fit while in criminal court he was convicted of a crime.
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“Jurors rule AEG hired Dr. Murray, but Murray wasn’t incompetent. 17 different deviations of care – but Murray wasn’t incompetent. Unbelievable!” – Lopsided man
Actually this way the jurors overturned Conrad Murray’s guilty verdict reached at the criminal trial. Totally unbelievable.
Where have they found these 12 morons?
Now I understand why during deliberations lunch was the primary concern of these people. For some people nutrition is everything.
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The Corporatocracy prevails.
Jurors rule AEG hired Dr. Murray, but Murray wasn’t incompetent. 17 different deviations of care – but Murray wasn’t incompetent.
Unbelievable!
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Question No.1 – Did AEG hire Conrad Murray?
The jurors said YES.
Question No.2 – Was Murray unfit or incompetent?
The jurors said NO.
So Murray was fit and competent and spent two years in jail in vain?
What an incredible result.
The triumph of American justice.
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Thank you, Helena, I’m in tears now, but I know we never give up.
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“Just don’t know how to get along with a non guilty verdict. My feelings are upside down.” – Susanne
Susanne, just as you said – steel yourself for the worst and remember that we are fighting the Beast. In a fight like this it is difficult to win.
But God has ways to turn even the worst into something good.
Let me embrace you and all of us at this very hard moment.
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Oh yes, Sina, we will!
Just don’t know how to get along with a non guilty verdict. My feelings are upside down.
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I’ve made some calculations. If there were 16 questions to answer and all in all the jury spent on them 13 hours 44 minutes, it means that the jurors spent less than an hour on each question. For a case like that it is a stunning result.
So the case is either absolutely clear to them or all of it was just a mere formality and all they want is go home.
P.S.
ABC says: “We are told juror 6 will read a statement after the verdict is read. Juror 6 is the foreperson.” [the one with whom AEG lawyers flirted]
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“No matter how they minimized the case what came out in the open about AEG will always stay and we will take it further.” – Sina
Oh YES!
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But as regards the verdict I have two directly opposite feelings – that of being nervous and being calm knowing that the truth is with Katherine Jackson. -Helena
I have exactly the same feeling.
No matter how they minimized the case what came out in the open about AEG will always stay and we will take it further.
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“we have to steel ourselves!”
Well, we do know that AEG was not only an employer but a master of Conrad Murray. And Tohme (in Sullivan’s book) said that they even agreed to pay for Murray.
But as regards the verdict I have two directly opposite feelings – that of being nervous and being calm knowing that the truth is with Katherine Jackson.
All that remains to be seen now is how the American justice works. And it is a third feeling – that of being curious.
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Verdict will be read at 6:30pm ET / 3:30pm PT.
I don’t know what to make of the the jurors rather short deliberation. But remember, in a civil case the burden of proof against the defendant is MUCH lower than a defendant in a criminal case….
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Exactly. Doesn’t feel good … we have to steel ourselves!
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“OMG, I’m trembling. Isn’t it too early? Can they have gone through all the questions already?” – Susanne
Yes, Susanne, it is too early. Considering that the jurors deliberated for 13 hours only, this is not a good sign. Hope I am wrong, terribly wrong…
P.S. I looked up Pacific time and it is 2:28 now, so it will be read in an hour if my calculations are correct.
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The verdict is faster than expected. I hope its a good one.
Michael deserves justice,
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WATCH IT LIVE: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=9259817
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OMG, I’m trembling. Isn’t it too early? Can they have gone through all the questions already?
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This was posted on abc7 courts twitter:
VERDICT HAS BEEN REACHED. TO BE READ AT 3:30 pm PT. WE WILL LIVE STREAM IT AT http://www.abc7.com
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ABC:
VERDICT HAS BEEN REACHED. TO BE READ AT 3:30 pm PT. WE WILL LIVE STREAM IT AT http://www.abc7.com
TOTAL DELIBERATION: 13 hours and 44 minutes
Today was Day 4 of deliberation, Day 90 of trial.
1:49 pm, 2 very distinct buzzes were heard in the courtroom. Jurors indicated they had reached a verdict after 13hrs 44mins of deliberation
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And here is one more piece of very important information.
Today a fairly honest journalist Berth Karas whom many of us remember by reporting from Conrad Murray’s trial will interview Thomas Mesereau about the AEG case. The interview will be broadcast in 3 hours 50 minutes from now and you can hear and see the interview live on this page:
http://wildabouttrial.com/videos/court-discussion-with-beth-karas-4.html
Please share this post!
Questions to Mr. Meseareau can also be submitted! See here: http://wildabouttrial.com/videos/court-discussion-with-beth-karas-4.html
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“VMJ you are right it is a system, a machine fighting Michael Jackson.And with so many facets that it is even impossible to name them all.” – kaarin
Some people may be wondering what I mean by the “system” or a “machine” and let me say that I actually don’t know what it is and how it is functioning. All I see is a multitude of details which perfectly fit each other and form a kind of a system, an orchestra where each instrument knows its part and is playing it very well.
And in this symphony of efforts it is small things that impress most – like for example, Randy Phillips recalling in his testimony Mark Lester several times and here we go, the media simultaneously publishes a series of articles with his crazy parenthood claims regarding Paris Jackson. It is actually a thrill to see and trace small coincidences like that which always – I mean always – turn out to be aimed against Michael Jackson.
If you notice anything like that please post your observations here. We need to make a register of all these marvels taking place against Jackson.
P.S. In the meantime let me repeat what I earlier said about Mark Lester’s claims that his dauther Harriet looks like Paris and this is why he thinks Paris is his “daughter”:
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Jury deliberation resumes today (Oct 1) 9:30 am PT. Link below for ABC7Courts Twitter Page: https://twitter.com/ABC7Courts – Jolie
Now here is some news from the ABC – on October 28 Conrad Murray will be released! It is even less than 2 years!
Monday was a day off for the jurors. Day 3 of the jury deliberations started on Tuesday only:
In my opinion the jurors have deliberated for very little time considering that they started on Thursday last week. Looks like they are either not taking it seriously enough, or are too tired, or are having problems in reaching an agreement, so take some breaks to cool off.
It also seems that they spend most of their time eating.
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They, Thome and his friend T.Barrack were lying and deceiving Michael from day 1.Then the crooked cotract that guaranteed them the profit no matter what, and in the end it did not matter to them whwther he lived or died. Just that they did not look responsible.Some manipulations necessary for that.
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Have we now reached according to H.H.;Empire of illusion:The end of literacy and the triumph of spectacle.
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VMJ you are right it is a system, a machine fighting Michael Jackson.And with so many facets that it is even impossible to name them all. How on earth did they know Murray is a successful Psysician?How come he was practically broke with his house in foreclosure? Thomas Barrack should have known.And he practically gave Neverland to T.Barrack´s freind and business associate,Thome,Mj paying Thome 2-3 mil on top.not to talk about the contract now.And Randy Phillips considering Murray a successful physician,why then broke?
I think they knew Murrays situation from the get go. With their contacts they may have wellcome him with open arms.Many started work without formally signing on.Some got it later, but with Murray they refused to have a formal ,signed contract for obvious reasons
The more time Randy Phillips spent with Murray the higher his regard for murray??
And having no shame, talking about corporate responsibility here…
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Hi Everyone,
Jury deliberation resumes today (Oct 1) 9:30 am PT. Link below for ABC7Courts Twitter Page:
https://twitter.com/ABC7Courts
Pray for wisdom for the jury today. Love to all.
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Of course, you’re right, Helena, but with all this tension regarding the trial I would like to point to something positive happening right now:
There are two new tribute albums of musicians covering Michael’s music – one of jazz musicians:
http://www.cleveland.com/popmusic/index.ssf/2013/09/bwbs_norman_brown_kirk_whalum.html
and the other one of heavy metal musicians:
These are big musical contrasts, but Michael’s music attracts all of them and we see again that his music transcends all boundaries – despite all negative media reports and attempts to belittle him. Just something for encouragement.
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Susanne, as you understand, ALL of it is very worrying.
It is worrying to see the AEG attorneys openly flirting with the jurors and running over to their witnesses to comfort them. Their witness Cherylin Lee cried on the stand saying that “this is so unfair”, the AEG lawyer ran to “comfort” her and all the judge said to that is that “It just happened” and she cannot reprimand anyone for it.
It is worrying to see the judge often helpless (or biased) when it comes to AEG’s breaches of conduct and seeing her reducing AEG’s case to hiring Murray only which does not enable the Jacksons’ side to investigate the case in full measure.
All those “legal analysts” are also worrying. They go on TV during the jury deliberations and repeat AEG’s mantra that MJ was an adult and was solely responsible for his death. However they choose to totally overlook the fact that AEG people are also adults and should also bear responsibility for what they do – for example, for slapping the star of their show after which Michael had the right to refuse to work with Phillips and could probably even sue him. And should AEG be responsible for making Michael perform at every rehearsal 6 days a week for two months running though their own lawyer Shawn Trell says that it is an insult to any artist to demand this of him?
And all those coincidences are also worrying – as soon as the trial starts Wade Robson pops up diverting everyone’s attention from AEG to his crazy story. And when the trial is in its crucial stage of jury deliberations WR pops up again, this time with the judge setting the date of trial for this total absurdity. If we were misinformed in this respect the timing of misinformation is also worrisome.
It is also worrisome to see Randy Phillips mention Mark Lester several times in his testimony though of the key issues he didn’t rmember a thing, and to see Mark Lester simultaneously claiming crazy things about his “fatherhood” of Paris Jackson.
It is also extremely worrisome that all this time the fan community was inflitrated by what Karen Faye calls minions of AEG who were guiding fans in their choices against the Jacksons’ family and in favor of AEG ever since Michael’s death.
It is also staggering that four years after his death the IRS suddenly recalculated the cost of Michael’s catalogue and intends to penalize the Estate, though all the time while Michael was alive no one doubted the smaller figure at which it was estimated by Mr. Briggs and his company who coincidentally testified for AEG in this case.
The list of worrisome signs can go on and on, and all of it unfortunately shows that there is a system, a machine fighting Michael Jackson that has so many facets that it is difficult even to name them all. And it is only the willpower and honesty of 12 humans which may be standing up against this system.
Will they be able to make an honest decision in these circumstances? Can we be sure that none of them are being intimidated or influenced in the private of their homes, if this was done to them even openly, on the court premises when some woman approached the jurors and told them not to award money to Jacksons?
The jurors indeed face a difficult choice – collaborate with the system or be honest and stay human. People can be weak, but they can also be very strong, and the verdict will show who these people are.
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“I think you wanted Closing Arguments Rebuttal by Brian Panish by TeamMichael: http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/9872#.UkorXrts-n0.twitter” – Jolie
Jolie, thank you. TeamMJ were very quick in obtaining the script. I’ve embedded it into the post.
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Helena, I meant the video posted below by jolie, the first one (crime time).
It’s indeed worrying because I think this is a respected TV show where also Tom Mesereau was a guest several times.
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Helena,
I think you wanted Closing Arguments Rebuttal by Brian Panish by TeamMichael:
http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/9872#.UkorXrts-n0.twitter
Scroll to end of page.
Take care Helena.
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Karen Faye’s Twitter https://twitter.com/wingheart – Jolie
Karen’s tweets are indeed very interesting. I hope I am not breaking any rules by publishing them here (they are public anyway). First of all this information is extremely important:
Then I found that she is quite familiar with Ivy of MJJCommunity and is of the same opinion of this “fan” as I am:
I agree with everything Karen says and it is only her thinking that Ivy is “Estate-conduit” which makes me doubt. AEG and the Estate pursue different goals, and the fact that they are sponsoring Katherine’s suit speaks louder than words.
Karen Faye on AEG:
I seldom use Twitter but could not help asking Karen a question if AEG ever told her that all productions costs including the salaries were to be covered by MJ and if she thinks MJ had any idea of it. She has not answered yet and I don’t know whether she will. But if she knows the answer it will be greatly instrumental for further research.
She also said that after the trial she will reveal the information Kenny Ortega told her and which she messaged to her boyfriend the next morning. That message was not made available at the trial. By the way Ivy knows it but does not reveal it as it should be damning for AEG:
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Susanne, what video are you talking of? Not that I want to see it, but still it is worth learning how AEG and their PR teams continue to bombard people with their propaganda hoping to create a negative environment for Katherine Jackson and affect the jurors this way. I don’t believe the jury is totally immune to television on their days off. If not them, but their families do watch it.
It was Phillips. He said he thought Murray was successful because he asked for a high salary – and the bigger the asking price the more successful he would have thought him to be. This type of thinking was quite a revelation to me and this is why I remembered it.
My big thanks to you Susanne, and all helpful supporters too. I am happy that Michael has brought us together.
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Yes, Sina, this trial uncovered a lot but this information wasn’t further looked into, probably due to the limited scope of the case. However the facts we now have provide an opportunity to carry out an investigation of what really happened to Michael, beginning with his contract with AEG.
I can’t believe that no one is really looking into the huge blunder made by Shawn Trell (the AEG general counsel) uncovering a dirty game over “signing” that contract. He could not even name the date of signing it! According to one version it was January 26 and according to another version it was January 28. But if the chief lawyer of AEG (who drafted the contract) cannot give the date of signing the document it can very well mean that it was not signed at all! Someone should look into this because this smells of a big fraud and even a crime.
I am afraid AEG will never be embarassed by anything except losing money, but the general public may be embarassed for them and be disgusted by AEG’s hypocrisy, lies and fraud in every word they say and every step they take.
Right. And the contract itself? I hope the jury will pay proper attention to 1) Murray’s responsibility to perform services requested of him by the Producer 2) a chance to perform services requested by the Artist from time to time only and 3) the termination clause where only AEG could fire Murray, even if Michael didn’t like him. Michael could not dismiss Murray on his own!
MONEY. And the Gospel says that you cannot serve two masters. Anschutz made his choice and it wasn’t in favor of God.
Oh, this is the worst part of it. It was very easy and this is what makes it so sad.
By the way when people are so terribly blinded by money as Anschutz and the rest of them are, they lose the tremendous chances life offers them. If they had given Michael a helping hand the fate of every participant in this tragedy would have been different – Michael would have survived, AEG would have had more time to prepare the show while Michael was recuperating, the concerts would have taken place, and AEG would have enjoyed great fame and success forever after (instead of sweating now on the stand).
But all this only in case they had taken an ethical decision, which they did not. Ethics pay back and give huge dividends, and on the example of AEG we can see it very well.
They thought they were smart, but all their “smartness” has given them is shame for centuries to come. Now AEG and Michael’s death are tied inseparably together, and in the future no one will remember anything of AEG except that they were the ones who drove Michael Jackson to his death. AEG is a sort of contemporary Pontius Pilate who by the way ended his life by suicide.
AEG is a promoter and not a producer of shows. They were covering up for their incompetence and lack of producers’ skills by pressuring Michael and shifting all the blame for their own inefficiency onto him. Michael was in a stress also because he realized that nothing was ready – we can see it even by the This is it film. The robot from which Michael was to step out in the opening scene was not ready either 2 weeks before the show or ever at all.
Yes, it is. This industry will never be the same.
Oh, Katherine Jackson is a marvellous woman. The epitome of strength, fearlessness and everything a true mother should be. The enormous strength of love. And of course she will not be intimidated by WR – but what about Michael’s children???
If AEG loses I think WR disappear too. WR is their project same as all those recent smear campaigns in British tabloids. These people are cowards and have respect only for those who have the power. The moment the powerful are shattered on their pedestals those who previously supported them or depended on them miraculously vanish.
As to Thomas Mesereau he is a criminal lawyer, and cannot handle a civil case, I think. But he can be a witness!
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Oh my, this guy in the video discussion, who praises Putnam to the skies, regards himself as a “legal expert” I guess, but he disregards all evidence in his analysis – no word about all these emails and impeachments and “I don’t remember” lies. He is totally biased and probably didn’t follow the trial closely.
But I want to say that I agree with Sina: Though the case was limited to the negligent hiring of Murray, we heard a lot more about what happened behind the scenes. When I first heard in spring that the judge reduced the case to Murray’s hiring, I was discouraged and feared we won’t learn anything about MJ’s real problems and treatment by AEG, but Panish revealed a lot of it and made it public. – Though of course there are still many open questions. But we heard more than I expected at that time.
It also attracted my attention when Phillips said he doesn’t like music, only the deal, and I’m glad Panish used it again in his rebuttal. It was one of several statements of the AEG executives themselves that proved their based on money-attitude.
Another one was when one of them (I don’t remember if it was also Phillips or Gongaware) answered several times YES when he was asked if he regarded Murray a competent doctor because he requested a high salary – meaning the more money someone wants, the higher is his competence … yes, of course….
As Sina says, it is absolutely necessary to set a precedence for the entertainment industry the same way the Murray trial was a precendence for the medical world. I hope the jury can see this. If this happens, Michael’s death was not in vain. He finally would have reached another one of his goals. We must pray for it.
Thanks to Helena for struggling through her own pain and ailments, but not giving up for Michael (please take care and give your bones time to heal) and thanks to everybody for your input. It’s a great community here with many helpful supporters.
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Hi Sina,
Thank you for your kind words! I hope that justice is done and Mrs Jackson and the children win this case!
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Thanks Jolie! I hope that all our endeavours are rewarded with Mrs Jackson winning this trial!
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Thanks Helena for your kind words! What I have done is only a miniscule- he deserved so much more in his life ! You and those who work so tirelessly in trying to vindicate MJ are an inspiration. Thank you again for providing this wonderful platform for vindicating Michael.
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Helena, Team Michael , Suparna, Jolie, Susan and everyone who contributed to this post , thank you for everything, the footage , the newsarticles, the transcipts of Panishs closing.
It is fascinating to watch Panishs and the transcripts come in very handy.
I like that he didn’t put up a spectacular show but simply stated what was important AND proven, and what were attempts to deflect from the real issue. Despite the limited scope of the case, Panish succeeded to show the behind the scene working of AEG . The way they treated Michael was not just inappropriate it was criminal. Cheating Michael with his contract, his earnings, his schedule , 50 shows not agreed to, empty promises to invest in his film ambition, with Murrays contract and in general their disrespect for the artist(freak, Mickey , talking fluff) and the man is a mentality that they still see nothing wrong with and some even dare call it business as usual.
I loved how Panish debunked one of their statements that RP is in the business because he loves music. In his own words, he doesn’t give a damn about music or the artist.
I hope that when they look back they feel embarrassed for the dirt they threw at him in court and in the media. Quite the opposite of how they praised him when they wanted him to sing and dance for them. Even then they were cheating and mocking him behind his back as the emails revealed.
They could not come up with a single piece of evidence that Michael had anything to do with the written or oral contract they made with CM. Same as it was with the production crew working for his show under AEG terms ,whether he recommended them or not.
Anschutz they say is a religious man. but the people who run his company couldn’t have conducted themself the way they did if it was not for his leadership. Makes me wonder who or what he worships.
I still get angry when I think how easy Michael could have been saved if these bastards had one single bone of consideration in them.
AEG may not lose a single gig as the music and entertainment business are still owned by promoters and NOT by artists, but no artist will ever again take AEGs word for granted when signing up with them. If they could dupe THE Michael Jackson, what about D list artists. I wish artists who worked with them will check their contract if they too were not duped.
And never again will a promoter put an artist in a situation like they did Michael. His back against the wall, under heavy stress and fear of ending up without his catalog . They physically forced him to perform (slapping and shouting) put pressure on the doctor when everyone could see and warned that something was wrong.
I hope the jury will see the importance to set a precedence for the entertainment industry and protect artist against exploitation as they did for doctors, with Murrays conviction.
That is the big win of the case. AEG will forever be linked to Michaels death.
With the trial coming to an end, I thank everyone who worked so hard to update us straight from the courthouse .for the transcripts and your analyses of the case. My best wishes go to Taaj from Team Jackson , for a speedy recovery. The same goes for you Helena, take care of yourself
I saw Mr Mesereau in court during Panishs finals , I thank him and mrs Yu for for their loyalty and continuing support of Michael and his family.
I thank Karen Faye for standing by Michael and speaking up for him when everyone else was intimidated by AEGs threats . Its a comfort that in his last days he knew that at least there was one person in his camp who spoke up for him.
Most of all I thank Mrs katherine Jackson and Michaels children for not being intimidated by AEGs army of lawyers and their harsh words about her and her son, nor by the public opinion. For me she is already a winner for standing up for her son and revealing what her son was up against in his last days, damages granted or not.
There is another case coming and again they will try to drag Michaels through the mud.
But if the big AEG could not scare her, then a loser like Wade Robson will not shake her.
If an 82 year old woman can fight a giant like AEG, then definitely the estate lawyers can fight WR. If I were them I would call TMez, to be on the safe side.
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“Thanks so much for your appreciation! Glad that you liked it!” – Suparna
Of course I liked it, how could you doubt it? I’ve now placed it in the post breaking it down per minute for easier reference.
Thank you very much again! We are doing it for Michael. If he could only see he would be happy and amazed to see so much selfless work done for his sake. He was absolutely not used to it – everyone always wanted something of him. And now we are making up for it and doing what he absolutely deserved to get when he was alive (but never received).
God bless you, dear.
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Thank you Suparna. Thank you Helena. Thank you to everyone on this blog for contributing to vindicating Michael. We are all chipping away at this monolith of deception and lies surrounding Michael. Chipping away with the tool of Truth.
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Hi Helena,
Thanks so much for your appreciation! Glad that you liked it! I was only happy to have been able to contribute to what you do so well. 🙂
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“This is my first ever attempt at this so please pardon any flaws! I have started transcribing from 30 minutes onwards till before when the judge announces the break. I have written it out in paragraphs- which I will break up to prevent monotony.” – Suparna
Oh, Suparna, you’ve really transcribed it, up to the every single word! (While I singled out only the most important sentences and those which I could understand). Fantastic work, thank you very much.
Now I will try to bridge the gap between 16:50 and your piece starting at 30:00 as quickly as I can and then post them together.
Thank you so much – you’ve done a very accurate job!
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Hi Helena,
Thanks. Yes I did not imagine that I would get to transcribe a part of the court proceedings in this trial!
This is my first ever attempt at this so please pardon any flaws! I have started transcribing from 30 minutes onwards till before when the judge announces the break. I have written it out in paragraphs- which I will break up to prevent monotony. So here it is :
Panish’s Rebuttal Video in the AEG Closing Arguments
30 : 00 How about this? Another thing I want to talk about- This is from Randy-, (Karen Faye.’s email to Randy Phillips) : “ Hi Randy,
I don’t know who the video crew was at rehearsals but I saw them shooting Michael at his worst on the day he was shuffling and wrapped in a blanket. I told Kenny to make sure that they didn’t / wouldn’t shoot him like that. Be sure he wasn’t aware they were shooting him and would be careful in the futureand it is disconcerting that the footage exists.“ Panish : Karen Faye wanted Michael to look good. She wasn’t trying to prepare for a lawsuit . And what does Kenny say what does Randy Phillips say? “We control all the footage and it is locked in a vault at Staples Centre. Did he say no no we are going to do an accurate depiction we are going to show him wrapped in blankets when he wasn’t doing good? Did he say that ? No. This is- we control it all and its locked in a vault. There it is- we control all it is locked in a vault. Does that sound like people that are trying to bring you the whole truth? AEG- “ We want the whole truth we are not afraid of the truth “. Ok actions speak a lot louder. The footage didn’t make it in the movie. Michael doesn’t look good in the movie anyway! But they wanna think you are going to buy that. Then I asked Philips – “ Did Michael ever perform the whole show? Randy Phillips : No. Panish : He never saw all the show’s dance? Randy Phillips : “No he would’nt have”. Panish : They were’nt ready for that so by the time he died we could have 2 weeks to go London. He wasn’t even ready to go through the show but they kept pushing forward and pushing forward . Then Mr eh AEG Lawyer said yesterday regarding supervision they aren’t supervisors. You heard from Mr. Trell and Miss Young that independent conractors are uncertified as supervisors and plaintiffs didn’t give you any evidence otherwise. OK. That’s the defence. We don’t have to supervise right? But they are saying Mr Trell said that . He says that . OK. They misstate the law continually because here is the law . That’s not true. Here’s the law 401 instruction – A person hiring , supervising , retaining another has a duty to exercise reasonable care . In doing so if a person is negligent, he or she does something that a reasonably careful person would not do in the same situation or fails to do something that a reasonably careful person would do in the same supervise. In this case you are to evaluate if AEG acted negligently . Only an actual plaintiff’s case negligently hired, supervised or retained. That’s a legal duty imposed by the law but they say we don’t do it so we don’t have to follow the law because we are AEG . We don’t have any duty to do that but that’s not what the law says! They are trying to tell you things which just aren’t true. Here’s another one- Mr Panish it is 50 times they say( My mom has never seen me calling miserably she’d call me a lot but not nicely?) but Mr Panish told you yesterday that the figure is 59 million he said that a couple of times that was made up. “ He made it up” Ok I made it up right! I made it up that’s what he told you! You’ll wrote it down not all people – I saw you do that I wanted to jump up ! What could I do? Lets see what the evidence says. Remember that guy Mr Acramen? He paid about Nine hunderd thousand dollars- to who I said ok Mr Ackerman lets get to your figures and I want you to do some calculations. Mr Ackerman “ I do not have my calculator. I can’t do it. I am not ready to do that .” Panish continues – Dr Falusus could do that but he I don’t know I can’t do that I don’t know right well here’s the evidence what he says he made it up. Now I am big I can protect myself that’s not right for the family to be making attacks on the lawyers saying they are making things up in court. Come on. Is that bringing you the whole truth? Here it is exhibit 1960 and there are 3 exhibits of his calculations Twelve million eight hundred and seventy four. Fifty million six hundred and eighteen, fifteen five seventy two , fifteen eight ten. Check it out Check me out on that ok? He (Marvin Putnam) called me a liar. ( Some objection from the defendant’s lawyers Judge : objection) Judge : Is this in evidence? Ok overruled . Panish : Yes it is in evidence. I just made it up poof, poof (exhibit 12960) Panish : And there are 3 of them 153, 160, 157008. Poof I just made it up! Who is bringing you the truth ladies and gentlemen? Ok now I am getting – I have passion.. I am sorry but I am getting .. Its not fair to attack someone- a lawyer that’s been an advocate for a client and say they made it up! It just not true! They will say anything when it is convenient! Ok? Go look at those exhibits you add it up. And You see if I made it up or not ok ? You add it up! I just made it up – poof ! Here it is 59 874. Next – And I say this because I remember all the important things he got wrong here yesterday Mr Keenig;s no.s from AEG he didn’t another attack and you’ll wrote it down not everybody People wrote that down right ok what is the truth Here it is right here AEG live did the projections: $108 a ticket- Mr Irk – $108 a ticket, 1.6 shows per weeks and here is the testimony : Briggs testimony – 1.6 shows both of them attendance – 55,000 for Briggs 49,000 for Irk. These figures AEG Ok? I am going to talk about that for a minute here. They say oh oh he was never going to do a world tour! On the one hand they say but then they wanna say that he is going to do a 10 year world tour – first of all this is not 10 year world tour but 37 months OK? So that’s another mistake but if Michael Jackson had proper care .. remember he was fine when they met him. He did the physical they may- he was doing fine till the pressure started creeping in on him and he couldn’t sleep and Dr Murray broke his oath because of the conflict. I have explained that to you. But if he had proper treatment- if Dr Murray got a sleep doctor – proper treatment , he’d been fine because AEG had this all planned out . They didn’t just want the O2. They were thinking big- the biggest! They wanted to make money . They are a money making machine. Mr Phillips said we had a 4 year plan. There were all those emails. He denied it I had to bring up the emails to show him but now when it is convenient oh : “He would have died or they made it all up 1.5 billion – they made it all up.” This is their figures Mr Gongaware “ 5547…Its going to be multi city tour” Paris Jackson “ My daddy told me we are going around the world “. So did everybody make that up ? Or just me ? Or Just Mr. or Mr Phillip ? Or Mr Gongaware ? Or Mr Putnam? Because then I asked Miss Jorrie- Did you miss Jorrie tell the LA Police dept you and Mr Putnam – that London was just the beginning and there was going to be a world tour remember that? She said absolutely not and here assures that lawyers testimony –“ I never told that to the officer “ . So I brought him in Detective Smith . Ad what what did he say ? Let’s look at this. Let’ s start with the statement that you wrote down on the official LA Police dept form Ok Panish to detective Smith : “ Why don’t you read it to us? Just about the world tour ?” Ms Jorrie and Mr Putnam stated that this was only the beginning . MJ was to do a world tour that would last 2 to 3 years . Panish’s question to Detective Smith : ” Did you actually write that down ? Detective Smith : “ Yes I did.” So was Ms Jorrie Mr Putnam not telling the truth to the LA Police Dept and official investigation or was Ms Jorrie not telling the truth when she came to court ? The person who was first paid off 7 million dollars – what motive would detective Smith have to make that up? And why would he have it not only in his official police report but in his hand written notes which he saved and usually they don’t save it . He saved his hand written notes and wrote exactly that down. They (AEG) will tell you what’s convenient when it serves their purposes. And who is really bringing you the whole truth? And then they went on and said “ Did you describe those notes in the report- “Yes I did” And tell us exactly what to transcribe so at first you wrote on the notes and then he wrote on the police reports Mr Putnam and Ms Jorrie stated Eurpoean tour was just the beginning and that Michael Jackson was going to do a world tour that would last 2 to 3 years. So did we just make that up? Did we just make that up? Or was Mr Putnam and Ms Jorrie making it up to the police department?
340 million in economic and non economic damages and you know one thing -they didn’t dispute in this case? He (Marvin Putnam) didn’t say that was unreasonable He gave the figures and you know why ? Because he knows that in a wrongful death for the evidence in this case they have attacked everything we said in this case but they know that is not unreasonable for the relationship. They know it is not unreasonable. They have attacked everything except for two things : that and question 4 which I will get to which they skipped as they have to conceal it. I have to get to it. Everything else from the beginning of the trial till today still the objections they are fighting . But they didn’ fight that because they know that is a fair and just verdict for these three children and for Mrs Jackson and for what they lost . OK ? I said I invite Mr Putnam to get up and give a different figure . If he thinks this is unreasonable remember that? And certainly he said a lot of – he said my name 50 times and certainly he attacked me on a lot of things be he didn’t attack on this. 35 million in the past, 50 million in future for the children. 35 Million in the past for Mrs Jackson and similar number in the future ok ? That’s the figures. Because they know that’s reasonable. Not contest now. The 5 questions- they said that there are only they said 5 or four of them but let me go through them for you quickly Its hot up here phew alright lts take a while a break (?) actual electrolyte alright .You know one society when you go buy something – everybody’s bought some assets- you buy a car you know assets you could buy a house you could buy something asset and when you buy something you can’t go back and say hey there was this problem there was that problem and when AEG – they knew everything about Michael Jackson . They say we didn’t know – they knew – they knew what issues he had, they knew what his age was . Mr Gongaware worked with him before. But now when they come into the court and they are supposed to pay full justice they don’t want to pay it. Hey Hey wait a minute this guy was damaged this guy he- he was 50 yrs old he couldn’t do this he took Demerol he did this .. Now when it is time to make up for justice they they don’t want it they don’t want to pay it. Why? Why is it ?
Alright. Lets talk about the questions. You heard a lot about it . First AEG hired doctor Murray. I heard so much yesterday- who paid doctor Murray , who chose doctor Murray , who is doctor Murray’s personal doctor right? All that , who asked for doctor Murray? Is that question on the verdict form? Who chose doctor Murray? Is that the question you have to answer? Did I miss it ? They hired Doc Murray. Let me tell you how . Was he unfit? Yes . Do they know or should have known that he was unfit and put others at risk of harm ? Yes, Did the did skip point form as they could see that the substantial factor causing death. Yes I want to explain why to you.
And this one- they did not even contest it . They conceded it believe it or not because how could you say that doctor Murray did not harm Michael Jackson? It’s a little tough even though they fight everything else now. In considering whether question one – whether they hired or didn’t hire, AEG or Michael or both could have hired doctor Murray. OK? Both. They keep saying Michael chose him Michael – it was his doctor. Michael, Prince gave him some 100 dollar bills You know why he (Prince) gave him (Conrad Murray) some $100 dollar bills? Because AEG was stiff and they did not want to pay him and I am going to show you that but the question is who hired him ? And it can be Michael , AEG, both and that’s what happened. I believe Michael requested him. And they say “Oh oh he never consented he never consented”. I thought they- but then they say on the other hand they requested Murray but he never consented! He requested Murray but he never agreed. What is it? Randy Phillips admitted, Tim Woolley admitted it and Mr Gongaware admitted it. I am going to show you how . Those three facts . The CEO admitted it . There his assistant admitted it and the CEO of Concert West admitted it ok? But we can’t rely on that. Ok? This question is not there Whose personal doctor was he, who insisted it . Did Murray hire.. who selected and chose Murray . That’s not the question that any how that’s a lawyer’s defence technical and show contracts and all artists.. that is not the question OK ? He was Michael’s personal doctor. Did Michael insist that they should hire Murray? Yeah. Ok? Great. Did he choose or select? Yeah. But they didn’t have to hire him because they could have said “No we are nor not going to hire him.” But none of the questions are on the verdict form. You don’t have to answer those questions. You have to answer- Did AEG and Michael hire doctor Murray? (Randy Phillip’s video starts) : “We just felt that this is his personal doctor . He wants him 24/7 . And the guy is willing to leave his practice for a very large sum of money so we hired him. Video stops.”
Panish : Can we not rely on the CEO saying something? Mr Putnam says yeah believe that OK? I mean here we are hours and days on that issue they are trying to tell you that the sky is not blue. They are trying to sell ice to people at Alaska ! Come on. I mean if you are going to fall for that you know I think you are going to disregard all the evidence. How can you say he never came and said that we didn’t hire him either. You know that? He never said “Oh we never hired Murray” . I was mistaken because they have no prompt coming in – that contract was mistaken, that was mistaken, that was mistaken. He never said I was mistaken when I gave a world wide interview within days of Michael’s death, he never said that. Mr Trell never came in and said that. They didn’t show you the whole clause of this contract. He can end the contract it is pretty simple we don’t need to go any further but just that everybody here believes.. all the people here think that I responded . This is what he said- “Oh Michael is responsible ”. This is in the MJ contract Jan 28th ‘In the event that shall artisco be responsible for any claims of writing out or related to the negligence of wilful conduct of any promoter related indemnities- promoter breach of this.’ Now why would Mr Gongaware on June 14th on this exhibit tell them to remind Dr Murray who he is working for and who is paying him and the standard that is expected of him if they hadn’t hired him. Do you go around Does your boss go around and tell your neighbour “ Hey remember what is expected of you. Hey we are paying your salary “. Do they do that? Does somebody- do you go about telling people who don’t work with you what to do other than your kids and your spouse? But you don’t remember who is paying, remember who is responsible? If you did not hire somebody ? Conrad Murray thought that he was hired because on June 28th after receiving those emails- He did not show you this: “ My contract is taking a little more time “ The written contract remember in the entertainment business they are doing all these contracts. Ortega, Payne, Faye – all these people. If they had to wait so that everyone had a written contract, then nothing would ever get done.
So they make an agreement orally and then they put it in writing but that does not mean you did not hire someone or you didn‘t make an agreement. They want to get all these technical Michael didn’t sign where he had to sign – “Oh Michael didn’t do this, Michael insisted on that.” I mean Come on ! He doesn’t have to sign for the oral or apply for that contract. So Dr Murray says “I performed and continue to fulfil my services good to the client in good faith therefore I am asking you to deposit my fee for May and the rest falls upon you in good faith as per our agreement.” Panish : “ Per our agreement “ Agreement, contract. For the instruction says, that’s what Murray says – right there exhibit 232 May 28th and not only does he say that he goes on to say the customary date which they had agreed to prior which we will see, the 15th of each month .” By today’s date we are 13 days beyond receipt of my monthly fee. Deposit my fee in May as per our agreement.”
Did Mr Woolley write back “We have got no agreement we are not paying you Murray , you are not working for us we didn’t hire you Murray.” Mr Gongaware – did he write and say “ What is expected of you Murray we are not paying you Murray “ But not really. No. They knew there was agreement . They hired Murray. With or with out Michael. It is clear. The intent of the parties. There is an agreement and they owed the money but then they wanted to stall Murray and you saw those emails more stalling games by AEG. Now this is more of the contract which I have right here. This is exhibit 160. If there is written agreement it supercedes any prior agreements or understanding oral or written . Para 18 . So yeah when there is a written contract you can get paid. But doesn’t mean you did not hire someone and this shows that everyone knew that there were written oh (Panish’s error which he realised now) Oral contract that was later going to be made to this. And this agreement in fact that the artist’s condition – upon approval or consent of the artist. The written contract but Michael had already said hire him and that’s what they kept saying “Michael said to hire him Michael said to hire him”. Michael didn’t consent to the oracle contract which he doesn’t have to. He (Michael) told him to do it and they did it. And Gongaware wrote “Done deal “ May 6th. And Murray is trying to get paid for his work of May 28th . He has worked for 28 days and of course they do not want to pay. Surprise surprise haan! Here we are again they don’t want to pay. Where there are other provisions in this contract you know where they show you the one with the line crossed out which is not the one signed by Murray “ perform services reasonably requested by the producer”. If you do not hire someone do they perform services for you? Para 7.2 ‘If it is cancelled or postponed anytime for any reason, Murray is out. ‘ But then Mr Putnam told you yesterday Murray didn’t even know that till June 16th when Kathy Jorrie sent him the first draft of the contract remember that he didn’t even know that OK? Not true OK? Murray needs 10 days to wind down his practice consented to the agreement exhibit no. 175 and he was done in 10 days and they said “Oh he was living in California living in California.. “ sure that wasn’t right then how can he wind down his practice? He didn’t have a practice in California. Then it was to be full time and he was full time.
Now question number one- remember AEG does not have to hire Murray alone it can be Michael and AEG. I believe that the other supports answered yes to the question one. We spend way too much time on it when the CEO of the company admits something that we have to still debate it. And that’s kind of the way the whole case has been. Whatever they admit they deny deny deny and hope somebody will go for it, That’s what it is. That’s what they are doing . Alright. And again as it told you the verdict form will say who chose selected recommended paid Murray – that was not the question so please focus on the question. They hired him. Alright. Now question 2 . Was Murray unfit or incompetent for the job he was hired to do? Why was he unfit and I wrote down the 3 what I think are the key points here. For question number 2 No.1 The point is its not when they hire him only, it’s the entire time. OK? They want to focus on when they hired him but it is the entire time and then they want to focus on Michael. They say we want to focus on Michael Jackson and not Murray but if MJ is Murray’s patient and how MJ is doing is not well does it not raise a red flag about the physician who is supposed to be there 24/7? Ok think about it. So it is any time not the just the time they hired him . They do not have to negligently hire Murray. All they got to do is just to hire him. Then he needed sleep and pain and drug dependency treatment or oversight or management –whatever you want to call it . And then as early as May they created that conflict of interest and really when you boil it all down the conflict of interest is what caused it all. Because of Murrays financial condition they could pull the plug on Murray. They brought in Murray because they knew they needed Murray. And they brought Murray in to keep Michael going and now they want to act like nothing happened. The train is going down the road they are seeing these signs and what do they do- they stop the train to see what is going on they put more coal in to keep moving straight ahead. OK? Right here.
Number 2. Incompetent conflict they were pressuring Murray and they pushed back remember when Kenny Ortega and Bugzee these people are saying “Hey we have got all these problems , we got all these problems “ – Do they go find out what is wrong with MJ -? Do they go do that? No they never found out what is wrong because they did not want to know. They did not want to know. They didn’t do any thing to look into it Would a reasonably careful person that’s retaining and supervising a doctor the patient of the doctor is doing terrible would they ask the doctor what is wrong with the patient ? May be ? What do you think? But they should have never been even involved ! Why are they getting involved in MJ’s health care? Why are they drafting a written contract that MJ never saw or asked for? Because they want to control it all. They want control. Why would they do that? No one in the history has ever done that. Why would they do that? Think about it. Why would they draft a written contract for MJ ‘ alleged doctor that he chose and selected? Why ? Because they wanted to be able to control doctor Murray and get whatever they wanted and get Michael because 1.) They had no insurance if Michael didn’t make it they could be out $35 million remember they could not get sickness insurance. Cancellation insurance is only 17.5 million and they were double that. And when you are in a money making business you are not in a money losing business . They were protecting as Mr Philips says they do, the financial interests of the corporation. That’s why. They wanted control of doctor Murray. And that’s why they wanted a written contract that raised the conflict . Now number one , remember the March – The press conference where Mr Philips says that Michael is “an emotionally paralysed mess riddled with self loathing”; he got to slap him and put him in the shower he is worried. And he says prescription he is talking about the drugs or usage of insomnia and pain management, but instead there is a cardiologist to treat heart problems and ailments like the flu and the cold which he doesn’t have. So why would they do that? He was incompetent – there was no question. Now this is remember I said Mr AEG yesterday told you that doctor Murray never knew that the contract could be cancelled anytime before June 14th remember that ? That doc tor Murray never knew !
Well on May 8th exhibit 177 it states ( Judge- Mr Panish 5 minutes before the break. Panish : Thank you your honour ) AEG contract will not cover more than 1 month in lieu of notice if there is a curtailment or cessation of the tour, So how could they come here and tell you that he didn’t know this till june 14th when he is getting an email on May 8th ? How can they say that? Who is bringing you the truth? Is that the whole truth? Take a look at that exhibit 177 All the terms and fees Murray wants to get paid “per our agreement” , Gongaware was trying to tell him what to do but they didn’t hire him and he is no good. Next question- May be This is a good time your honour and this is a long one . Judge Come back at 11:15. Katherine Jackson Vs AEG Live BC445597 One thing Mr Panish we will go into the noon hour in a little bit so you can finish and when you come back we will do the concluding instructions . So you take into the noon hour to finish. OK. Panish- He will need another hour and said tells the judge “…Appreciate your attention.”
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Suparna, oh you’ve already done it? Thanks a lot! Yes sure, please post your transcript right here in the comments or send it to me via Contact me and I will include it in the post. There will be a gap because I haven’t yet done my part (lol) but it does not matter as it will still give the idea to others of what Mr. Panish talked about.
This is the usual way all of us got involved in it. You don’t expect you will do it until some urgency draws you into the process. I never knew I would go that far when I wrote my first sentence in the michaeljackson.com forum four years ago. All I thought of at the time was that I would simply leave a comment. 🙂
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Hi Helena, you are very welcome! The pleasure is all mine! To let you know that I have been working on the transcript the whole day today, and have been able to cover from 30 mins to the first part of Panish’s rebuttal till before the break. And then another 8 minutes after the break. I was still working on and tidying them before I could send them to you and have some left still! Great to know that teammichael Jackson will be updating that soon. Would you like for me to send you the bit that I have worked on so far ? I have been able to write in paragraphs. Hope that is fine with you. I have never transcribed anything else prior to this. 🙂
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“HI Helena and Julie, Sorry to be offering this so late- do you want me to help you transcribe Panish’s video or have you done it already? Please advise if you still need any help with it. Thanks.” – Suparna
Suparna, thank you very much for your offer. I’ve already sent a message to Julie cancelling my request because TeamMichaelJackson is so quick that they already posted the transcript of Mr. Panish’s closing arguments on September 24! Hopefully it will not take long to post the rebuttal as well.
The first piece is here: http://ru.scribd.com/doc/171813706/Transcripts-September-24th-2013-JACKSON-VS-AEG-CLOSING-ARGUMENTS-DAY-1-Brian-Panish . I will embed it now into the respective post.
Thank you and Julie for your generous and selfless offer. Your desire to help Michael is all that matters!
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One more article with a telling headline:
Please leave your comment or like/unlike the replies which are already there – make your voice heard by others this way!
I think this one is superb:
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“Interesting video discussion of Putnam & Panish’s closing arguments & rebuttal – for the first 16 minutes only:
AND the last comment, in the above discussion, leads to” – Jolie
Yes Jolie, and it also led to another article (in the Telegraph this time) from which I finally got the corect transcript of Panish’s words said at around 16:50 of his closing speech:
“It’s not right, ladies and gentlemen,” Panish said. “It would not be right to allow Gongaware and Phillips to skate down the street and click their champagne glasses at AEG Live.”
Indeed, the main thing is not to allow these people to get away with what they did and proceed in the same manner. The main thing is for AEG and the whole industry to reassess values and start placing human life above money.
Because all AEG had to do to help Michael make those concerts was listening to his wishes as regards the schedule and sell only 10 with longer breaks between the shows. After doing those 10 Michael himself could have agreed to do much more, only at a normal schedule of course.
And even when they set 50 shows for Michael it was not yet too late to make corrections. When AEG saw that their negligence for Michael’s wishes drove him into a tremendous stress and his health began deteriorating they could have given him medical help, postponed the shows and rescheduled them. The concerts would have taken place after that as it was a matter of principle for Michael himself, and they would have beem a tremendous success and AEG would have made all the money they wanted to.
In both variants it would have been a human (and not money) oriented strategy, but because it is human it does not mean that it should be less lucrative.
Here is the article from the Telegraph:
[no comment yet]
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Interesting video discussion of Putnam & Panish’s closing arguments &:
AND
the last comment, in the above discussion, leads to the subject of the following Reuters article, about the verdict shaking up the entertainment model:
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/09/26/people-michaeljackson-idINDEE98P0F620130926
AND
Michael addressed the above in his 2002 “Killer Thriller” Speech in London:
God works in mysterious ways…Michael’s tragic death could bring change in the way the music industry treats its biggest stars. That is what Michael wanted.
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Once again the media does not know the significance of what’s being said by Panish or what’s going on the courtroom period. How arrogant is AEG that they feel they don’t have to explain themselves or apologize despite the emails and documentation? They are at fault too for Michael’s death and they sit over there and treat this like a joke.
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AEG attorneys have shown other inappropriate behaviours like laughing.They have a mega amount of staff.It would not surprise me if they have on purpuse some attractive female attorney whose task is to establish a flirtatious contact with the male foreperson..As this man has been chosen to be the jury he has some power with the jyry too.Keep your eyes open.
In general I have a feeling this judge is not totally unbiased.And let me know which are the the forepersons duties.He may have some organizing qualities in this marathon trial.And this may have led him to be chosen as to be the foreperson.Don´t forget that this trail started with the ridiculous memory losses of AEG officials.Something no ordinary person could believe in
It should be absolutely forbidden for an attorney to flirt with a member of the jury..or attempt to establish any personal contact with a jury member.
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HI Helena and Julie,
Sorry to be offering this so late- do you want me to help you transcribe Panish’s video or have you done it already? Please advise if you still need any help with it. Thanks.
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Lena, please specify how you think ‘some fans continue to provide the tabloid hacks with a platform to degrade MJ’?
And am I right to think that you are finding fault with fans for the trial opening the door to the disgusting offenders (I hope you mean AEG)?
As Thomas Meseareu correctly said Michael’s mother had the absolute right to sue AEG and hope to find out this way what AEG had done to her son. This goal was fulfilled to a minimal degree only as AEG did their best to hide all the evidence able to tell the true story of what happened. But they still left a lot of traces and these traces will allow us to restore the whole picture in the future.
As to the AEG offenders all the fault for offending Michael should rest with them and not anyone else. It is their choice and if AEG had nothing else to say in their defense but drag Michael through the mud so much the worse for AEG.
Over here I absolutely agree and that is why I repost some of their articles in this blog so that no one has to go to those sources and support them by their clicks. However knowing what Michael’s detractors say and finding out their true worth is a must – same as it is a must to learn how to tell the truth from lies.
When will we learn? Only when the whole truth is finally told. And leaving Michael’s haters on their own is not the way. Michael’s fans left his haters unchallenged for too long a time.
When four years ago I first asked Michael’s fans why they were not looking into haters’ lies and refuting them, they answered me that they were above that dirt, never believed it and didn’t even want to look as all of it was a lie anyway.
Their feelings I could perfectly understand, but on the other hand this allowed Michael’s haters to get away with absolutely anything and arrange a feast of hate against Jackson all over the media. Nobody was disputing their lies for the simple reason that no fans ever even tried to. All the fans were asking for (if they did go to the media venues) was leaving Michael alone, but this naturally never worked.
Since my approach is different initially I was the only one who did look into those dreadful allegations, found facts exonerating Michael and never hesitated to post them in all the media sources available to me – as replies to their hate-filled articles, on every kind of forum I could speak on and at every chance that presented itself.
Fortunately these efforts were supported by some other bloggers who also plunged themselves into the dirt about Jackson, were amazed by how flimsy those lies were and started spreading the word of truth about Michael’s innocence.
What venues did we have for it? Very few. Just our blogs, Youtube videos and comments in the media, but even these small opportunities gave us some platform for challenging Michael’s haters. So should we mount on a high horse now and refuse even the little chance we have? Absolutely not.
My opinion is that as long as the media publishes our answers to them we should use their venues. However if they start discriminating us by filtering our comments and blocking us, this media resource is no longer worth going to and should be probably even rated as a place where the innocent truth about Michael Jackson is not tolerated and where freedom of speech – at least as regards Michael – is not working.
As you know I am a little handicapped at the moment, so if some of you go to HLN, try to leave a comment there providing real facts about MJ, and if it is not posted there due to their discriminatory policies, please make a screenshot of your reply and we will post it here, so that more people know what kind of “freedom of speech” is practiced by these media sources.
It is only when people get informed about the way the media manipulates people is when they will really learn. And if the media gives you a chance to speak up take it! In the long run spreading the truth about Michael is all that matters.
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“Yes, Helena. Give me a section to transcribe and I will do it” – Julie
Julie, thank you very much for the offer. I haven’t watched the full video yet, so don’t know which parts are crucial. Also the full transcript of it will be hopefully available to us one day due to the heroic efforts of TeamMichaelJackson, so now it would be worth transcribing only the most meaningful parts of it. I actually started the job for those who don’t understand spoken English, so that the are able to translate it into their languages and understand it now (and not when the verdict is in).
I am planning to do the next 15 minutes or so, so if you pick up from 30:00 it will be great. The length of how much you do is totally up to you. I suggest you pick up the most meaningful points and the rest can be inserted later (if we want to) in-between the parts already done.
Thank you very much for your help!
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As regards the jurors and the film This is it which Putnam urged the jury to see (and Panish didn’t want to) I have distressing news from ABC. The jurors not only want to see the film but they selected as their foreman juror No.6 with whom one AEG female attorney openly flirted in court and was noticed to have a constant eye contact with!
ABC7 Court News says:
Here’s our story on the jurors, who they are, what they do. http://abc7.la/1awHrYi
Watch @ABC7 and http://www.abc7.com for our story on who the jurors are in this case. We’ll post the link as soon as we have it.
We’ll be here to bring you all the details of verdict watch. Other than the 2 notes sent earlier, nothing else requested.
One of the jurors requested next Monday off. So deliberation resumes on Tuesday at 9:30 am PT.
Jury has gone home for the day. NO VERDICT yet. They deliberated for 4 hours and a half today. Total of 6 and a half hours so far.
The story on the jurors they referred to is here:
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Susanne, interesting information. Colony Capital bought the “distressed property’ as usual. Here is an article about Miramax being sold (and the author’s impressions of MJ in This is it film):
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Yes, Helena. Give me a section to transcribe and I will do it. jesuis125@hotmail.com
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Interesting tweet among Karen Faye’s tweets:
TheMJAP @TheMJAP 4h
@wingheart Just want to add to this that Colony Capital purchased Miramax films whose head of PR claimed Roger Friedman was in their pocket.
Retweetet von Karen Faye
https://twitter.com/TheMJAP/status/383627713681960960
Because Miramax Films is also a company where Marvin Putnam’s wife was president of production (according to Jeff Gottlieb’s article).
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Karen Faye’s Twitter
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“I hope you are doing well. I am very grateful that you are still able to weigh in on the recent closing arguments, since I believe that you are still recuperating.” -Jolie
I still have a cast on both of my arms and it is only the fingers that move. The cast will be taken off in no less than three weeks as my left arm was not only broken but was twisted too and somehow tends to revolve in an unnatural way. By the way Taaj of TeamMichaelJackson is in much pain now too as she had a major surgery on her spine and must be in an even worse condition than I am.
It seems that the hatred of Michael’s haters is so big that its accumulated energy is ready to do away with Michael’s supporters even physically. In our literature the name for this accumulated energy of people embraced by hate, love or idea is egregor: “When a certain number of people come together around an idea, their thoughts and desires alone create a living reality. This is a law of the spiritual world.” So Hate like Love is material and it is the amount of each and their balance that decides it all. Please pray for Taaj.
“fyi…Karen Faye is tweeting this morning. Since she was an insider, close to Michael for many years, what she has to say is significant.”
Absolutely. What does she say? Could you give us a link to her tweets, please?
“I pray for the jury. ABC7courts is tweeting as well about the jury’s requests…”
This is what ABC says:
Let us indeed pray for the jury so that they are guided by God and the spirit of truth and love.
“I just want to say that being interested in this trial all started for me when I studied your analysis of Michael’s contract with AEG. My head is STILL spinning from how that contracts reads.”
Oh, the contract between AEG and Michael is a monument of shame AEG erected for themselves with their own hands. The worst document I have ever seen. There is not a single point in that contract that would be in Michael’s favor. It is totally one-sided and I have a strong suspicion that it is a cut-and-paste job. In fact the AEG own general counsel could not state clearly even the date when the contract was signed. On the one hand it is January 26 but on the other hand the email about meeting the “freak” (for signing the contract) is dated January 28.
I think that the AEG contract and everything around it provide good material for a criminal investigation.
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Hi Helena,
I hope you are doing well. I am very grateful that you are still able to weigh in on the recent closing arguments, since I believe that you are still recuperating. Please continue to take care of yourself.
fyi…Karen Faye is tweeting this morning. Since she was an insider, close to Michael for many years, and on the scene with Michael (just look at all the video with her in the background all those years), what she has to say is significant. It causes my heart to bleed some more for Michael though. I pray for the jury (ABC7courts is tweeting as well about the jury’s requests…)
I just want to say that being interested in this trial all started for me when I studied your analysis of Michael’s contract with AEG. My head is STILL spinning from how that contracts reads. Blatant Conflict of Interest between AEG and Michael’s so-called “representatives”.
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Now that TeamMichaelJackson has posted the full video of Mr. Panish’s rebuttal speech I started listening to it and like it so much that began transcribing it. As regards the equipment I don’t remember but even without that mr. Panish’s arguments are very good. Just what the jury needed, in my opinion.
The video was added to the post:
If anyone is ready to help me with transcribing at least part of it, please do – I’ve done the first 16 minutes only and partially only:
3:42 Before you point the finger you’ve got to look in the mirror at yourself. AEG looks in the mirror at themselves and they say “Everything we did is fine”. And they want you to believe Mr. Gongaware’s and Mr. Phillips’ story in this trial… and want you to disregard all the other evidence.
4:04 They did a lot of talk but they never walked the walk. And how do they come here and don’t accept responsibility and put it all on Michael, Mrs. Jackson, Karen Faye, Alif Sankey – everybody but them?
4:34 And responsibility does not stop at the boardroom. Corporate responsibility is supposed to be carried out in our society, in the social order.
5:00 When you are in the money making business there are certain responsibilities imposed on you by the law, and when you get involved in a situation like this you have responsibilities that are not imposed by me the law… and you are responsible, socially and legally, to act appropriately.
5:18 And what the did is that they didn’t act appropriately.
6:00 Let’s talk about some of the things their counsels said yesterday. “All they were trying to do was put on a concert.” They don’t care about Michael Jackson… He admitted it, because it is true. All they are about is putting on a concert deriving the benefit.
6:21 And remember – they got all their money back, made a movie and more. They came up fine!
6:38 AEG is a money making company and they wanted to make money, they wanted Michael to make money. They didn’t want to help Michael do a comeback. They wanted Michael so that they could make money and that’s why they did it.
6:59 Another statement by their counsel: “This case is about choices”. They made their choices. Personal responsibility? But what about corporate responsibility? What about Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware? Where are they? Mt. Trell, their corporate lawyer? Where have they been? Do you really think that they really care about this case? Based on how they testified do you really think that they are worthy of belief in this case?
7:30 Are you going to give them a verdict on the basis of what Mr. Phillips and Mr. Gongaware testified self-serving statements? Are you going to let them get away with this?
7:40 They think that they can come down here, big bad AEG … We have the army of lawyers? And they have rows of lawyers, you’ve seen them all, they are an army – they’ve got the marines, the navy, the airforce, the coast guards, the national guard – they’ve got them all. We had three of them objecting all at the same time!
8:04 Who is going to bring the whole truth to you? Is it AEG? Or do they think they can convince you that it’s all Michael? Michael is a bad person, he took Demerol in 1993 and he did this in 2002, okay? They want you to not like Michael. Is that what this case is all about? That you don’t like Michael? And that he was criminally charged? And that he didn’t have any money and all that?
8:30 What does that have to do with AEG negligently hiring, retaining and supervising Dr. Murray? What does it have to do with it? Nothing.
8:45 Next. I told you at the beginning of the case – it is a case about shared responsibility. We are not running from it. Michael paid the ultimate price. He is not here any more. Sure, he took propofol, but remember, remember – every time he took propofol he didn’t die, until one thing happened. An unfit, an incompetent doctor in a conflict of interest situation did it in an inappropriate setting, okay?
9:20 So he died from propofol from Dr.Murray – there is no question about that. But he’s paid the ultimate price. His family has admitted that he had some responsibility and that’s for you to determine. But they , they accept no responsibility.
9:35 Dr. Murray – we know that he has been held responsible. It’s been determined what he did and he is paying his price, but they want to escape right free, get all their money back, come here and say: “Hey, we know the jury are not going to do that, man. We are AEG Live, we can do this. They are not going to impose liabilities on us. Let’s look at Michael Jackson. Or look at his mom – she wrote a letter to People magazine, she is a terrible person.” That’s what the want you to do.
10:03 They say: “Just answer that question “No” and you could go home. They don’t want you to look at all the evidence, at all of the law after five months. They want you to know “We didn’t hire him”, despite the fact that their CEO said it before there were any lawyers, there were any lawsuits, when he knew that there is no written contract, within days of Michael Jackson’s death – but we are not to believe that and argue to that… So come on.
10:36 I mean they think they can hoodwink you. I mean that’s why we are here. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.
10:43 AEG Live doesn’t want to accept any responsibility. And let’s talk about corporate responsibility – that is just as important as personal responsibility. Today in our society people take responsibility for their acts. How about corporations? Do you think they all are taking responsibility for their acts? Do you think that is happening in today’s society?
11:01 The only way the Jacksons family can be on equal footing with AEG Live is in the jury system. We cannot compete with them – their size, all the people they have. The only way is twelve people fairly picked. Think about it – when you came down here, did you think you would be on the jury to decide this case? No way. Some of you gave up assignments, you’ve missed vacations, you had a change of your whole life. You came down here and said: “Okay, I’m a good citizen, I’m going to do this”. But did you think you signed up for this? Nobody did.
11:40 But today is anyone of you going to get up and leave? No. You know why? Because you believe in the system.
11:45 Even though it cost personal hardship to each and every one of you, and I appreciate that, but this is the only place that is a level playing field where Michael’s mother and children can be on the same level playing field as AEG. This is it.
AEG lawyer’s objection: It is improper to appeal to the size of …
Mt. Panish: Here we go, who is bringing you the truth?
Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish: See? Like I told you.
12:14 Who is bringing you the whole truth? You saw it throughout the trial, how three lawyers were objecting at the same time… you know, come on (shaking his head).
12:40 Objections… They object, they prepare, with the jury consults being every day at the beginning…. This is a scripted performance by AEG Live and they want to get away with it. That’s what it is. And you heard the last witness. I called him and asked him, and he said corporate responsibility and accountability are very important issues in the society today. And they are. It is as personal responsibility, it is important and what, doesn’t it apply to corporations? Corporations are made up of people.
13:06 So what is the truth here, really? The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Remember, we only have to prove this by “more likely than not”, okay?
13:20 This is Mr. [Trell], the AEG Live lawyer. Trust me, there are a lot of emails that they’d rather not been here. “Oh, we just gladly turn them over…” They didn’t gladly turn them over – we got to have a court order to get those emails.
13:33 They were not voluntarily producing anything in this case. You saw how they defended this case… But they want you to believe what Gongaware and Phillips said and not what they wrote in those emails. “There are tens of thousands of emails.” But where are those emails that say something different? That’s another lawyer-created defense. Part of the script and they hope that you go for it.
14:00 I want you – if you could – to write down what I consider the key emails in the case. First is where Dr. Murray is saying that there is an agreement. “Trouble at the front” – you guys, probably know it better than I do with its numerous chains: ”We check everyone out”, “Remind him who is paying him”… I didn’t write these emails. These aren’t my arguments! This is written before there is any lawsuit, before Michael is dead, before the lawyers are involved.
14:43 [Then the email] that Murray and Phillips are in charge of rehearsals. I didn’t do that – they did that. That “Michael is thin and skeletal”, I didn’t write that – they did.
14:55 That he is a “freak” – I love that. Mr. Trell and his other lawyer friend referred to Michael Jackson whom they entered into a multi-million dollar deal with to build up their arena as a “freak”. That’s how they think about him. Did you hear an apology from anyone about that? Did you hear Mr. Trell get up here all the days he’s been here and say “You know what? We really didn’t mean it to say. It’s not a nice thing”. He never said that. And they tried to defend it to the end – “Michael Jackson is a freak”. And they should be ashamed of themselves. They are not though.
15:32 They are a money-making machine. “Freak”, whatever – they don’t care. They don’t care about the person, they don’t care about the individual – all they care is how much money this “freak” is going to make for them. That’s what they are all about.
16:00 These were all written by AEG and of course none of them even remember writing this! “Ten thousand emails”. You think that if a guy got an email about the star of the show who they could not do the show without, and they had $35 million in it, that they might [not] remember writing the email? “Maybe”? Come on…
16:25 What are they trying to do? They are trying to hoodwink you. You are going to go for it – Michael is a bad person, Michael chose the doctor (we’ll get to that), but these are their emails – not mine, not my arguments, I didn’t hear them explain them. They don’t want to bring up the “freak”, they don’t want to bring up “we check everyone out” or to explain Kathy Jorrie’s 10 minute Google search [on Murray].
16:50 It’s not right, ladies and gentlemen. And it’s not responsible and it’s not right. And it would not be the right thing to believe Gongaware and Phillips and allow them to …. collect champaigne glasses down at AEG Live.
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It’s become difficult to fight these ugly tabloid sites and networks while some fans in the community continue to provide the tabloid hacks with a platform to degrade and disrespect MJ. The media is out to defame MJ period. They are out to create a hateful environment with regards to him and his children. This trial opened the door to the most disgusting offenders. The damage is done and MJ’s name was dragged, his privacy violated and his children’s peace horribly interrupted.
As fans of MICHAEL some of us need to stop turning HLN on, stop supporting TMZ with clicks or spreading their tabloid insults. We meed to finally realize who is tarnishing MJ legacy and who is building it. I don’t understand why some fans do not realize that by continually providing ratings for these hacks, helps to feed the hateful tabloid beast and keeps them posting dreadful lies and polls to help slander MJ and his children? When will we learn? When will we learn?
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Panish’s rebuttal of today to Putnam’s closing argument of yesterday:
Speaks for itself.
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Your first question, Helena, has confounded me for years. Why do people with nothing but hateful and ugly things to say seem to be so confident on the Internet? I believe one reason is anonymity; they are, in fact, ugly, hateful people who are unable to voice their feelings amongst their friends and co-workers, because there would be repercussions, so they do it on the Internet. I think of it as a form of masturbation. Perhaps some crimes of violence are avoided…
The second, and more troubling issue for me is that HLN DOES NOT want alternate opinions expressed. HLN is not a media outlet, but a lobbying group that hates the Jackson family and is doing its best to create a hostile environment in the media for them. I believe this is dangerous. HLN should announce itself as racist and in league with AEG and should call itself “AEG news” instead of pretending that it is a legitimate news source. (We wouldn’t expect the gun lobby to be unbiased about gun control laws.)
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I’m not sure if I skipped it but throughout the trial did Panish touch on AEG’s responsibility to provide the medical equipment? I think Michael receiving 20% of the blame is wrong to be honest. Whatever the case, I hope AEG gets their punishment.
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I admit that I’m not surprised by the results of the “deliberations” of the HLN “jury”. We already know that their hosts hate MJ.
What I find utterly despicable is the way they constantly displayed pictures of MJ’s children- even little Blanket, not to mention Paris in her weak state, asking the question “do they deserve to get 2b in damages?”.This sort of action seems designed to subject the children to a lifetime of hatred and verbal abuse by ignorant bigots. I am absolutely amazed that a network like CNN could really be a part of such a low and reprehensible act aimed at children.Perhaps comments should be placed on CNN’s site.
I am now asking myself where are the child protection groups? Why are they not speaking out against this? Where is the Estate and the lawyers who should be protecting the children? They were very active against the Jackson family recently, but now in the face of this more dangerous action, their lips are sealed.
I pray that AEG will be punished to the extent that they will never recover, but with HLN painting the children as as undeserving villains, I’m afraid that their nighmare will continue for a long time. May good Lord send his angels to protect them and Katherine.
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It was good to know Mr. Tom Meserau and Ms. Susan Yu attended the closing arguments today. I wonder if the reporters outside were able to get any comments or even attempted to.
I know most of the world is not aware of what is going on with this trial. They certainly weren’t flooded with reports like the 2005 or 2011 trials, but it has aroused feeling in those who are paying some attention. Battle lines are drawn by persons who say they are MJ Fans who are either for or against this trial. The paid to hate groups are out praising Murray and AEG, at least they left their baby diapers at home. And the Media with its Pundits are doing what they do best….. omitting & misinforming. .
I think most who are in favor of AEG being held responsible for placing Michael in a life or death stress situation and who controlled his medical care provider are optimistic. I believe they would have been sure the Plaintiffs will win, but that was before a criminal trial verdict which shocked and affected people more than other of our time. The Zimmerman verdict. Now knowing one tainted juror and the Judge’s instructions can change the outcome.
I am so disgusted with CNN/HLN. I recorded the closings online and the HLN circus on TV. After some rest I will put together a video or two showing what was going on in the courtroom and what was going on at HLN which had nothing to do with reporting the News to the people. AlanDuke posted one Tweet to his following after days of saying nothing.
Alan Duke @AlanDukeCNN
Jackson lawyer Brian Panish suggests Michael Jackson shares 20% of blame in his death http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/26/showbiz/michael-jackson-death-trial/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter …
Nothing about manufactored parts of the TII movie, nothing concerning AEG’s video which clearly shows AEG and Murray knew AEG was the employer. Zip…NaDa.
I keep claiming I cannot be surprised by what the Media does anymore. So why am I?
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