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Transcript of Evan Chandler/David Schwartz’s phone talk

Evan Chandler before surgery

Thanks to an anonymous correspondent of mine I now have a full transcript of the conversation between Evan Chandler (Jordan’s father) and David Schwartz (the boy’s stepfather) secretly taped by Dave Schwartz on July 9, 1993.

David Schwartz at Rent-a-Wreck

The full transcript is not easy to obtain – usually the text is quoted partially only with a random selection of ‘convenient’ passages depending on how friendly or hostile to Michael Jackson the author is.

A Friend of Michael will focus on Evan admitting that he ‘picked the nastiest son of a bitch he could find’ in order to turn it into a ‘massacre’ and on how ‘irrelevant’ it was whether it helped his son or not (all of which is correct).

A Hater of Michael will argue that Evan was acting in the best interests of the boy as he was genuinely concerned about his well-being (and that is probably correct too as you will see from the text).

Being keen on nothing but the truth I’m not in favor of one-sided opinions. The opportunity to make an independent study of Evan Chandler’s tape makes me really grateful to my correspondent though I do suspect him to be more of a doubter of Michael’s innocence than a friend. As long as the text is authentic (I hope it is!) the source where it comes from is of no importance at all. If doubters help to establish the truth about Michael Jackson  so much the better – the ways the truth takes can often be most unusual.

A little bit of good must be still remaining even in the worst Michael’s haters and in the long run none of them want to be guilty of wrongful accusations of an innocent man as all of us will answer to God for what we do, so it is really in everyone’s interests if an honest, thorough and accurate research of what really happened in 1993 was finally made (the 2005 is a so nonsense case that it isn’t even worth talking about).

The conversation between Jordan Chandler’s father and stepfather provided below won’t leave any of its readers impassive and unemotional. One question will pile over another resulting in a great deal of surprises and stunning revelations about the participants’ motives, intentions and way of thinking.  Among lots of other things you’ll find that:

1) Evan Chandler was NOT SURE of his suspicions about Michael – he even spoke of his ‘imagination that kills’ , the fact that he ‘was led’ to believe certain things about Michael and that he “had no idea what was going on”. His imagination was indeed so powerful that the whole thing reminded me of the classical tragedy of Othello whose mind was also so heavily poisoned by the scheming Iago that it ended in killing his innocent wife Desdemona, as you probably remember.

2) Evan called Michael ‘evil’ not so much because of his molestation suspicions but because he THOUGHT that Michael was BREAKING UP his family. There was actually nothing to break by that time – Jordan’s parents were divorced and Evan had a new wife and two small kids, and Jordan’s stepfather David who had been raising the boy since the age of 5 or 6 had also been separated from Jordan for about a year by then (approx. since August 92). No wonder the 13-year teenager was yearning for an older male’s company and stuck with Michael whom he really liked….

Evan sounds like thinking that Michael had nothing else to do but break up other people’s families. Well, for him as a father Jordan was indeed someone special, but for Michael he was no different than any other child – let me remind you that there were thousands of teenagers like Jordan who were craving for Michael’s attention, and many of them from single families not burdened by fathers or stepfathers at all.  And if these children found Michael so irresistible he was not to blame for it. The attraction Michael had for children was not his  fault – it was his fortune or misfortune, his drama or message in life, or whatever.

Michael surely had lots of other things to do at the time – he was forming a relationship with Lisa-Maria Presley which was only emerging at the time, was busy with rehearsals for a new leg of Dangerous tour to start in a couple of months, was composing his music, writing poetry, or attending to a thousand other matters including charity work, or all of the above taken together.

3) Evan mentioned he had ‘evidence’ to prove his worst suspicions about Michael. The heart of every Michael’s friend misses a beat of course when hearing statements like that, but WAIT A MINUTE… if the evidence was really that damning why don’t we know anything about it even NOW?

Was Evan talking about that evidence which was later scrutinized by two Grand juries in the criminal investigation of 1993/94 and which wasn’t found significant enough to bring any charges against Michael?

Was it that same evidence that was brought up at the 2005 trial thanks to Tom Sneddon’s efforts – only to be thrown away again as Michael was fully acquitted on all counts after a thorough examination of every fact since the year 1993?

Was it that same evidence the traces of which were not found in any of Michael’s computers even though he was also investigated by the FBI which kept him under their surveillance for 15 years or more?

And if there was no evidence to present either in 1993 or 2005 it means that there was NOTHING for Evan to fume over in his conversation with David Schwartz back in 1993? Oh, my God…

4) But while reading that transcript you will surely feel that Evan was truly concerned about his son’s welfare. Yes, he sounds genuine enough, but even if we do believe that Evan’s ruthless behavior was prompted not by his greed (which came later) but by the desire to protect his son against any possible harm, it will nevertheless break your heart to realize that Evan turned Michael Jackson’s life into a massacre and destroyed it just FOR NOTHING – as a result of all those groundless suspicions, work of imagination and the evidence which never existed.

5) While reading the transcript you will also probably realize that Evan Chandler’s rage was targeted at Michael but was motivated by someone totally different. To me it looks more like a nasty family squabble where a former husband takes revenge on his former wife – really cold and heartless – as well as on the man who happened to pass them by at the time and was reckless enough to become their friend.

Have I also started imagining things or did June Chandler put her hand to it TOO by making her own plans about Michael Jackson and working on a way to grab this choicest of all men as her new marriage partner? Hence all this cutting out Evan from her life and telling him to ‘go f*** himself’ instead? Didn’t she have a more important romantic business to attend to rather than listening to her former husband who was clearly in the way to her new and glamorous life?

Remember all those invitations she made to Michael to spend several days running at her home with family dinners and so on? Everyone thinks it was due to Jordan… Yes, of course, it was so convenient to give this explanation once it became clear that Michael had finally seen through her and turned her down.

So wasn’t it EVERYONE who was making plans about the unsuspecting Michael Jackson at the time? 

It is your turn to decide.

TRANSCRIPT of Evan Chandler and David Schwartz talking on the phone

1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

3

4 DAVID SCHWARTZ, AN INDIVIDUAL, )

5 PLAINTIFF, ) CASE NO.

6 VS. ) SC 031 774

7 EVAN CHANDLER, AN INDIVIDUAL, AND )

8 DOES 1 THROUGH 50, INCLUSIVE, )

9 DEFENDANTS. )

10

14 TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED

15 EXHIBIT NO. 10

16 D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER

17

25 FILE NO. TPA81793.MK

CONVERSATION 1

2 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

3

4 MR. CHANDLER: — discuss why it might

5 be harmful.

6 Suppose I’m right? I mean if Michael

7 loves [tape irregularity] Lisa at least want to

8 hear my opinion about why what’s going on could be

9 potentially harmful? If you love somebody, you

10 don’t want them to get hurt.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk it

12 in front of Jordy, about that?

13 MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk

15 about that in front of Jordy?

16 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

17 He has to be there.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: He has to be there, and

20 one of the reasons that he has to be there is

21 because he’s always gonna remember it. Somebody

22 has to be the — there’s gotta be some one person

23 that later on in life he can look back on and kind

24 of pattern himself after someone or have some

25 structure for his own existence, based on — he’ll

4

1 look at me, and he’ll say, “Yeah. He was honest,

2 he had integrity, he had respect. I could trust

3 him. He never lied to me,” all that kind of stuff.

4 He may hate me now. He may not be able

5 to articulate all of those things in his own head

6 right now, but when he sees it, it’ll be in his

7 head, and when he’s old enough there will be those

8 things that will be important to him. Hopefully

9 I’ll be able to portray those things to him,

10 because I think they’re important.

11 I also think it’s incredibly important

12 to have somebody else in your life that really

13 loves you and you really love them because if

14 you’re [tape irregularity] happy.

15 I’ve never seen a single solo, isolated

16 human being who was truly happy —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s what’s

19 going to happen to Jordy.

20 I think that’s June’s situation.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: June has nobody. You

23 tell me who June has. You tell me who June has who

24 really loves her, who she really loves back, you

25 can’t think of one person.

5

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I can.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Who?

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Gloria.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Really.

6 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

7 inaudible.)

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria, Nadine or Florence.

9 She’s pretty close with her friends.

10 MR. CHANDLER: Nah, she’s —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s — wait.

12 MR. CHANDLER: She believes that —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: She’s close with you.

14 MR. CHANDLER: — four or five cups of

15 caffeine in the morning and gets on the phone and

16 yaps (inaudible) all day, you commiserate about

17 their miseries —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, here’s

19 the whole thing. We can’t, you know, I can’t put

20 her down that all she’s doing is hanging out. It’s

21 not so horrible.

22 MR. CHANDLER: That what?

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: That, you know, I mean,

24 she’s into hanging out.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out is okay.

6

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. She’s —

2 MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out’s kind of a

3 benign thing. She’s not hanging out anymore. When

4 she stopped hanging out —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: — and became actively

7 destructive in Jordy’s life is when I stepped in

8 and when I decided I have to do something about it.

9 I tried to talk to her about it, Dave,

10 on several occasions.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we know she’s hard

12 to talk to.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you could — if

14 you could — yes. I mean, that’s unquestionable.

15 She is impossible to talk to. And I’ve never

16 really — I mean, I’ve gotten angry with her many

17 times and —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity]

20 long as you’ve stepped in —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — the issue has never

23 involved potentially harming Jordy for the rest of

24 his life —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: [Tape irregularity.]

7

1 MR. CHANDLER: — issues over Jordy

2 before that I’ve backed down —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: — because you asked me

5 to or whatever the reason was —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — and I’ve never

8 been — I’ve never been that set on pursuing it

9 until now because I truly believe this will damage

10 him for the rest of his life. And she will

11 not — and I’ve told her that, and I’ve tried to

12 talk to her about that —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s not willing

15 to talk to me about it.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t even want to

18 hear what might be harming him.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: She doesn’t want to

21 even know — she doesn’t want to hear any words.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What if —

23 MR. CHANDLER: “Get out of my face.

24 Don’t even mention that.” That’s not an issue for

25 her.

8

1 I mean, what kind of person is that?

2 If — I stopped taking that personally.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we all have

4 different ways of coping.

5 MR. CHANDLER: You see, as an adult,

6 coping’s no excuse. That’s like driving drunk and

7 saying, “I’m sorry, but I didn’t realize there was

8 a law against driving drunk” and you just ran on

9 the sidewalk.

10 The fact is you’re a responsible adult.

11 You’re supposed to have some sense and judgment,

12 and that’s how it’s going to go down.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. How about if you,

14 June and I get together?

15 MR. CHANDLER: No. Why do you keep

16 doing that?

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t — I

18 don’t want to subject Jordy to this until — I

19 mean, I feel very uncomfortable —

20 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you

21 this way: I have a set routine of words that I’m

22 going to go in there that have been rehearsed and

23 I’m going to say.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don’t

9

1 want to say anything that could be used against me.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I

4 can say. That’s why I’m bringing the tape

5 recorder.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: I have some things on

8 paper to show a few people —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s it. My

11 whole part is going to take two or three minutes,

12 and I’m going to turn around [tape irregularity],

13 and that’s it. There’s not going to be anything

14 said, other than what I’ve been told to say —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m going to turn

17 around and leave, and they’re going to have a

18 decision to make.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: And based on that

21 decision, I’ll decide whether or not we’re going to

22 talk again or whether it’s going to go further.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: I have to make a phone

25 call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the

10

1 telephone.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: I make a phone call.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Say “Go” or I say,

6 “Don’t go yet,” and that’s —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — the way it’s gonna to

9 be.

10 I’ve been told what to do, and I have

11 to do it.

12 I’m not — I happen to know what’s

13 going to be going on, see? They don’t have to say

14 anything to me. [Tape irregularity] “you have

15 refused to listen to me. Now you’re going to have

16 to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a

17 thought.”

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: “Think it over.”

20 I’m not saying anything bad about

21 anybody, okay? I’ve got it all on paper.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to hand out

24 the paper so that I don’t inadvertently [tape

25 irregularity], handing out the paper, “Michael,

11

1 here’s your paper. June, here’s your paper.”

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: “Compare papers. Read

4 this whole thing. This is my feelings about it.

5 Do you want to talk further? We’ll talk again.”

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: “If you don’t” [tape

8 irregularity] — but, see, all I’m trying to do

9 now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity]

10 on paper and give it to them to read —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — because [tape

13 irregularity]. I mean, isn’t that pitiful?

14 Now, why would they want to cut me out,

15 to go this far, spend this much money, spend so

16 much time in my life crying, being away from my

17 practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody

18 else? Why would they want to put me through that?

19 And I made it very clear to June that she was

20 putting me through that because I didn’t want any

21 misunderstandings. I’ve done everything I could to

22 appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- —

23 absolutely cold and heartless. That’s all —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, maybe on the

25 surface it appears like that, but I —

12

1 MR. CHANDLER: I know on the surface

2 June is charming —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, no. I think on the

4 surface it might appear cold, but I don’t — I

5 don’t agree with that.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, “Go fuck yourself”

7 is not a surface reaction.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Have you

9 ever — you mean you have never done that, right?

10 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

11 inaudible) and they say “Go fuck yourself,” that’s

12 not a surface —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it?

14 MR. CHANDLER: — sorry.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: You’ve never done it? I

16 mean, have you ever got pissed at a friend and

17 gotten in an argument for three weeks?

18 MR. CHANDLER: No, no, no.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Never, ever?

20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

21 inaudible) — like that, Dave, not consistently

22 like that.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

24 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

25 inaudible) — so far as to go to say, “Okay.

13

1 Forget about me. This is what’s going on with

2 Jordan. This is my concern,” and have her say “Go

3 fuck yourself” again. So [tape irregularity] there

4 I said, “This is not a human being I’m dealing with

5 anymore.”

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you

7 this — I mean, did you give Jordy any ultimatums?

8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Because, see,

10 that’s how he feels trapped, I think.

11 MR. CHANDLER: Too bad.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why — I mean —

13 MR. CHANDLER: All he has to do is talk

14 to me about it.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but how can

16 you — I mean, you know what you could do — I

17 mean, couldn’t you approach it like saying, “Jordy,

18 this is how I feel. This is why communications is

19 important. We gotta discuss this.”

20 MR. CHANDLER: This is what I said to

21 Jordy. I said, “What if I asked you not to do

22 something?” That’s how I put it.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: He said, “I wouldn’t

25 care.”

14

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: That’s what he said.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what’s wrong with

4 that?

5 MR. CHANDLER: What’s wrong?

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean, what is

7 wrong with that?

8 MR. CHANDLER: Well, let me ask you

9 this: Never in his life, ever, would he

10 have — did he ever respond that way or would he

11 have ever responded that way —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: — which means that

14 something has happened inside of him and in his

15 life that is now making him respond to me in a

16 totally different way. What has happened to him?

17 His mother’s changed, and Michael’s in his life,

18 and you weren’t there to balance it out. And

19 that’s it.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, and I wasn’t

21 there, and you’re right.

22 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I wasn’t there to

24 discuss it with him.

25 MR. CHANDLER: So the whole thing

15

1 happened.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

3 MR. CHANDLER: And that’s it.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: So blame me.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, I’m not blaming you.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it is my fault.

7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

8 inaudible).

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s my fault. I wasn’t

10 there to —

11 MR. CHANDLER: No, no. You don’t

12 understand. We’re gonna see whose fault it is.

13 And I’m gonna tell you: It isn’t up to you to

14 decide whose fault it is or up to me to decide

15 whose fault it is. Other people who are trained to

16 [tape irregularity] whose fault it is are going to

17 make that decision, and I’ll bet you anything that

18 they don’t decide that it’s your fault. You’re not

19 going to get blamed, and you can go and say

20 whatever you want. No one’s [tape irregularity]

21 they may say, “That’s very nice. Get the fuck out

22 of here, and let’s get down to the real issues,”

23 but that’s it. That’s what’s going to happen. I’m

24 not getting blamed and you’re not getting blamed.

25 And that’s — I mean —

16

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But no one should get

2 blamed. I mean —

3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

4 inaudible) talking about bottom line because that’s

5 what it’s really going to come down to —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — bottom line, no one’s

8 gonna give a shit about you in this issue.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: So when you tell me that

11 I should blame you, that’s not the bottom line.

12 That’s not how it’s going to be seen (simultaneous,

13 inaudible).

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: But does there have to

15 be where someone’s at fault? Can’t it be where we

16 just work it out?

17 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you see — yeah.

18 That’s why I tried to get in touch with them, to

19 (simultaneous, inaudible) work it out —

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well, but

21 that’s — wait.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — but they don’t want

23 to talk to me.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Well, that’s not

25 true. That is not true.

17

1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

2 inaudible) till tomorrow —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Have you ever gone

4 through a period where you just didn’t — wait. Of

5 course you have. Of course you have.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Dave —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: When I screamed at

8 Monique to get you to call me.

9 MR. CHANDLER: So what? That was one

10 day. Two days.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it didn’t

12 matter — it can’t count the days.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I have to count

14 the days because I can’t let it go on forever.

15 By the way, they’re going on tour on

16 August 15th. They’re going to be gone. They’re

17 going to be out of the country —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: — for four months.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is that bad?

21 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I’m not going to

22 be able to communicate with them about this when

23 they’re gone, am I?

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, but you think

25 that —

18

1 MR. CHANDLER: By the way, they’re not

2 going.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: They don’t know that

5 yet, but they are not going.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: So, I mean, especially

8 if they don’t show up tomorrow, they’re definitely

9 not going. They’ll be lucky if Michael even —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you — let me

11 ask you this —

12 MR. CHANDLER: — tour (inaudible) get

13 canceled.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me — let me

15 ask you this: I mean, why can’t you meet — why

16 can’t we meet after I get off work?

17 MR. CHANDLER: Because —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, why not? What’s

19 the difference?

20 MR. CHANDLER: Seems to me it’s not

21 important enough for you to take off work to be —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: It is important enough,

23 but I still —

24 MR. CHANDLER: Fuck your job.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

19

1 MR. CHANDLER: It’s still going to be

2 there at 8:35. This whole thing’s going to take

3 five minutes.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: I’ve already told you I

6 have — I’m not allowed to say anything more —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — than I’ve already

9 prepared. It’s on paper.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it your —

11 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going in to —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your

13 attorney?

14 MR. CHANDLER: What?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because of your

16 attorney?

17 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why don’t we meet at

19 your attorney’s office?

20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s something

21 we can do if we get past tomorrow.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: He’s willing to meet

24 with them. Right now he’d like to kill them all.

25 I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.

20

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: The only reason that I’m

3 meeting with them tomorrow is, the real fact of the

4 matter is —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: — because of Monique.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: Monique begged me to do

9 it.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: She said, “You’re out of

12 control” —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can Monique be there?

14 MR. CHANDLER: Tomorrow?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: She wanted to be there,

17 but —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I want her to be there.

19 MR. CHANDLER: I wouldn’t let her.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why not?

21 MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates

22 Monique.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not true.

24 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know

25 something?

21

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: That is not true —

2 MR. CHANDLER: Now —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: — at all.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Well, really! Well,

5 then that makes Jordy a liar, and that makes

6 Michael a liar.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

8 MR. CHANDLER: They both told me that

9 Monique — that June —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. You can’t see

11 that whole thing?

12 MR. CHANDLER: What?

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s woman jealousy.

14 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care what —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t matter —

16 MR. CHANDLER: The problem is you’re in

17 love with her so you keep on making excuses.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

19 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not in love with her

20 anymore. I don’t even like her anymore.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t know about

22 female jealousy?

23 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t care about that.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: That has nothing —

25 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) Dave.

22

1 That’s pathologic. I don’t want that affecting —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s not pathologic.

3 That is the bottom line.

4 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

5 inaudible) pathologic. I don’t care what the

6 reason is. I don’t care. I’m not playing

7 psychiatrist and analyzing.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why wouldn’t you

9 want Monique there? I would feel much more

10 comfortable.

11 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

12 inaudible), that’s why.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

14 MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates her,

15 so I don’t want to —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: She does not hate her.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Of course she hates her.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: She totally respects her

19 and doesn’t hate her.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, Jordy is a

21 liar and Michael (inaudible) —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — because they told me

24 verbatim, together —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

23

1 MR. CHANDLER: — that June hates

2 Monique.

3 In fact, they went even further and

4 told me several of the things that June said about

5 Monique.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Now, maybe they

8 went back and told June that Monique said things

9 about her and —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) lied.

12 Maybe they’re lying. I don’t know. But knowing

13 June, I don’t think that they lied. I think

14 they’re telling me the truth.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: And I want Monique out

17 of this completely.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: Because all that will

20 happen is that June will convince Jordy that

21 Monique’s a bad person and by her presence there

22 she must have put me up to this whole thing —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: — and June will

25 fabricate some great lie —

24

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Ahhh.

2 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

3 inaudible) I’m only going there because of Monique,

4 because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a

5 lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — to see everybody get

8 destroyed —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — like they’ve

11 destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier.

12 And Monique just kept telling me, “You

13 don’t want to really do this,” and she finally

14 [tape irregularity] for the sake of everything that

15 we’ve all had in the past —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: — to give it one more

18 try, and that’s the only reason, because this

19 attorney I found — I mean, I interviewed several,

20 and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — I could find, and all

23 he wants to do is get this out in the public as

24 fast as he can, as big as he can —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25

1 MR. CHANDLER: — and humiliate as many

2 people as he can, and he’s got a bad [tape

3 irregularity] —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s

5 good?

6 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

7 inaudible) he’s costing me a lot of money.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s

9 good?

10 MR. CHANDLER: I think that’s great. I

11 think it’s terrific. The best. Because when

12 somebody — when somebody tells you that they don’t

13 want to talk to you —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — you have to talk to

16 them —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — you have to get their

19 attention. It’s a matter of life and death.

20 That’s how I’m taking it. I have to talk to them.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: This is life and death

23 for my son. I have to get their attention. If I

24 don’t get it, if I haven’t gotten it on the phone

25 and I don’t get it tomorrow —

26

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: — this guy will

3 certainly get it. That’s the next step. And you

4 want to know something? I even have somebody after

5 him if he doesn’t [tape irregularity]. But I don’t

6 want [tape malfunctioned]. I’m not kidding. I

7 mean what I told you before.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: It’s true. I mean, it

10 could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want.

11 But I do believe this person will get what he

12 wants.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: So he would just really

15 love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to

16 have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — he is very smart

19 [tape irregularity], and he’s hungry for the

20 publicity [tape irregularity] better for him.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: And that’s where it’ll

23 go —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think everyone

25 loses?

27

1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

2 inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: That — everyone doesn’t

4 lose in that?

5 MR. CHANDLER: That’s not the issue.

6 See, the issue is that if I have to go that far —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — I can’t stop and

9 think “Who wins and who loses?”

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: All I can think about is

12 I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their

13 attention —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — so that [tape

16 irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they

17 don’t want to talk to me, I can’t tell them what my

18 concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each

19 time escalating the attention-getting mechanism,

20 and that’s all I regard him as, as an

21 attention-getting mechanism.

22 Unfortunately, after that, it’s totally

23 out of [tape irregularity]. It’ll take on so much

24 momentum of its own that it’s going to be out of

25 all our control. It’s going to be monumentally

28

1 huge, and I’m not going to have any way to stop it.

2 No one else is either at that point. I mean, once

3 I make that phone call, this guy’s just going to

4 destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty,

5 cruel way that he can do it. And I’ve given him

6 full authority to do that.

7 To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean

8 I have done every possible thing in my individual

9 power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and

10 if they still [tape irregularity], I got to

11 escalate the attention-getting mechanism. He’s the

12 next one. I can’t go to somebody nice [tape

13 irregularity]. It doesn’t work with them. I

14 already found that out. Get some niceness and just

15 go fuck yourself.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Basically, what they

18 have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are

19 over, if they don’t sit down. One way or the

20 other, it’ll either go to the next step or the

21 [tape irregularity]. I’m not stopping until I get

22 their attention.

23 Do I [tape irregularity] the only goal

24 is right now I have to do what I think is best for

25 Jordy —

29

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: — and I think what’s

3 going on now is bad for Jordy, and therefore any

4 alternative is better.

5 If I’m wrong, they should sit down, and

6 they should tell me why I’m wrong.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: But —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: So wouldn’t you sit down

10 with me, and we could discuss it first?

11 MR. CHANDLER: No, because you don’t

12 know the issues.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you could tell

14 me.

15 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

16 inaudible) totally ignorant of all the issues.

17 No. There’s really no way you could

18 relate these to somebody, you know.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah? Well, sure you

20 could.

21 MR. CHANDLER: Like it’ll get related.

22 It’ll get related, you know. You’ll see it.

23 You’ll see it, and it’s not going to be up for me

24 or you to decide.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can you meet him here at

30

1 work?

2 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, no. I’m going to

3 meet at the house.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why can’t you meet here?

5 MR. CHANDLER: Well, for one thing,

6 Michael has to be there.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Michael will

8 come.

9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

10 inaudible) won’t be at Rent a Wreck.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael would come here.

12 MR. CHANDLER: Well, how do you know

13 that?

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll see. I mean, if

15 he’ll come here, will you do it here?

16 MR. CHANDLER: No. Why?

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because it’s easier for

18 me.

19 MR. CHANDLER: So you could be at work?

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. So I don’t have to

21 leave.

22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

23 inaudible) signals.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

25 MR. CHANDLER: You keep giving me

31

1 these —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not crossed

3 signals. I’m telling you it’s — I’m here every

4 second. It’s difficult to get away.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you have to get

6 your priorities —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but my priority is

8 this, but, I mean, you can compromise for me.

9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

10 inaudible) tell me this is very difficult choice,

11 you know, your children or your work.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, it’s not a

13 difficult choice.

14 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it’s just —

16 MR. CHANDLER: — the issue, then. Be

17 it —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: It makes it — wait.

19 What’s the difference —

20 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

21 inaudible) work by 9:00 o’clock.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What is the difference

23 for you? I mean, it makes it easier for me. Is it

24 different for you?

25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

32

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Why is it

2 different?

3 MR. CHANDLER: What if I told you their

4 house was wired?

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Does that make a

7 difference?

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

9 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: I’m just saying, “What

12 if it was?”

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well —

14 MR. CHANDLER: Would that — would

15 you — could you see the [tape irregularity].

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Then you want to

17 record it.

18 MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that it

19 is.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: Let’s just say that.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

23 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not saying it is.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

25 MR. CHANDLER: But let’s just say that

33

1 it was. Okay? That would make a difference.

2 (Inaudible)?

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. You got to do me

4 one favor.

5 MR. CHANDLER: What?

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. The way we’ve

7 just talked is completely — the way you’ve sounded

8 is completely different than when I talked to you

9 the first time. I mean, you gotta be —

10 MR. CHANDLER: Well, (inaudible)

11 talking tomorrow, Dave.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

13 MR. CHANDLER: I told you, it’s all on

14 paper.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: That’s why I’m bringing

17 a tape recorder.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but are you going

19 to be calm like this?

20 MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to say.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not going to be

23 calm. I’m not going to be anything. I’m not going

24 to be — I’m going to be totally void of anything.

25 I’m just going to say, “Look. Here’s something for

34

1 you guys to read. You read it. You think it

2 over.”

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to sit down

5 and talk, we can all meet in my attorney’s office.”

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: “If you want to tell me

8 to go fuck myself, then just let me know that” —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — “and I’ll let him

11 know that’s what your feelings are.”

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why do you —

13 MR. CHANDLER: — and that has

14 to — that has to happen before 12:00 o’clock

15 tomorrow. They have to make that decision —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And let me ask

17 you this —

18 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

19 inaudible) don’t hear from them about it, then the

20 wheels start —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you have to have

22 Jordy there, if all we’re going to do is read it?

23 MR. CHANDLER: I tried to explain that

24 to you.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. If we have to read

35

1 something.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Because I explained that

3 to you. I want him to see how I’m behaving.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: I want him to see how

6 I’m acting.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you

8 have to have Michael there?

9 MR. CHANDLER: What’s that beeping

10 going on? Do you hear that?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: Are you recording this?

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

14 MR. CHANDLER: Do you hear the beeping?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: Well, let’s hang up.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

18 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

1 (Tape 1, Side B begins:)

2

3 CONVERSATION 30

4 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

5

6 (Dial tone.)

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, Ev.

8 MR. CHANDLER: Hi, Dave.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: How you doing?

10 Thanks for calling me back.

11 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. I’m in the car.

12 I’m on the way home.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

14 MR. CHANDLER: Where are you?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m at work.

16 MR. CHANDLER: You’re at [tape

17 irregularity].

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: You want to come by

19 here?

20 MR. CHANDLER: No. I’m wasted, Man.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I’m — we

22 gotta talk this out.

23 MR. CHANDLER: Nothing to talk about.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Of course we can talk it

25 out.

126

1 MR. CHANDLER: Just be there tomorrow

2 if you want to hear what I want to say. That’s

3 all. And if they’re not there, then there’s

4 nothing that anybody has to say, and that’s the end

5 of it.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you

7 this:

8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: What if like, say, June

10 and I are there?

11 MR. CHANDLER: No good.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

13 MR. CHANDLER: They all have to be

14 there.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: They all have to be

16 there.

17 In fact, if anybody were missing, it

18 would be June that I wouldn’t care the most.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Who?

20 MR. CHANDLER: June. The one that I

21 car the most about —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. How about if

23 Jordy and I go?

24 MR. CHANDLER: No. Jordy and you?

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

127

1 MR. CHANDLER: And me?

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: No.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

5 MR. CHANDLER: That’s silly. No.

6 Michael has to be there. Michael has to be there.

7 He’s the main one. He’s the one I want.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think

9 he’s a bad guy?

10 MR. CHANDLER: Michael?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: He’s an evil guy. He’s

13 worse than bad.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you

15 believe that?

16 MR. CHANDLER: Huh?

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you believe that?

18 MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence to

19 prove it.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: You’ll believe it, too,

22 when you hear —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Let me ask you

24 something. I mean, you trust me, right?

25 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you

128

1 this way, Dave. Nobody in this world was allowed

2 to come between this family of June, me and Jordy.

3 That was the hard [tape irregularity] be the

4 opposite. That’s evil. That’s one reason why he’s

5 evil.

6 I spoke to him about it, Dave. I even

7 told him that [tape irregularity] the family.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: When did you talk to

9 him?

10 MR. CHANDLER: About that?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: Months ago. When I

13 first met him I told him that.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: That’s the law. That’s

16 the first thing he knew. Nobody’s allowed to do

17 that. Now there’s no family anymore.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: I mean

20 Jordy’s — Jordy’s my life. Period.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it.

22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

23 inaudible) my life.

24 What?

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it?

129

1 MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t. It doesn’t.

2 I don’t know how it’ll help it. It can’t hurt it

3 anymore. It’s — I have — that’s why I have

4 nothing to lose.

5 I made this really clear to them. If

6 they’re all there, we could all sit and talk. If

7 they’re not there —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask —

9 okay.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — taking it out of my

11 hands, and there won’t be any talking anymore.

12 They have a chance. They have a chance to talk it

13 out.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: If they’re not in a

16 calm, peaceful manner —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — even said you can be

19 there. You could be there. I’m not going to do

20 anything with you there. Michael can come with 20

21 bodyguards and all with guns if he wants to. He

22 can even come there with his [tape irregularity].

23 I don’t care. All I’m saying is everybody who’s a

24 party to this (inaudible) sit down and talk about

25 it.

130

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t disagree

2 with that.

3 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, we’re not. See,

5 now —

6 MR. CHANDLER: — don’t want to be

7 there, then they have made it to the point where I

8 can’t talk to them about it —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: No.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — so I have to force

11 them to the table —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, no. I don’t

13 disagree with everyone sits down and talks about

14 it.

15 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s what I’m

16 calling — that’s what I called him about. Hello?

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, that was the

18 message on the machine?

19 MR. CHANDLER: No. The man — yeah.

20 That was the message on the machine. It said

21 they’d better be there, because on the other times

22 they tried — hello?

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: The other times I tried

25 to tell them that I needed to talk to them, all I

131

1 got was, “Go fuck yourself. We’re not talking to

2 you.”

3 So now I had to let them know and make

4 sure that they know they’d [tape irregularity]

5 they’re gonna get hurt by it, so (inaudible) — I

6 had to make [tape irregularity] if they don’t sit

7 down and talk to me they’re gonna get hurt. They

8 can’t keep telling me to go fuck myself anymore.

9 They have to talk. I want to talk to them. I

10 don’t want to hurt anybody. They’re forcing me to

11 do it. They’re forcing me to do it by refusing to

12 sit down and talk to me. That’s all I ask for.

13 “You sit down and you talk to me [tape

14 irregularity] side of the story, I’ll listen to

15 yours, we all sit down and see how it could be

16 resolved.”

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So that’s

18 there —

19 MR. CHANDLER: That’s all I ask for.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but —

21 MR. CHANDLER: Michael can come with

22 all his bodyguards and his lawyer if he wants to.

23 I don’t really care, as long as everything gets

24 aired out. That’s it. And if I walk away

25 dissatisfied, then I’ll take it to the next step.

132

1 That’s all. If they walk away dissatisfied, they

2 have the right to do that, too. At least [tape

3 irregularity] nothing will get resolved except for

4 the fact that we’ll agree to meet again and talk

5 about it.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know where it’ll

8 go, but I’m saying is that when people — when

9 you — when people cut off communication totally,

10 you only have two choices: To forget about them,

11 or you get frustrated by their action. I can’t

12 forget about them. I love them. That’s it. I

13 don’t like them. I still love Jordy, but I do not

14 like them because I do not like the people that

15 they’ve become, but I do love them, and because I

16 love them I don’t want to see them [tape

17 irregularity]. That’s why I was willing to talk.

18 I have nothing to gain by talking. If

19 I go through with this, I win big time. There’s no

20 way that I lose. I’ve checked that out inside out.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: But when you say

22 “winning,” what are you talking about, “winning”?

23 MR. CHANDLER: I will get everything I

24 want, and they will be totally — they will be

25 destroyed forever. They will be destroyed. June

133

1 is gonna lose Jordy. She will have no right to

2 ever see him again.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: That’s a fact, Dave.

5 That’s what —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help —

7 MR. CHANDLER: — Michael the career

8 will be over.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help Jordy?

10 MR. CHANDLER: Michael’s career will be

11 over.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: And does that help

13 Jordy?

14 MR. CHANDLER: It’s irrelevant to me.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I mean the

16 bottom line is —

17 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line to me

18 is, yes, June is harming him, and Michael is

19 harming him. I can prove that, and I will prove

20 that

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — and if they force me

23 to go to court about it, I will [tape

24 irregularity], and I will be granted custody. She

25 will have no rights whatsoever.

134

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Now, I’m willing to sit

3 down and talk to her. If she wants to tell me to

4 go fuck myself after that, she’s welcome to do it,

5 and then she’ll either be right or wrong. [tape

6 irregularity] I’ll win, maybe I’ll lose. I have

7 the [tape irregularity]

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: [tape irregularity] for

9 custody?

10 MR. CHANDLER: Forget the custody

11 thing. It’s gonna go further than that.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what’s the

13 bottom — I mean, what is the bottom line, though?

14 MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is, I

16 mean, your responsibility and my responsibility —

17 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line

18 (simultaneous, inaudible) what I want?

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: No —

20 MR. CHANDLER: Is that what you’re

21 saying?

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean —

23 MR. CHANDLER: — what I want?

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, what’s our

25 responsibility in life, really?

135

1 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you don’t have any

2 right —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: The kids is the number

4 one —

5 MR. CHANDLER: — to discuss that.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

7 MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right

8 to discuss that.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

10 MR. CHANDLER: You’re a negligent

11 father. You don’t have a right, by your own

12 admission before. You told me that you were

13 negligent.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: You were negligent to

16 Jordy, and you’ve been negligent to Kelly.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: In a court — in a court

19 of law, June could prove you negligent in one flat

20 fucking second.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So?

22 MR. CHANDLER: You don’t have any right

23 to all of a sudden decide that you’re going to be a

24 good father or have a conversation about what’s

25 right to do. I’ve never condemned you for it. I

136

1 know what you’re going through [tape irregularity]

2 that. I understand you have to stay away in order

3 to be a normal human being. I understand that, but

4 no one’s gonna give a shit about that in court.

5 You and I live [tape irregularity] but

6 I’m still living through it every day at my office,

7 and it’s just bad for me too, believe me, and I

8 understand you really well, and I know why [tape

9 irregularity] she’ll make you look bad in one

10 second.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I don’t disagree

12 with that.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, this time

14 it’s gonna be the other way around because

15 she — you see, I love him so much that I’m willing

16 to destroy my own life to protect him —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — to do what I think is

19 the best thing to do, not just — it’s not what I

20 think. I’ve gotten professional [tape

21 irregularity] everybody agrees that the only thing

22 that was insane is that I didn’t step in a long —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: This is —

24 MR. CHANDLER: This is —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: — detrimental to him?

137

1 MR. CHANDLER: Extremely harmful to

2 him.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Everybody agrees with

5 that. I mean, they — it’s their opinions that

6 have convinced me to not stay away.

7 You know, I’m not confrontational.

8 I’ve got an [tape irregularity] inclination to do

9 what you do, say, “Okay. Go fuck yourself. Go do

10 what you want to do, and, you know, call me some

11 day. I’ll see you then. I got a [tape

12 irregularity],” but I’ve been so convinced by

13 professional opinions that I have been negligent in

14 not stepping in sooner that now it’s made me

15 insane. Now I actually feel [tape irregularity] —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I do, and I —

17 MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity]

18 more important than the money, if the kid’s more

19 important that you are, and they’re more important

20 than I am —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: And they are.

22 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Then —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But let me ask —

24 MR. CHANDLER: — by action, Dave.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, but —

138

1 MR. CHANDLER: Staying away from the

2 family is not a good way of indicating that you

3 care about your family. It’s a copout, and you —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don’t know if

5 it’s a copout. It might be the —

6 MR. CHANDLER: My feeling is, Dave, my

7 feeling is that when you have really good

8 communication with somebody, you don’t have to stay

9 away from them.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what happens when

11 you —

12 MR. CHANDLER: — agree, but at least

13 you could talk. You know, as long as you’re

14 talking, nobody’s gonna get hurt. When the talking

15 stops, that’s when people get hurt.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And that’s what

17 happened with you?

18 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, that’s what

19 happened with me. They won’t return my phone

20 calls. June called me once last week.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: She told me to go fuck

23 myself. Not in those words.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: But you don’t have to

139

1 say it in those words.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: But you know June.

3 MR. CHANDLER: I —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know her

5 thing is that she has to get the last word in.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Well, she isn’t this

7 time, Dave, and you want to know something —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you put her

9 down for that?

10 MR. CHANDLER: Do I put her down?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: For that?

12 MR. CHANDLER: I never did before, but

13 when her getting her last word is now going to be

14 harmful to Jordy, yes, I am going to step in, and,

15 again, I’m not telling you this is my — my opinion

16 was formed by —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — but this is my

19 perception of [tape irregularity] professional

20 opinions to make sure I wasn’t going off the deep

21 end here.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: And all I’m telling you

24 is — I’ve always said this to June, and I’ve said

25 this to Monique also, and I’ll say this to anybody

140

1 I can. No matter what I do, you’re wrong

2 automatically if you don’t sit down and talk about

3 it, because my feeling is [tape irregularity] and

4 you [tape irregularity] talk anything will be

5 worked out. But as soon as you cut off

6 communication you only frustrate the other person.

7 And that makes — and that makes you wrong [tape

8 irregularity] worse that way.

9 You say to them, “I don’t care enough

10 about you to sit down and talk.”

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t disagree with

12 that.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s all I was

14 asking. I’ve asked them for a month to sit down

15 and talk to me, and I’m very disturbed and very

16 concerned. I want them to hear my concerns.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: Let them just tell me

19 why I’m wrong. Let them just tell me that [tape

20 irregularity] detrimental, et cetera. Let them

21 just tell me that. And maybe I’ll disagree with

22 them, and then we’ll take it from there.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But at least you can

24 talk about it.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, they will

141

1 not talk.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

4 inaudible) forced me —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

6 MR. CHANDLER: What do I do? I mean,

7 in the opinion of these experts, I would be a

8 negligent father if I did not do what I am now

9 doing.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: In fact, in their

12 opinion I have been negligent not to put a stop to

13 [tape irregularity] opinion.

14 I happen to agree with them now. I

15 didn’t agree with them at first.

16 Michael [tape irregularity] nice [tape

17 irregularity] —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: So why do you think he’s

19 not nice?

20 MR. CHANDLER: Why? Because he broke

21 up the family, that’s why.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: And he was put on notice

24 from the first sentence out of my mouth was,

25 “Michael, I think you’re really a great guy.

142

1 You’re welcome into the family, as long as you are

2 who you seem to be, but don’t take anything [tape

3 irregularity].” I mean, that to me was the worst

4 thing anybody could do to me.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think he did it?

6 MR. CHANDLER: Well, Dave, if he wasn’t

7 in the picture, everything would be as it was.

8 I’m not —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: But that’s sort of —

10 MR. CHANDLER: — saying that he did it

11 premeditatively, and I’m not saying he did it on

12 his own.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: I’m saying that he might

15 have — it might have just evolved that way, and it

16 might have evolved that [tape irregularity] desire,

17 so I’m blaming all three of them, but when I come

18 to that [tape irregularity], it really makes me

19 hate June because the family was inviolate, [tape

20 irregularity] felt about it. There was nothing I

21 had.

22 I mean, you came in this family and

23 made it better. It was great. Someone else comes

24 along and breaks it up.

25 You know how [tape irregularity].

143

1 Okay. So do I [tape irregularity] coming into the

2 family who’s going to do good things for the

3 family.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean —

5 MR. CHANDLER: Michael divided and

6 conquered, Dave.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: He what?

8 MR. CHANDLER: He divided and

9 conquered.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

11 MR. CHANDLER: He did, Dave. He did.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh —

13 MR. CHANDLER: June and I agreed on the

14 issue, whether it was her side or my side. If we

15 both thought the same way [tape irregularity] any

16 frustration. The fact is we both do not think the

17 same way, and he — and I sincerely believe that he

18 either consciously [tape irregularity] manipulated

19 that. I think he consciously manipulated that

20 because Michael Jackson [tape irregularity] the

21 smartest streetwise people —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — that I’ve ever met,

24 and if you sit down and have any long conversations

25 with him, [tape irregularity] that guy is extremely

144

1 bright.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So is that good or bad?

3 MR. CHANDLER: That he’s bright?

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: I think that if you use

6 it for bad then you’re evil.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, do you think he’s

8 sensitive?

9 MR. CHANDLER: Do I what?

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know him a

11 lot better than I know him. I don’t know him. I

12 mean, I’ve talked to him a couple times, but —

13 MR. CHANDLER: I thought I knew him.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think he’s

15 sensitive?

16 MR. CHANDLER: I think he’s totally

17 insensitive. I think he’s sensitive — I think

18 he’s an extremely selfish person.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that he

20 knows what was going on?

21 MR. CHANDLER: Of course he knows that.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, this is the

23 bottom line. The bottom line is I abandoned the

24 family.

25 MR. CHANDLER: What?

145

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is I

2 abandoned the family. That’s the bottom line.

3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

4 inaudible) line —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: — so this is —

6 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line

7 is — the bottom line is he took Jordy out of the

8 family with June’s help.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, yes and no, but, I

10 mean, there’s a lot of things, and I — I mean,

11 you’re bright, you’re sensitive —

12 MR. CHANDLER: Why don’t I put it this

13 way, Dave. If you were there all the time, living

14 in that house —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have

16 happened.

17 MR. CHANDLER: That’s right. It

18 wouldn’t have even had a chance to happen.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn’t have

20 happened, and I — it’s all my fault.

21 MR. CHANDLER: No, it isn’t all your

22 fault.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: It is definitely a

24 hundred percent my fault.

25 MR. CHANDLER: I’ll tell you what.

146

1 Whenever you have an argument with somebody, when I

2 have an argument with Monique, when you have an

3 argument with June, if I have an argument with you,

4 it’s rarely one sided. There’s almost — you know,

5 there’s always two sides to every —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. There’s ten sides

7 to every —

8 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

9 inaudible) you can’t tell me, realistically, that

10 June didn’t frustrate the hell out of you so many

11 times that you finally left the house just to be

12 sane, just to be alone and come back to your own

13 sanity to get anyplace with her.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I agree

15 with that completely, but the only thing is

16 what — see, I haven’t only done it with June. I

17 do it in every other relationship and in my work

18 relationships.

19 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then —

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: So it’s my hangup.

21 MR. CHANDLER: — problem with that,

22 then that problem has ultimately ended up bringing

23 the family to this point. But you’re not solely to

24 blame for it. It doesn’t mean that June was

25 still — I didn’t do anything that — they didn’t

147

1 have the right to take my kid away from me, to

2 break up the family.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

4 I’m in my garage. Can I call you back

5 from the house?

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: At the same number?

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: If I don’t call you back

10 in five minutes it means it’s off my pager. Call

11 me at the house.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

13 MR. CHANDLER: I’m in the garage right

14 now.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

16 MR. CHANDLER: Bye.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.

18 —o0o—

19 ///

20 ///

21 ///

22

23

24

25

148

1 CONVERSATION 31

2 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:

3

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Hi. I’m on a cordless

6 phone, so let’s not use —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t you have a regular

8 phone?

9 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, but it’s in the

10 kitchen, and I don’t want to go upstairs.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

12 MR. CHANDLER: I’m still wasted, Man.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as tired as me. Oh,

14 you’re probably as tired as me.

15 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I mean, we just

16 don’t — we don’t have to mention any names.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. If we could do

18 this: If — I’m telling you, and you know

19 I — just talking it out, I mean, I have a definite

20 communication problem in my — I mean, what happens

21 is when I get frustrated or I — I mean, I just

22 withdraw. I’ve been doing it forever. I mean,

23 I’ve done it forever with everything, and it works,

24 you know, for — it works for me. I mean because I

25 get through it and it just works and then I’m back

149

1 and it’s no —

2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, except do you want

3 to know something? That can also be — you think

4 that that’s the best way to do something, but if

5 you look at it closely, I mean, I’ve always been

6 that way too. Nothing’s really worked (inaudible)

7 confrontation, and nothing’s as big a deal as it

8 seems [tape irregularity] —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — except — and so you

11 back off, and everything sort of takes care of

12 itself —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, in time.

14 MR. CHANDLER: — except in this time

15 my looking the other way and my failing to deal

16 with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I

17 believe that.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, are you talking

19 about harmed him in the relationship with you?

20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s for sure.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: But —

22 MR. CHANDLER: — (inaudible) forever.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I think

24 he’s frustrated about me and maybe taking it out on

25 you.

150

1 MR. CHANDLER: No.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because — no. He has

3 said a few things in the past. You know, I’ve

4 disappeared for, you know, long periods of time.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you have.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. And he has

7 mentioned — you know, he’s a real sensitive kid —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you take

9 total blame for it? It’s never one person’s fault.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Now I’m telling you it’s

11 my fault. I know it’s my fault, and —

12 MR. CHANDLER: You see —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: — whatever —

14 MR. CHANDLER: — you think by doing

15 that you might be — you might be doing a lot of

16 harm.

17 How many times can an [tape

18 irregularity] — when there’s two human beings

19 involved, there’s two sides to the story. I mean,

20 it’s automatic. Two people could witness the same

21 story in two different ways. What I’m saying is

22 that I was married to June. I’ve known June

23 since —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. For a long time.

25 MR. CHANDLER: — ’71 or something like

151

1 that, so what I’m saying is that I know her really

2 well. I think I do. Maybe I don’t. I guess I

3 don’t because I suddenly saw a part of her — a

4 side of her which I really hate.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re into

6 survival.

7 MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: They’re into survival —

9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

10 inaudible) are you talking about? What do you mean

11 “survival”? Because why? What makes it — what do

12 you mean?

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, they don’t

14 know what’s going on. I have made them — June’s

15 real macho —

16 MR. CHANDLER: That’s exactly right.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: — on the surface, and

18 underneath she’s just insecure like all of us.

19 Everyone is.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Dave —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Everyone’s insecure.

22 JFK was insecure. Everyone is.

23 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s the bottom line.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Let’s say they

152

1 are.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Now, I haven’t

3 really analyzed this until we’re just talking right

4 now.

5 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I put the blame on me a

7 hundred percent.

8 MR. CHANDLER: You put the blame on

9 you —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely a hundred

11 percent.

12 MR. CHANDLER: I’m sorry. I —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely.

14 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you

15 this way, okay? You put all of — you put the

16 three of them on the stand (simultaneous,

17 inaudible) —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: — any questions, and

20 they will all be asked questions, and they will all

21 have psychological examinations —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

24 inaudible) given lie detector tests.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

153

1 MR. CHANDLER: I’m going to tell you

2 what. There is no excuse in law for June having

3 done what she does. Despite the fact that you

4 might say it’s your fault —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: — whatever you say is

7 going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her

8 own decisions —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — and she made those

11 decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact

12 that, yeah, maybe she’s insecure, maybe she’s macho

13 on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over.

14 Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s gonna give a

17 shit about that. I know what you’re saying.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

19 MR. CHANDLER: And I agree with you,

20 and I think that had you two had a really good

21 [tape irregularity], maybe she wouldn’t have had to

22 do what she did.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

24 MR. CHANDLER: And I know what you’re

25 saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe

154

1 my son is being harmed greatly and that his

2 life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his

3 life [tape irregularity].

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why

5 you think he’s being screwed up.

6 MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but what — I

8 don’t know what evidence. I don’t know what you’re

9 talking about.

10 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you’ll see.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why can’t you tell

12 me? I swear —

13 MR. CHANDLER: You show up in court and

14 you’ll see it on the big fucking screen —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what —

16 MR. CHANDLER: — and then you’ll know

17 what I’m talking about.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: And you’ll hear in on

20 tape recordings.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: You’ll hear it all.

23 You’ll see it all, just like I have.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: It cost me thousands,

155

1 tens of thousands of dollars —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: — to get the

4 information I got, and I — you know I don’t have

5 that kind of money —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — and I spent it, and

8 I’m willing to spend more, and I’m willing —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — to go down

11 financially to —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s

13 going to help Jordy?

14 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy’s — I

15 believe that Jordy’s already irreparably harmed.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: That’s my true belief.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think

19 that he’s fucking him?

20 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t know. I have no

21 idea.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: But harmed in — in just

23 been spoiled?

24 MR. CHANDLER: No.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Just tell me —

156

1 MR. CHANDLER: You know, you gotta

2 forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by

3 my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.

5 MR. CHANDLER: — don’t bother calling

6 him again. He said this case is so open [tape

7 irregularity] “You open your mouth and you blow

8 it,” he said, “just don’t come back to me.”

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I respect that.

10 Okay.

11 MR. CHANDLER: Not that I don’t trust

12 you or anything —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. I respect it.

14 MR. CHANDLER: You have a vested

15 interest in it —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

17 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you

18 this, by the way: What harm would it be to you,

19 what harm would it be to your relationship to June,

20 if Michael wasn’t around anymore?

21 You say that you [tape irregularity]

22 your fault. You say that you made her insecure.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait.

24 MR. CHANDLER: So if he wasn’t around

25 anymore —

157

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

2 MR. CHANDLER: — what do you think

3 she’s going to do? She’s going to come back to

4 you.

5 She doesn’t need you anymore. She

6 doesn’t even want you around anymore. She’s told

7 me and she’s told you — I’m sure she’s told you

8 that if [tape irregularity] Michael she’ll get rid

9 of you. She’s told me that. She means it.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

11 MR. CHANDLER: She means —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told

13 you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying

14 her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And

15 then when he did buy her things and she told me, I

16 got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s

17 really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked

18 about.

19 MR. CHANDLER: How do you feel about

20 her going off on tour with him? You told me when

21 you were there the other day that everybody’s been

22 calling you saying “Your wife’s been [tape

23 irregularity]” —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: It does [tape

25 irregularity] —

158

1 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you

2 something, by the way. That’s the best thing that

3 could happen to him, is that people think he’s

4 interested in June.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no

7 interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn’t

8 even care about her. He doesn’t even like her.

9 He’s [tape irregularity] —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think he likes

11 her?

12 MR. CHANDLER: I know he doesn’t. He

13 told me he doesn’t. He can’t stand her. He told

14 me that when —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can’t stand

16 her?

17 MR. CHANDLER: No. He told me that

18 when he was in my house.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he

21 liked us better than — Jordy too. Jordy’s the

22 same as Michael. It was a simple divide and

23 conquer. They felt us both out.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: They saw who was going

159

1 to let them do what they wanted to do, and then

2 they made their choice.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: And until I had a talk

5 with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — they were gonna come

8 live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave

9 June’s house, and come here.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: That’s what they were

12 going to do, because they were getting more

13 resistance from her than they were getting from me.

14 You cannot tell this stuff — you cannot — I’m

15 confiding in you, okay, Dave?

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Right? That’s —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.

19 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s to know this

20 conversation —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

23 inaudible) except you and me; is that right?

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

25 MR. CHANDLER: You promise me?

160

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I promise you.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What I’m telling

3 you is that Jordy and Michael are users.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: They had — they were

6 gonna — they had their own relationship.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: They want to carry it

9 out the way they want to carry it out. They don’t

10 want anybody getting in the way [tape

11 irregularity] — least resistance, and that’s the

12 way they’re going. They simply divided and

13 conquered, and June went along with it. And she

14 was wrong because she did it to the detriment of

15 Jordy.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is not old enough

18 to make these kind of [tape irregularity] that he’s

19 making.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: But is that a huge life

21 decision?

22 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, you bet it is.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you — were

24 you — let me ask you this: Did you ever pull away

25 from your parents when you were a teenager?

161

1 MR. CHANDLER: I hated my parents.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think Jordy hates

3 you?

4 MR. CHANDLER: If he doesn’t, he’s

5 gonna hate me tomorrow.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you —

7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

8 inaudible) to —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want that?

10 MR. CHANDLER: It doesn’t matter what I

11 want.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why would you want

13 him to hate you, and why would you want to put him

14 through that —

15 MR. CHANDLER: Because all I care about

16 is what happens to him in the long run.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the long run, is

18 that going to be healthy in the long run?

19 MR. CHANDLER: According to the

20 experts?

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: Absolutely.

23 According to the experts, if it goes on

24 the way it is, he’s doomed. He has no chance of

25 ever being a happy, healthy, normal human being, no

162

1 [tape irregularity].

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So what happens if you

3 force him not to see him?

4 MR. CHANDLER: Not to see Michael?

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody’s saying for sure

7 what will happen. Most people’s feeling is that

8 he’s gonna go on and hate me for a long time and

9 then some day when he gets older he’ll thank me.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you

11 think he hates you now?

12 MR. CHANDLER: I said I think

13 he’ll — I said he may or may not hate me now —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — but he’ll definitely

16 hate me tomorrow.

17 He’ll hate me, why? Because I’m taking

18 Michael away from him. That’s why.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: And that’s a —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: So you really think

22 Michael’s bad for him?

23 MR. CHANDLER: I know Michael’s bad for

24 him.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

163

1 MR. CHANDLER: You know how I know

2 that?

3 Why would somebody, Dave — if you tell

4 me this, think of this logically. What reason

5 would he want us split up — [tape irregularity]

6 would he want me out of the way? What would be the

7 reason, unless he has something to hide?

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But —

9 MR. CHANDLER: I know what he has to

10 hide. I happen to know what it is.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: But I can’t tell you.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

14 MR. CHANDLER: I’m just asking you in

15 terms of logic. You know me. I’m not — I’m a

16 pretty liberal guy.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: I don’t get in anybody’s

19 way, okay? So, I mean, what reason would he want

20 me out of the way to such an extent that neither

21 one of them will take my phone calls, neither one

22 of them will talk to me?

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think Jordy’s taken my

24 route of just withdrawing.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Well, one of the lessons

164

1 he’s gonna learn is that that route doesn’t work.

2 See, you just learned that lesson yourself. By you

3 withdrawing, as you said in your own words, you’re

4 the cause of this whole problem.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I think I am.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. So that’s what

7 withdrawal does for you.

8 My approach to the whole thing is that

9 the one person — the person who doesn’t talk is

10 the one who’s wrong, period —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — no matter what the

13 action was, I believe everything is preventable,

14 every bad action that anybody takes is — unless

15 you’re truly pathologic —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: — is probably

18 preventable if you just found somebody who would

19 sit [tape irregularity] you know what? They don’t

20 even have to talk back and give you [tape

21 irregularity] if you get it out, everything will be

22 okay, you know, but that’s my approach. My

23 approach is that the people who don’t talk are the

24 ones who are wrong.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: And I agree with that,

165

1 totally.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you’re wrong.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. I —

4 MR. CHANDLER: You (inaudible) —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: I just said I am wrong,

6 but here is the other — I mean, the thing is

7 Jordy’s 13 years old. I’m talking about adults. I

8 mean, I don’t know if he — I mean, you’re his dad.

9 You’re his role model.

10 MR. CHANDLER: No, I’m not his role

11 model.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, you are,

13 definitely —

14 MR. CHANDLER: Not anymore.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: You are, positively, in

16 the long run, you’re his role model.

17 MR. CHANDLER: There is no — there

18 isn’t gonna be a long run if things went on like

19 this.

20 Don’t you see? As long as I go along

21 with whatever they want to do —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — everything’s okay.

24 As soon as I say you can’t [tape irregularity]

25 anybody —

166

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you go through that?

2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I went through

3 that.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: And how old were you?

5 MR. CHANDLER: Why do you — oh, with

6 my parents?

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: No, I didn’t go through

9 that with my parents. I never had any outside

10 influence on me —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — was more powerful

13 than my parents were.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, Michael is

15 very seductive, without even trying.

16 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, he’s trying, believe

17 me. He just looks like he’s not trying because

18 he’s so damn good at it.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, it’s —

20 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, he fooled me —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — I’ll tell you that.

23 He fooled me, for a while.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think

25 this is —

167

1 MR. CHANDLER: There’s no reason why

2 they would have to cut me out unless they — unless

3 they need me to be away so they can do certain

4 things which I don’t think are good to be doing.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: And I — and not only

7 that, but I don’t even have anything to say about

8 it, okay? [tape irregularity] I think what they’re

9 doing and it isn’t bad, and so maybe I’m wrong —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not even

12 getting a chance to express that.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think that’s all — I

14 think it’s all fair because —

15 MR. CHANDLER: I had a good

16 communication with Michael.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: We were friends, you

19 know. I liked him.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: I respected him and

22 everything else for what he is, you know. There

23 was no reason why he had to stop calling me. He

24 could have called me.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

168

1 MR. CHANDLER: In fact, Dave, I — you

2 ask Jordy. I sat in the room one day, and I talked

3 to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of

4 this whole relationship, what I want [tape

5 irregularity], okay, so he wouldn’t have to figure

6 me out.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: And one of things I said

9 is we always have to be able to talk to each other.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: That’s the rule, okay,

12 because I know that as soon as you stop talking

13 weird things start going on and people [tape

14 irregularity] —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Imaginations take over.

16 MR. CHANDLER: Imagination will just

17 kill you.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

19 MR. CHANDLER: It causes all kinds of

20 problems, and so, I mean —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, can you do

22 this —

23 MR. CHANDLER: Do you think

24 you — look. Do you know what it’s like? You go

25 out with — listen. I — just that old expression,

169

1 you know. It came from some movie. How does it

2 go? “Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean

3 somebody isn’t [tape irregularity].”

4 You know that expression?

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What it really

7 means is that you may think I’m crazy —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

10 inaudible) I’m thinking is actually right, but what

11 I’m saying to you is that I’ve had every single

12 girl — and I am not kidding you — every [tape

13 irregularity] ever gone out with, from the very

14 first girl to the very last, has cheated on me, and

15 I have never cheated on anybody.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: I would never.

18 Now, if I wanted to, based on that

19 history, I could be so fucking paranoid about

20 girls, I would never —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — be able to [tape

23 irregularity] relationship. I wouldn’t be able to

24 [tape irregularity] was like, I couldn’t have a

25 family. I’d be a fucking raving lunatic. Okay?

170

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: But what’s my point? My

3 point is that the only thing that keeps me from

4 getting that way is that I can talk about it and be

5 reassured [tape irregularity] on it in my

6 imagination — I mean, my wife’s not home tonight.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: She’s gonna be at a

9 meeting until 2:00 o’clock in the morning.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

11 MR. CHANDLER: Right? This has

12 happened many times.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: She’s going to go away

15 to Cannes Film Festival next year —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: — right? Do you know

18 what that’s like?

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: That Film Festival’s a

21 fucking sex party.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: Next year, without me,

24 okay? Now, if I didn’t have a chance to talk to

25 her about my fears, my [tape irregularity],

171

1 probably shoot her, or I’d divorce her.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: And I’m not saying her

4 as an individual. Wouldn’t matter who — I could

5 be married to Mother Teresa and I’d have the same

6 feeling. It’s just because of what [tape

7 irregularity] that I’ve been — my finger’s been

8 stuck in the electric socket so much that I don’t

9 want to get stuck in there again, so I keep — and

10 girls do that to me, you know? They keep fucking

11 me up, so —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: So what was —

13 MR. CHANDLER: — bothers me. I might

14 be totally irrational —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — but you want to know

17 why I’m not crazy about it at all and I have a

18 great relationship and I trust her and everything

19 is fine?

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: Because she’ll sit down

22 and she’ll talk to me about it.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: And she’s wildly in love

24 with you.

25 MR. CHANDLER: She tells me she is.

172

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: She is.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, it’s very

4 obvious.

5 MR. CHANDLER: And you want to know

6 what I told her? I told her this. I said

7 June — “Monique,” I said, “if you ever want to sleep

8 with somebody else or if you don’t love me anymore,

9 if you come to me and you tell me that [tape

10 irregularity] out of the house and fuck his brains

11 out, I’ll love you forever, I’ll support you and

12 wish you well. But if it’s the other way around,

13 you fuck him first and then you [tape

14 irregularity], I’ll kill you, period.” I said,

15 “Those are the rules. If you want to stay with me,

16 you gotta understand that’s the only way I can

17 survive. That’s how I live.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: It’s all comes — that’s

20 what really relationships —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, trust is real

22 important.

23 MR. CHANDLER: When you get down to

24 relationships like we — like really intimate ones,

25 okay?

173

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Like you and I. I trust

3 you with my life.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

5 MR. CHANDLER: And I know you trust me

6 too.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

8 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? And with Moniquw, I

9 said, “That’s all I’m after.”

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: What does she say?

11 MR. CHANDLER: She said, “I understand.

12 That’s fine.” She said, “It’ll never happen. I

13 don’t know why you’re bringing it up, but if you’re

14 bringing it up, I won’t do it. Trust me. It won’t

15 happen.”

16 I said, “Okay. I’m just — I’m telling

17 you now ahead of time” —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s good

19 communication.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, I’m not

21 being embarrassed by it —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — I’m not keeping it

24 inside. I want to have a good marriage and a good

25 relationship

174

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: — and I know this is

3 one issue that bothers me, no matter who that girl

4 would be.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? I’m not —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: In any —

8 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

9 inaudible) personal against her.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

11 MR. CHANDLER: It’s just with me. It’s

12 my problem, and so I’m letting her know that I have

13 a problem. I’m not hiding anything. I’d not

14 trying to be macho cool dude about it.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

16 MR. CHANDLER: And so if I wasn’t able

17 to talk to her, this marriage would have been over

18 a long time ago.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Because [tape

21 irregularity] —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don’t we learn like

23 that?

24 MR. CHANDLER: Because of my

25 imagination, Dave.

175

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but don’t we learn

2 through experiences —

3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

4 inaudible) want to know what I really think? I

5 really think most people don’t learn. I think at

6 some point in our lives we develop behavior

7 patterns, and even if we know that they’re wrong we

8 just can’t break them.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: You know —

10 MR. CHANDLER: Most people can’t change

11 their behaviors.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

13 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

14 inaudible) they are at a certain —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes and no, but I think

16 you get —

17 MR. CHANDLER: Look at you. Are you

18 going to change now because of what happened here?

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, interesting —

20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

21 inaudible) be different? Is your marriage going to

22 be better? Are you going to — you know, you guys

23 have no right to be married. I told June that

24 myself many times. She would call me all the time

25 and say, “Did Dave call Kelly? Did Dave call

176

1 Jordy?”

2 No.

3 What kind of fucking marriage do you

4 guys have? Why don’t you guys just split up so he

5 could see his kids, at least —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: You know, if he doesn’t

8 want to come over to the house because of you, then

9 get divorced so he could see his kids. There’s

10 nothing wrong with that. You know, you might be

11 better friends. She and I were better friends when

12 we [tape irregularity], and what I’m saying to her

13 is that if there’s no — if there’s no

14 communication, there’s no sense in being together

15 with anybody, whether it’s a marriage or a

16 friendship or a business relationship. If you

17 cannot sit down and talk [tape irregularity]

18 ultimately gonna destruct, and that’s what happened

19 here. They shut me out from the most important

20 thing in my life. In fact, I don’t have a life. I

21 don’t want to have a life [tape irregularity].

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I understand it, too,

23 but I gotta tell you, in just talking to you this

24 time, see, Jordy’s copying me.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Well —

177

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, he’s positively

2 copying me. I mean, he’s been with both of us

3 since — I mean, I’ve had him since he’s — almost

4 as long as you have.

5 MR. CHANDLER: That’s right.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: And he’s —

7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

8 inaudible) had him as long as he’s been cognizant

9 of the fact of who’s around him —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, so —

11 MR. CHANDLER: — learned a lot from

12 you.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and one of the

14 things he learned, probably, was just to withdraw,

15 because I do it, but, you know, I’m not chastising

16 myself for it. I’m just looking at it objectively.

17 I mean, realistically. I mean, I would say —

18 MR. CHANDLER: You haven’t (inaudible)

19 and in some way it’s resonated throughout the

20 family —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — and partly been the

23 cause of all this happening.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, but I mean he’s,

25 you know, he’s learned a lot of good things from

178

1 me.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I’m sure he —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, I mean,

4 everyone’s not perfect.

5 MR. CHANDLER: No. Everyone’s not.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I think —

7 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) expect

8 everyone to be, but you gotta expect people that

9 claim to love you to communicate with you because

10 if there’s communication there’s nothing.

11 What’s the sense of having your

12 relationship? People don’t even care enough about

13 you to — you tell them — I actually told June how

14 much I was hurting. I said —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — “I’m hurting, June.

17 I’m crying every day. I’m dying.”

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they’re going

19 through every —

20 MR. CHANDLER: Do you know what she

21 said to me?

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What?

23 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s just too

24 bad.

25 Fuck that.

179

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but you can’t — I

2 mean, you know June.

3 MR. CHANDLER: I can’t make excuses for

4 June.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: There’s no way to

6 make — there’s nothing to make an excuse. I mean,

7 we all have our good points and our bad points, and

8 we all have things that —

9 MR. CHANDLER: I think, you know, her

10 bad points [tape irregularity] gone too far. I

11 really do.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think you gotta look

13 at the overall picture. I mean, now we’re

14 talking —

15 MR. CHANDLER: I am looking at — I’m

16 looking at Jordy’s picture. That’s the only

17 picture I’m looking at. I — June’s not part of

18 it.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: But do you think that —

20 MR. CHANDLER: I know that after

21 tomorrow — in fact, not even after tomorrow. It’s

22 already happened. I don’t ever want anything to do

23 with June anymore because June is not part of my

24 family. In my mind, she’s died. I don’t ever want

25 to talk to her again. [tape irregularity] sitting

180

1 on the stand being totally humiliated or at the end

2 of a shotgun. That’s the only way I want to see

3 June now. She’s gotta [tape irregularity] do this

4 to kid. Again, it’s not right. Can do it to me.

5 Can’t do it to my kid. It’s not right.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think

7 that whatever’s happening, if you think it’s bad

8 for him, she’s done, you know, out of malice?

9 MR. CHANDLER: You want to know

10 something? You don’t even have to ask me. You

11 could — as you said before, you want to sit down

12 and talk to the people I spoke to —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: — you’re going to have

15 a chance to do that if you want to. You go and ask

16 the experts —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — and you won’t have to

19 ask. They will be there anyway.

20 There’s not one person in this world

21 [tape irregularity] can’t find a person —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — disagree with me.

24 I’m the one that disagreed with — I

25 didn’t even want to know about it.

181

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: I kept saying, “No, this

3 is okay. There’s nothing wrong. This is great.”

4 It took experts to convince me [tape

5 irregularity] that by not taking action —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: — my son was going to

8 be irreparably damaged for the rest of his life

9 [tape irregularity]. That was what I heard.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because his friend is

11 older, or because of all the seduction?

12 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, age in

13 and of itself is not a harmful thing.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been

16 used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is

17 using his age and experience and his money and his

18 power to great advantage to Jordy. The problem is

19 he’s also harming him, greatly harming him, for his

20 own selfish reasons. He’s not the altruistic, kind

21 human being that he appears to be.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think —

23 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

24 inaudible) selfish motives here.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, harming Jordy

182

1 because it’s taken him out of reality?

2 MR. CHANDLER: It’s not so much really

3 what he’s taken him out of. It’s what he’s brought

4 him into.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t mean to

7 be devious. I just can’t be —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: You can’t tell me.

9 MR. CHANDLER: — specific about it,

10 but I tell you that, again, it all comes down to

11 one thing. They don’t want to talk to me.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy — yeah, he’s 13

14 years old. He’s only [tape irregularity], hoping

15 that the problem will go away by itself, but June’s

16 old enough to know better.

17 June’s the one that’s frustrated me.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, this is

19 the deal: I talked to Jordy about it today, about,

20 you know, his not contacting you and not calling

21 you on Father’s Day and not sending you anything.

22 He’s confused June — and this is the truth and

23 from him. June did everything to get him to send

24 you a card, to call and everything. He’s just

25 frustrated, you know, and I don’t know about what

183

1 or — you know, it’s just like he’s scared or

2 doesn’t know what to do or —

3 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible).

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

5 MR. CHANDLER: June didn’t do a thing

6 to have him call me or send me a card by her own

7 admission to me last time. She didn’t give a shit,

8 is what she told me.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but I don’t

10 believe that because, I mean —

11 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

12 inaudible) told me.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because, I mean —

14 MR. CHANDLER: I —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: With June and — I

16 talked to them today.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, she’s lying

18 to you, Dave.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but would Jordy

20 lie?

21 MR. CHANDLER: Now they’re scared shit.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. Would Jordy — no,

23 because they don’t know anything about it. I

24 didn’t even tell them that I had talked to you this

25 morning, okay?

184

1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

2 inaudible) them know you heard the message.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: And what are you going

5 there all of a sudden? You haven’t been there —

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Last night’s the first

7 night I’ve been there.

8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. By accident?

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, it’s Kelly’s

10 birthday. I mean, you know, I got — it’s tough

11 for me too. It’s not easy. I mean, you don’t

12 really know what’s going on with me, but, I mean,

13 it’s very, very, very difficult times for me.

14 MR. CHANDLER: So what?

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Very.

16 MR. CHANDLER: So what you’re saying is

17 that because of your problem you sacrifice the

18 kids.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I did it —

20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

21 inaudible) money all during —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I just — I

23 fucked up, but —

24 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you fucked up.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but —

185

1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

2 inaudible) I’m not fucking up —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: — when you’re trying to

4 survive —

5 MR. CHANDLER: Hey, Dave, it doesn’t

6 matter. You want to know something? When my

7 father was dying of cancer —

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: — and he had — and he

10 got in a car crash that crushed his leg and his

11 spinal cord —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: — at the same time and

14 he was in incredible pain —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — I used to talk to him

17 about it —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: — and he would say,

20 “You know what?”

21 I’d say, “Why don’t you — you never

22 talk — you never talk about it, you never complain

23 to anybody.”

24 He said, “You know what? Because

25 everybody’s got their own problems, and nobody’s

186

1 gonna think that my problem’s any worse than their

2 problem.”

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: And so as bad as your

5 problem is [tape irregularity] it may not be on the

6 same scale, but emotionally, financially,

7 psychologically, it’s devastating me as much as

8 [tape irregularity].

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: And I accept that.

10 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I — let me —

12 MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you this:

13 That as bad as my life is, I’m willing to let it

14 get a lot worse —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — and sacrifice

17 whatever it is — and I don’t even consider it a

18 sacrifice — give up whatever it is so that my son

19 won’t be damaged.

20 You’re not willing to do that. You

21 fall apart just to save one of your kids [tape

22 irregularity] away from my practice, from my

23 family, from my wife, from Cody, from everybody

24 else, do whatever I have to do —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’ll

187

1 save Jordy? I mean, don’t you think there’s a

2 happy medium?

3 MR. CHANDLER: No. We’re not gonna

4 save him. June’s not gonna save him. Who’s gonna

5 save him? Gotta be me.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you really

7 think he has —

8 MR. CHANDLER: — one.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don’t think it’s

10 just gonna run its course?

11 MR. CHANDLER: Dave . . .

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know more

13 than I know, so I’m at a disadvantage.

14 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, I will tell

15 you without question. It’s gone way too far.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is never going to

18 be the same person he was.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: It’s never — by the

21 time it runs its course —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — if it does, he will

24 be so damaged he’ll never recover —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

188

1 MR. CHANDLER: — and that’s not my

2 opinion. I mean, I happen to be believe it now

3 because my eyes have been opened —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: — but I’m not the one

6 that first [tape irregularity], so what I’m saying

7 to you is that I’m acting because [tape

8 irregularity] I’m going to cause him great harm,

9 and you tell me if maybe it’s gonna cause him harm

10 right now. I think he’ll be harmed much greater if

11 I do nothing, and besides now I’m convinced that if

12 I do nothing I’m going to be, from doing nothing,

13 causing him harm, and I couldn’t —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you discuss that

15 with Monique?

16 MR. CHANDLER: Not really.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t want her

19 involved. I mean, she would just like the whole

20 thing to go away.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: But we’ve had a nice

23 little relationship and a great new marriage and a

24 nice little family —

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

189

1 MR. CHANDLER: — and everything’s

2 terrific over here.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, I’ve

5 tried to explain to Cody why his brother doesn’t

6 call him and he doesn’t come over here. You know

7 [tape irregularity] whole world, and I’m not

8 exaggerating.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) Jordy.

10 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. You ask Monique

11 when you speak to her if he doesn’t bring it up

12 every conversation —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: — (simultaneous,

15 inaudible) out during the day.

16 Cody spent about two weeks crying his

17 eyes out. He’d have nightmares about Jordy. He’d

18 get up in the middle of the night and come crying

19 into our bed.

20 I’d listen to him talk, and I would

21 break down —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — and I couldn’t

24 even — I mean, I couldn’t even — I couldn’t — I

25 didn’t know what to say to him, you know? What can

190

1 you say?

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing

4 I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that?

5 13 years old. There’s no — you know, and a [tape

6 irregularity] just come into it?

7 I ask you this: If Michael Jackson

8 were just some 34-year-old person, would this be

9 happening? No. He’s got power, he’s got money,

10 he’s got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening

11 [tape irregularity] they’ve been seduced away from

12 the family by power and by money.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: And by this guy’s image.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same

17 person without the power and the money, and they

18 wouldn’t even be talking to him. You know it and I

19 know it. So for power and money and his image,

20 June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even

21 though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because

22 I’ve sat down and talked to him, and I’ve told him

23 long before it came down to going this far —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: — that Cody was really

191

1 hysterical about him.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: And what does he say?

3 MR. CHANDLER: He said that he would,

4 you know, he would call him and he’d talk to him

5 and stuff, and he tried, you know.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: As time went on, the

8 times between when he did call or see Cody got

9 longer and longer and longer and longer until [tape

10 irregularity] anymore.

11 And you know what? He would do the

12 same thing to Kelly. Kelly just happens to have to

13 come along because June has to happen to come

14 along —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — but if [tape

17 irregularity] now, June wouldn’t be in the picture

18 and neither would Kelly, any more than I am.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: They would have dumped

21 her a long time ago. They even told me [tape

22 irregularity]. They can’t stand her.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Jordy can’t stand

24 June?

25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Neither one of

192

1 them like her. They don’t like anybody but each

2 other.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: They don’t like you, and

5 they don’t like me and they don’t like her. They

6 don’t want anybody coming between them. [tape

7 irregularity] got to be eliminated.

8 You go ahead and you see — you tell

9 June. You tell June to start saying “No” to

10 everything they want —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — and see what happens.

13 The only reason she’s there is because

14 she says “Yes” [tape irregularity] favorite as long

15 as I was saying “Yes.”

16 Trust me. I don’t know what’s happened

17 to Jordy except he doesn’t care, literally does not

18 care, if he would ever see him again. He hopes I

19 would go away and not bother him. That’s [tape

20 irregularity].

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I know that’s not

22 true.

23 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

24 inaudible) Michael.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know that’s not true.

193

1 MR. CHANDLER: I’m telling you. But

2 that doesn’t matter, you know. I’m not taking it

3 personally. I’m just trying to do what I have been

4 led to believe is the right action to take so that

5 he’s not harmed.

6 I mean, Unfortunately, June and [tape

7 irregularity] because in order to protect Jordy

8 certain things are gonna have to come out, and

9 those two are not going to have any defense against

10 it whatsoever. They’re just going to be [tape

11 irregularity] violently destroyed.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that it

13 helps Jordy?

14 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, it’ll help Jordy

15 because he won’t — he’ll never see Michael again.

16 That’s —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think

18 that —

19 MR. CHANDLER: And he’s probably never

20 gonna see June again if I have to go through with

21 this.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think —

23 MR. CHANDLER: Unless I’d let him.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that would

25 affect him?

194

1 MR. CHANDLER: What?

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: That he was — that this

3 was done by force?

4 MR. CHANDLER: You mean that Michael

5 did this to him?

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that you, like, are

7 forcing him not to see someone or take him away

8 from his mom?

9 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I am gonna force

10 him not to see —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but do you think

12 that’s the right way to do it?

13 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I’ve been led to

14 believe that it’s the right thing to do.

15 In fact, it’s the right thing to do

16 because how do you know? You don’t know what —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t have a clue.

18 MR. CHANDLER: Suppose you were to find

19 out what they’re doing and you were to agree with

20 me that these things that they’re doing are harmful

21 to Jordy or —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’d like to know.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — be harmful.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, in my wildest

25 imagination I can’t figure out what it is.

195

1 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. But suppose —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Unless it’s sex, and I

3 don’t know, you know.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Suppose that you were to

5 find out that there were things going on that you

6 believed were harmful to him? Would you say to me,

7 “Hey, look. You know, I got things to do here

8 [tape irregularity], but, you know, time will go by

9 and everything will be okay”? I mean, that’s —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. What I would

11 do — I’m not disagreeing with you.

12 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, they won’t

13 talk to me about those things. They won’t talk to

14 me about anything.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Even about what you

16 think they’re doing or about what you know they’re

17 doing?

18 MR. CHANDLER: What I know they’re

19 doing.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I’ve tried to

22 talk to Jordy. Jordy — Jordy does not talk to me.

23 This stopped long before I told him he couldn’t

24 [tape irregularity]. He just does not talk to me

25 anymore. In fact, when he talks to Michael on the

196

1 telephone, he goes in another room because I’m not

2 allowed to hear what they’re talking about except I

3 taped [tape irregularity] they’re talking about.

4 Ha ha ha.

5 Anyway, all I’m saying is that [tape

6 irregularity] that I would be negligent to continue

7 to do nothing [tape irregularity] gonna be because

8 nobody really knows how Jordy will be affected one

9 way or the other.

10 I know for a fact that he’s going to be

11 affected adversely if I do nothing.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: So I have nothing to

14 lose.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Would you do me a big

16 favor?

17 MR. CHANDLER: What?

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Could you and I go to

19 one of these shrinks and talk it over?

20 MR. CHANDLER: No.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not?

22 MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late,

23 after 8:30 tomorrow.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why not? Why

25 couldn’t we go talk it over —

197

1 MR. CHANDLER: Because the thing’s

2 already — the thing has already been set in

3 motion.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: It’s happening at 8:30.

6 8:36 tomorrow —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — it’s out of my hands.

9 I do nothing else again —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: — after 8:36 tomorrow.

12 It’s all been automatically set in

13 motion.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not even in contact

16 anymore —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: — with this person.

19 This thing is —

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you this,

21 then.

22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

23 inaudible) 8:36, unless I call in —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: — and tell him not to

198

1 do it.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So why don’t you call

3 and say not to do it?

4 MR. CHANDLER: Because I’m not going

5 to.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why wouldn’t you

7 go with me? I mean, we trust each other. We

8 respect each other. Why couldn’t you go with me

9 and we’d decide together?

10 MR. CHANDLER: Because I don’t want to

11 talk to you about it.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

13 MR. CHANDLER: I want to talk to June

14 and Jordy and Michael —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but why can’t you

16 talk to me? I mean, I’m — I could be very —

17 MR. CHANDLER: — be there tomorrow

18 and —

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

20 MR. CHANDLER: You can be there at the

21 meeting tomorrow, and you can get a chance to talk

22 to him —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: — if you want to, but

25 if they don’t say, “Well, there’s not going to be a

199

1 meeting” —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.

3 MR. CHANDLER: — I want to talk to

4 them. I don’t want to talk to you.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Because you have had

7 your head buried in Rent A Wreck, and you have no

8 idea what’s going on —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — and just because you

11 all of a sudden decide to have some interest in

12 [tape irregularity] I don’t [tape irregularity]

13 going on. It will take you weeks to catch up —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — you’ll never know

16 what’s going on by explanation.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

18 MR. CHANDLER: You’d have to have lived

19 it. You’d have to have witnessed it. Myself would

20 never have believed it —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — if I didn’t live

23 through it, see it and hear it.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: I would not have

200

1 believed it. And that’s all. I cannot take this

2 [tape irregularity] over to you because that’s the

3 only way you’re gonna know it.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: The evidence is already

6 locked up in a safe place —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — and it’s gonna come

9 out only [tape irregularity] let it come out, and

10 that’s it. If they don’t talk to me tomorrow, out

11 it comes.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Well, but let me

13 ask you this- –

14 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

15 inaudible) Michael Jackson — Michael Jackson’s

16 career, Dave. This man is gonna be humiliated

17 beyond belief. You’ll not believe it. He will not

18 believe what’s going to happen to him.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Beyond his worst

21 nightmares. [tape irregularity] not sell one more

22 record.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: That’s for sure. And I

25 mean I’m [tape irregularity] it just has to happen

201

1 in order to get — to keep [tape irregularity] and

2 it doesn’t have to happen if they show up tomorrow.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

4 MR. CHANDLER: But if they don’t show

5 up — and I’ve made it very clear — I’ve tried to

6 make it really clear on that answering machine,

7 “This is the last chance to talk. If you talk, we

8 have a chance. If we don’t talk, it’s all over.”

9 It’s out of my hands. I mean, what

10 else can I do?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don’t — you know, I

12 don’t —

13 MR. CHANDLER: What’s the disadvantage

14 to you if Michael Jackson’s destroyed and out of

15 the family? What good is he doing you?

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: What harms it — well,

17 it has nothing to — I’m only thinking of Jordy.

18 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

19 inaudible) come over to talk to you, you seemed

20 pretty damned upset that everybody was telling you

21 that Michael Jackson has taken your family away

22 from you. You even went so far as to tell me you

23 couldn’t get bank loans because of that [tape

24 irregularity] turn around completely 180 degrees.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: It’s not turning around

202

1 180.

2 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

3 inaudible) for Michael Jackson.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what I’m

5 concerned about.

6 MR. CHANDLER: What?

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’m concerned about

8 Jordy.

9 MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you were

10 concerned about Jordy, you should have been around

11 a long time ago, because I have been.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: Where have you been?

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I’ve been there

15 plenty for him. I mean, in the 13 years I’ve been

16 there a lot.

17 MR. CHANDLER: I agree —

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say —

19 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

20 inaudible) day —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say this: So I

22 made a few mistakes, but —

23 MR. CHANDLER: Why —

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I can’t condemn myself

25 for it.

203

1 MR. CHANDLER: Well, why all of a

2 sudden do you not want to be there?

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did I not want to be

4 there?

5 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I’ve been in a

7 survival mode.

8 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, okay.

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: And, you know —

10 MR. CHANDLER: The fact of the matter

11 is —

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: You know, you do what

13 you have to do, and sometimes you make the wrong

14 move, and sometimes your emotions make you do it,

15 and sometimes it’s just — it’s the way that you

16 face it. Sometimes you —

17 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

18 inaudible) survival mode, and so you’re doing what

19 you’re doing, and I’m not in a survival mode. I’m

20 trying for him to survive —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what I —

22 MR. CHANDLER: — doing what I think —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell you what. I

24 would die for that kid. I mean, I have — you

25 don’t know what I’ve done for that kid.

204

1 MR. CHANDLER: Easy to say that, Dave,

2 but when you tell me you’re in a survival mode so

3 you can’t pay attention to your children, it

4 doesn’t jive with “I would die for that kid.”

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. I’m ashamed of

6 that. I’m not proud of that, but when you —

7 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, how do you — I

8 mean, which of those two statements should I choose

9 to believe, because they’re both entirely opposite

10 each other?

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well —

12 MR. CHANDLER: “I would die for that

13 kid” or “I’m” —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: If I had —

15 MR. CHANDLER: — “in a survival mode

16 and I” —

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would do anything for

18 Jordy. I would lose everything. I would die for

19 Jordy. That’s the bottom line.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Then why don’t you just

21 back me up right now and let’s get rid of Michael

22 Jackson.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t know the

24 facts.

25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, when you

205

1 know —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, I don’t —

3 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. When you know the

4 facts, when you see the facts come out, then you’ll

5 make a decision at that point.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. That’s fair.

7 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, that’s more than

9 fair, but this — let me —

10 MR. CHANDLER: It’s unfortunately gonna

11 be too late, then, and nothing’s gonna matter at

12 that point.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

14 MR. CHANDLER: Because the fact is so

15 fucking overwhelming —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

17 MR. CHANDLER: — that everybody’s

18 going to be destroyed in the process.

19 The facts themselves are gonna — once

20 this thing starts rolling —

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: — the facts themselves

23 are gonna overwhelm. It’s gonna be bigger than all

24 of us put together, and the whole thing’s just

25 gonna crash down on everybody and destroy everybody

206

1 in its sight. That’s [tape irregularity]

2 humiliating, believe me.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And is that good?

4 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. It’s great.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?

6 MR. CHANDLER: Great, because —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, is that how

8 you’re —

9 MR. CHANDLER: Because June and Jordy

10 and Michael —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — have forced me to

13 take it to the extreme —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — to get their

16 attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to

17 have done that. I’ve tried to get their

18 attention —

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: — I’ve cried on the

21 phone, I’ve talked on the phone —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: — I have begged on the

24 phone, and all I get back is, “Go fuck yourself” on

25 the phone, and so now I’m still trying to get their

207

1 attention until 8:30 tomorrow for their [tape

2 irregularity], and I will know that even having

3 gone this far they won’t talk to me, then I know

4 that I’m absolutely right in doing what I’m doing

5 because they have left me no other [tape

6 irregularity]. I am not allowed to talk to [tape

7 irregularity], and so since they’re sending me that

8 message and telling me that —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — they leave me no

11 choice. They will not let me say to them, “This is

12 what’s bothering me, and this is what I’d like to

13 do about it. What do you think?”

14 They’re saying, “We don’t care what you

15 have to think — say about [tape irregularity].”

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean by no

17 communication?

18 MR. CHANDLER: Am I supposed to just

19 bury my head? No. Not when my kid’s involved.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: I can’t. So it’s their

22 fault. Everything’s their fault, one hundred

23 percent, and the reason it’s their fault [tape

24 irregularity] try to communicate, and they have

25 time after time frustrated my attempts to talk by

208

1 telling me, “Go fuck yourself.”

2 And when you do that to somebody,

3 consistently, you drive them to do something [tape

4 irregularity]. I’m not an evil person. I don’t

5 want to do this.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: It’s their fault because

8 they won’t talk. They have one more chance. I’ve

9 told them this. That’s why I left that message.

10 The message was very harsh [tape irregularity] and

11 it was very true, and it was to let them know that

12 I am not kidding around.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: I’m begging them. That

15 message was begging, one more time —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: — to sit down and talk

18 and saying basically, “I don’t want to hurt you,

19 but you’re not leaving me any choice.”

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, if they

22 choose to ignore it, for whatever their

23 motives — June doesn’t ignore things for the

24 same — she doesn’t bury her head in the sand and

25 make believe it’s gonna go away.

209

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: June usually will call

3 you up and say, “Go fuck yourself and drop dead” —

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: — and she’ll get

6 violent and all that, maybe even punch you in the

7 face.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, that’s not so bad.

9 MR. CHANDLER: That’s right, and yet

10 she’s not calling me —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — she’s not doing

13 anything. She’s not talking either. So Michael’s

14 not talking either. The three of them, completely

15 different personalities —

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

17 MR. CHANDLER: — handle situations in

18 three completely different ways, and yet none of

19 the three of them is calling me.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: You can tell me that

22 Jordy’s burying his head in the sand and that’s his

23 reaction [tape irregularity]. What’s the other two

24 excuses? I don’t know. They won’t even tell me

25 what their excuse for not talking to me is. I

210

1 don’t even — I can’t make an excuse for —

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael, I can’t tell

3 you. June, she doesn’t know what’s going on.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Well, of course she

5 doesn’t know what’s going on. She wouldn’t let me

6 tell her.

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: But she doesn’t going

8 on — know what’s going on —

9 MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once.

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once what

12 my thoughts were about it.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

14 MR. CHANDLER: And she said, “Go fuck

15 yourself,” basically.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does this —

17 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

18 inaudible) she said — I do remember ’cause I wrote

19 it on a piece of paper.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: It shocked me so much

22 coming from her mouth that I actually wrote it

23 down, verbatim, in quotes.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: That this human being

211

1 would say something like that about her own kid,

2 and so now that I know that she feels that way

3 about [tape irregularity] no reason why I should

4 assume that she gives a shit about me, so —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know she cares

6 about you.

7 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, that

8 doesn’t matter anymore. June is nonexistent.

9 If — I have no — I have nothing for her anymore.

10 I will never talk to her again, ever. Never.

11 She’s a horrible human being, and it’s all gonna

12 come out, and I don’t even have to say that [tape

13 irregularity]. I’ll let everybody make their own

14 decision.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: June is a horrible,

17 selfish human being. [tape irregularity], and now

18 I find this out about how [tape

19 irregularity] — it’s all over. And if they’re

20 stupid enough not to talk to me tomorrow, well,

21 they’re going to have —

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I think they want

23 to talk to you, and I want to talk to you.

24 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then they

25 should —

212

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But when it comes with a

2 threat, I mean, that’s what’s upsetting to me.

3 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that’s too bad.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why?

5 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

6 inaudible) supposed to do to get someone’s

7 attention? I say, “I am begging you to talk to

8 me.”

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: That doesn’t work. So

11 then you cry hysterically on the phone, “I’m in so

12 much pain because I’m losing” —

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Who did you say

14 that — who was that to?

15 MR. CHANDLER: To June.

16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and how long ago

17 was that?

18 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, three weeks, maybe.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: And then you call up and

21 you say, “I demand to talk to him.”

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: None of that works.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

213

1 inaudible) get the same response. I mean, no

2 emotion from the other side whatsoever.

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.

4 MR. CHANDLER: Nothing.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: Except the coldest

7 response you can possibly imagine, okay?

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: And maybe it’s because

10 she’s insecure. I don’t care anymore —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: I cared at the time. I

13 mean, I was totally shocked that she would respond

14 that way to me. I couldn’t believe it. Okay? So

15 I know that I have tried in every way. I’ve

16 appealed to her in every way I know how. I’ve

17 appealed to her intelligence, I’ve appealed to her

18 emotions, and so I’ve done every — I’ve gotten on

19 the ground and I’ve groveled in front of her. I’ve

20 gone so far as to tell her that her son is in

21 danger.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: None of it made a

24 difference, none of it, and so what else am I

25 supposed to do to get their attention?

214

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I —

2 MR. CHANDLER: If I didn’t care, Dave,

3 I wouldn’t have left that message.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.

5 MR. CHANDLER: I just would have gone

6 and done whatever I wanted to do —

7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

8 MR. CHANDLER: — and they’d have

9 gotten the shock of their life —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: — that all of a sudden

12 would have appeared out of nowhere, and then their

13 whole lives would be forever different and forever

14 bad.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to gain

17 by talking to them tomorrow. All that can happen

18 tomorrow is that I’m gonna look at their faces and

19 I’m gonna feel bad —

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

21 MR. CHANDLER: — and I’m gonna

22 mitigate my position. I’m gonna give in somewhat

23 [tape irregularity] I just went ahead and did what

24 I was gonna do, I don’t ever have to see them

25 again —

215

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: — they’re automatically

3 gonna be destroyed and I’m gonna get what I want.

4 That’s a given [tape irregularity], so —

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean, is that the

6 way to get Jordy?

7 MR. CHANDLER: — talk to them — I’m

8 talking to them for their sake —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — mine. This is my

11 fourth, fifth and last attempt to communicate.

12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

13 MR. CHANDLER: So when I leave a

14 threatening message, I am threatening them —

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: — because nothing else

17 works. Crying didn’t work. Begging didn’t work.

18 Intelligence didn’t work.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: Appealing to the

21 motherly [tape irregularity] nothing worked. So

22 what else is left? You threaten. If that doesn’t

23 work, you’ve basically tried everything there is

24 that you could possibly try.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

216

1 MR. CHANDLER: I didn’t threaten him

2 physically. I didn’t say I was going to kill them.

3 Michael can show up with all his bodyguards with

4 guns and surround me if he wants to.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

6 MR. CHANDLER: I’m not killing anybody

7 tomorrow. It’s not the next step. His death is

8 not the next (inaudible), so I mean I will talk to

9 them tomorrow, but that’s for their — they can’t

10 possibly feel threatened.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: That’s bullshit. I

13 didn’t threaten them physically in any way, and

14 certainly Michael’s got enough [tape irregularity]

15 lawyers (inaudible). He has Burt Fields, who’s a

16 big hotshot, if he wants to, sit right there. I

17 don’t give a shit.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

19 MR. CHANDLER: Whatever, you know, is

20 going to make them protected from my great threat.

21 I’m showing up all by my little self, and they can

22 show up with an entire army if they need to protect

23 themselves from me, but there’s nothing that they

24 can do to convince me that they’re not showing up

25 because they’re afraid for their lives.

217

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: They could show up [tape

3 irregularity] surrounded by bodyguards. He could

4 certainly have them come over to June’s house, so

5 [tape irregularity] threat was obviously the last

6 (inaudible).

7 I’ve never punched anybody. I’ve never

8 shot anybody. I’ve never done anything violent in

9 my life. There’s no reason why they should feel

10 physically threatened. Never ever given them any

11 indication that I [tape irregularity] Jordy, so,

12 you know, they know that that threat’s [tape

13 irregularity] to be fearful of that. They know

14 that that [tape irregularity] and they know that I

15 left it because there’s no other way to get ahold

16 of them.

17 MR. SCHWARTZ: That’s fair.

18 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I think it’s

19 fair.

20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Let me ask you

21 this question. I mean, I definitely want to be

22 there.

23 MR. CHANDLER: That’s fine.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can we do it at night?

25 MR. CHANDLER: No. Has to be —

218

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not? Why does it

2 have to be in the morning?

3 MR. CHANDLER: Because it’s too late at

4 night.

5 MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn’t have to be

6 late —

7 MR. CHANDLER: I have to have the

8 regular business hours. I need as many business

9 hours —

10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

11 MR. CHANDLER: — if it doesn’t go my

12 way to get the wheels going.

13 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what time are you

14 ready to — what time are you through work

15 tomorrow —

16 MR. CHANDLER: The wheels roll at 8:36

17 if they’re not there.

18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but can you do

19 that for me, make it later?

20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,

21 inaudible) do it. I can’t. You don’t have to be

22 there.

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to —

24 MR. CHANDLER: — tape record it. You

25 can hear it all.

219

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to be there.

2 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you have to

3 be there at 8:30. It’s already set.

4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

5 MR. CHANDLER: There are other people

6 involved that are waiting for my phone call that

7 are intentionally going to be in certain

8 positions —

9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

10 MR. CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity].

11 I paid them to do it. They’re doing their job. I

12 gotta just go ahead and follow through on the time

13 zone.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.

15 MR. CHANDLER: I mean the time set out.

16 Everything is going according to a certain plan

17 that isn’t just mine. There’s other people

18 involved —

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: How about 8:37?

20 MR. CHANDLER: Nope. 8:31 is not even

21 going to work.

22 I mean, they’re going to

23 have — they’re going to have to be there or not be

24 there. It’s up to them what happens now. I mean,

25 it’s not going to be [tape irregularity] whether

220

1 they’re there or not.

2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

3 MR. CHANDLER: But if they are there,

4 it’s going to be far better than if they’re

5 not — I mean, they’re going to have a chance to

6 make things a lot better if they’re there.

7 My instructions were to kill and

8 destroy [tape irregularity], I’m telling you. I

9 mean, and by killing and destroying, I’m going to

10 torture them, Dave.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: Because that’s what June

13 has done to me. She has tortured me —

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: — and she’s gonna know

16 that you can’t [tape irregularity].

17 I’ll tell you one thing that Jordy has

18 no idea about, and that’s what love means. He

19 doesn’t even have the remotest idea. He can’t

20 learn it from June. She doesn’t know what it

21 means. She has no conception of what it means.

22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

23 MR. CHANDLER: So maybe, you know, I

24 can get (inaudible) teach him that. I don’t know.

25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah [tape

221

1 irregularity].

2 MR. CHANDLER: Part of it [tape

3 irregularity] other people and communicating, and

4 those are three things that must be in place in

5 order for a loving relationship to exist, because

6 all of those things show that you care about that

7 other person. Not one thing [tape irregularity].

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but it was there.

9 MR. CHANDLER: No, I don’t think it

10 ever was, now that I —

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: — look at her behavior,

13 I’m just saying that June is a brilliant and

14 pathologic personality.

15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

16 MR. CHANDLER: What you see on the

17 surface ain’t even remotely related to what’s

18 really going on underneath.

19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

20 MR. CHANDLER: And I believe that that

21 will come out in lie detector [tape irregularity]

22 psychological evaluations —

23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

24 MR. CHANDLER: — which they’re all

25 gonna have to do.

222

1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

2 MR. CHANDLER: So —

3 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that’s

4 good for Jordy?

5 MR. CHANDLER: I think that in the long

6 run would — of course it’s not the best thing for

7 Jordy.

8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

9 MR. CHANDLER: The best thing for Jordy

10 would be for everybody to sit there and peaceably

11 resolve amongst themselves [tape irregularity], but

12 because they’re not willing to do that, I’m not

13 allowed to have a say in what the best [tape

14 irregularity]. I’m not even allowed to [tape

15 irregularity] Jordy is. I’m not allowed to have a

16 say in anything about Jordy. So when you ask me

17 that question [tape irregularity] I would welcome

18 them to do that, but they don’t care. They don’t

19 care about what I think, so they don’t ask me that

20 question. Do I think — I mean, just to answer

21 your question, I think that [tape irregularity] for

22 Jordy either way in the short [tape irregularity],

23 in the short term.

24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

25 MR. CHANDLER: I think in the long term

223

1 he’s got a [tape irregularity] a chance of being a

2 happy human being if I do what I have to do than if

3 I let things go the way they are.

4 Could a compromise be worked out?

5 Possibly.

6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

7 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Let them convince

8 me as to why [tape irregularity] tell me I’m wrong.

9 Let them show me how Jordy’s benefitting and not

10 being harmed. They got their chance.

11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

12 MR. CHANDLER: If they don’t want it,

13 they haven’t wanted to take it before.

14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

15 MR. CHANDLER: They’ve had four or five

16 times that I’ve called them [tape irregularity]

17 haven’t wanted to get in a conversation with me

18 about it, and I believe they don’t want to get in a

19 conversation with me about it is because they know

20 they can’t defend their position.

21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

22 MR. CHANDLER: [tape irregularity] to

23 cut — I mean, I’m young, I’m really liberal. As

24 far as I’m concerned, anybody could do anything

25 they want. That’s my philosophy. You guys can do

224

1 whatever you want. Just be happy. Don’t get hurt.

2 So . . .

3 (End of Tape 1, Side B.)

9 Comments leave one →
  1. July 26, 2013 7:43 am

    “The reason why Evan never mentioned molestation when he called MJ evil was because he was WARNED BY HIS LAWYER not to mention anything”- Bob

    The reason why Evan did not talk on the phone much was because his lawyer told him not to talk with anyone for fear that Michael’s investigator Pellicano would record them. The phone conversation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz was in July 1993 and it was essential for Evan not to mention money there.

    But his lawyer never told him not to speak about his allegations. And Evan Chandler did speak about them revealing extreme contradictions in his story – on the one hand he said he had “facts”, but on the other hand he said he had “no idea what was going on”.

    Evan and Ray Chandler meticulously collected all those “facts” and this resulted in MJ’s defense subpoena to Ray Chandler in 2005 as a “custodian of documents against MJ”. This is when Ray Chandler grew really frightened. He revealed that they were mostly newspaper clips, some correspondence with lawyers, a couple of notes and innocent pictures most of which were available to MJ’s defense from the media. Yes, Ray Chandler said it himself and gave it as a reason why he should not be subpoenaed by MJ’s defense.

    In other words he admitted that he and Evan had nothing else but newspaper cuts. however MJ’s defense insisted on his testimony in court and then Ray Chandler hid under the Shield law protecting journalists and publishers. He self-published a slanderous book about MJ and this helped him to hide behind that law.

    We have a whole series of posts about Ray Chandler’s subpoena and the fright of his life he had over it.

    Not a single Chandler wanted to testify against Jackson ever because their story would have collapsed under cross-examination.

    Like

  2. July 25, 2013 7:09 pm

    bob permalink

    “The reason why Evan never mentioned molestation when he called MJ evil was because he was WARNED BY HIS LAWYER not to mention anything”

    Bob, which lawyer are you referring to? Evan had 3. It could not be the first, because she wanted to go immediately to the police, however Evan decided to replace her for that piece of advice. I suspect she is the only who thought it was possible. None others where concerned with an alleged molestation. The police and DA were only a tool to be used later in the hope to bolster the case and gain access to information about MJ’s body the boy did not have.

    However, Evan and Jordan had an two opportunities in 1994 to stand before a jury and denounce Michael without losing any settlement money. They had a third in 2005 and I suspect Sneddon spent years trying to get them to help him set something up.

    So if greed was the primary factor for not doing the right thing why not just take the money and then do the right thing? Of course the problem was, it was not right and they would not have been able to prove it since two grand juries had already decided there was nothing to prove.

    Like

  3. bob permalink
    July 25, 2013 8:14 am

    The reason why Evan never mentioned molestation when he called MJ evil was because he was WARNED BY HIS LAWYER not to mention anything

    Like

  4. Rodrigo permalink
    August 11, 2012 9:21 pm

    I agree with all that, SRJ.

    And yes if it blew up, Evan could have pleaded insanity, since he was Bipolar.

    Like

  5. August 11, 2012 11:01 am

    Wow…I think Evan’s rage at the imaginary “break-up” in his family combined with whatever personality problem/jealous mindset he’d accumulated over the years sent his imagination haywire for good. (After all, he co-wrote ‘Robin Hood…Tights’)…rage eventually came to hallucinating about a perfectly platonic relationship turning perverse (WHAT led him to reach this conclusion, what movie, image, picture, moment in time did he look at to come up with CHILD MOLESTATION, I will never know), which led to a rather unexpected light bulb coming on for means of revenge, and monetary gain (‘fabricating’ evidence at this point would have been too easy for this madman-with-an-agenda). Could he have claimed he was criminally insane at one point, had MJ taken the stand at criminal court? I wouldn’t doubt it, considering the demise of a life he led afterward. …but what a perfect, disgusting premise to a novel! And who better to write it than our dear old NAMBLA representative! -_-

    This is going to sound terribly morbid, and thank God it NEVER happened: but if Evan was SO enraged and terrified with what MJ was “doing” with Jordan, wouldn’t he have beaten the s**t out of MJ the second he saw him again? (I reference Mr. Culkin’s parenting techniques here). Wouldn’t Jordan, a terrified and disgusted victim, have told a police officer at one of the MANY chances he had to do so? Considering the fact that Evan tried to kill Jordan in 2005, it wouldn’t have been such a drastic thing to resort to violence, even for our loon.

    There are SO many things wrong with this kind of mentality. What’s worse, it’s like his madness infected everyone he talked to, from lawyers to even LAW ENFORCEMENT. The Evan Effect. *shutters in disgust*

    Like

  6. Rodrigo permalink
    August 11, 2012 6:10 am

    Helena, I have a question.

    What do you think Evan meant when he said he had proof that Michael was “an evil guy”? Could he have been referring to the letter about the possibility of Michael’s relationship being sexual from the psychologist he read out in Pellicano’s office?

    Personally, I think that letter was used just to get Michael into submission. I bet Evan never thought Michael would put up a fight after reading something as damaging to his career as that letter described. THEN Evan started rehearsing Jordan when he knew Michael wasn’t going to rollover, and he had Rothman telling him it could still work. Having Gutierrez telling them things that he learned from his buddies at NAMBLA to make everything seem genuine and convincing.

    Like

  7. Rodrigo permalink
    March 16, 2012 7:08 pm

    Yet the haters believe Evan sounded like a concerned parent…Please!

    He was only concerned about catching Michael, telling him the story that he and his lawyer conceived, that Michael molested Jordie, and settling it with money.

    Any hater that doesn’t see that is in complete denial, which most of them are.

    Like

  8. March 16, 2012 5:42 pm

    Evan shows in this conversation how much unstable, disturbed, paranoid, jealous and scoundrel he was.
    So… he believed Michael had molested Jordan, but all he wanted was to sit down and talk about it, all he was begging was attention? Ok.

    No wonder he has blown his brains out. This man was completely irrational. And the misfortune was he have find a smart person as Rothman to guide him. And Larry Feldman to keep the plane, of course.

    Like

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