Michael Jackson’s Friend Brett Barnes Talks To Charles Thomson. TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERVIEW part 1

On another sad anniversary of Michael Jackson’s death probably the best tribute to him would be the interview of Michael’s lifelong friend Brett Barnes with journalist Charles Thomson.

The interview took place already a year ago, in June 2022. It is very long, more than two hours in duration, and it covers lots of details and questions anyone would want Brett Barnes to talk about. And considering that his accent strikes me as very Australian and sometimes nearly incomprehensible, this is how long it has taken me, on and off, to transcribe it.

This post will offer you the first part of the transcript. Occasionally it may require some comment but over here there will be a minimum of interruption on my part – the comments, analysis and even some new findings will come in a separate post. Today we need to listen to first-hand information from a sincere, honest and honorable man who knew Michael Jackson for more than 19 years, associated with him almost until his dying day, and still remains his true friend well after it.

The MJCast 145: Vindication Day Special with Brett Barnes

June 20, 2022 

Part 1

NO QUESTION AND TOPICS ARE OFF LIMITS

Charles Thomson: So Brett Barns, this is the first time you’ve given an interview since 1993. Is that right?

Brett Barnes: That’s correct.

CT:  And is that 1993 interview the only interview you’ve ever given?

BB: Yeah, that would be correct.

CT:  So why now?

BB: That’s a very good question. And to tell you the truth, I don’t really have an answer. It’s something that I’ve wanted to do for a little while having the right outlet has definitely been an important part of that. And, um, just the way that the media has their spin on things it’s really important to have my version of the story, or my story told on a proper forum for that and I believe that this is the one.

CT:  There’s a lot of accusations made on Twitter that you are not Brett Barns (Brett laughs) and that you’re some sort of imposter (laughs again). I can confirm that we did have a video call together to talk about recording this interview. And you definitely are you.

BB: Thank you. (laughs)

CT: And during that conversation, I said to you, is there anything that you don’t want to talk about? And you said, no, no, you can ask me anything you like. Correct?

BB: That’s true.

CT: Okay. Great. Buckle up.

(music)

The following is a presentation from the MJ cast, the Internet’s premier podcast on all things Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson’s voice:

“I’m a black American. I am proud of who I am together. We can make a change in the world.” “I like to take sounds and put ’em on the microscope.” “There’s a driving base. You become the base. Let the music write itself. I don’t sing it if I don’t mean it. “

Welcome to the MJ cast – your source of news, discussion and interviews on the King of Pop.

HBO TOLD HIM TO GET LOST

CT: Hello and welcome to the MJ cast. I’m Charles Thomson and you’re joining me today for our 2022 Vindication Day episode marking 17 years since Michael Jackson was acquitted after his trial in 2005.

My guest today is Brett Barnes, a long time friend of Michael Jackson, who was thrust into the spotlight in 2019 when a number of assertions were made about him in the TV show Leaving Neverland. He’s chosen the MJ cast as the outlet for his first interview since 1993.

So Brett, I don’t think there’s much question that one of the factors in your decision to speak to us now is the impact that Leaving Neverland had three years ago when it was aired, produced by Channel 4 and HBO, and there were some very strong insinuations in that TV show about you and about your relationship with Michael.  So I just want to check, we just want to get on record with you really. Did anybody involved in that production contact you to offer you the opportunity to reply to any of the insinuations in that show…

BB:  No. Not at all.

CT:  …before it aired?

BB:  Not at all.

CT:  Did anybody contact you to forewarn you that it was going to be airing anywhere?

BB:  Yeah, the only people that did were the fans from Twitter.

CT:  So nobody from Leaving Neverland ever contacted you before it came out?

BB:  No.

CN:  What do you think of that?

BB:  It’s very unfair. It’s very unfair. I don’t understand why, because I guess the argument for them is that it’s not really involving me, but it is involving me because it’s naming me. It’s showing my image. Not only that. My name was used in promotion for the movie. And so without my opinion being involved in it it’s very unfair. Because it’s a one-sided piece with no rebuttal.

CT: And after it aired or after it premiered, I should say, at the Sundance film festival, there was a lawyer called Allen Grodsky who wrote a letter to HBO on your behalf. I’m just going to read an excerpt of that letter. So he said,

 “As a result of the early screenings of the film and the false and exceedingly hurtful impression it leaves, Mr. Barnes has already suffered tremendous stress and emotional pain. Mr. Barnes and his family have received unwanted inquiries and visits from the press and strangers wanting to speak to him about Mr. Jackson. This pain and stress will be dwarfed by the torment he will have to endure if the film is broadcast worldwide.”

So can you tell us a bit about the unwanted inquiries that you received in the visits from the press and from strangers? What happened after Leaving Neverland aired at Sundance?

ANY WORDS THAT I WOULD SAY WOULD BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT

BB:  I had numerous contacts from the Australian press really. The international press was handled, the inquiries were all sent to my lawyer, and so he would funnel them to me to let me know if there are any things happening, so I had a bit of a barrier from the international press. But the Australian press definitely came to my house to try organize an interview. It was Channel 7, Channel 9 here. Both of them tried to contact me on social media as well.

I’m offering the same sort of thing but, my, I have a very, very big distrust of media because of the way that they treat, they will take your words and twist them and, and have their viewpoint and their angle of the story. And so any, any words that I would say would be taken out of context, I’m just very fearful of that.

It’s been demonstrated in the way that they approached me for those couple of specials that they were airing for both of those channels over here. And it was pitched to me to try and get me to do the interview as being a positive piece. But they used, um, in both of those shows… they said that some of the Jackson family members were involved to try and sell it to me to do the interview. Of course I turned it down.

But, um, the specials that they had were totally the opposite of that, so it’s been demonstrated to me how untrustworthy the media is, so I’d really try not to be a part of it.

CT:  So these would be the specials, I assume, you’re talking about the ones I remember – there was an Australian special after Leaving Neverland debuted with, um, Adrian McManus (here is a post about her).

BB:  Yeah, that’s one, that’s one of them.

CT: These are the specials that you’re talking about?

BB: That’s correct.

CT: Yes. So they approached you and they told you that that was going to be a pro-Michael Jackson special to try to get you to participate in it?

BB: Yeah, of course. Of course. I’m sorry to jump. But when back … when the trial was happening and I was called to be a witness, so this is the type of thing, this is type of history that I’ve personally had.

So a newspaper from over here came to my door. They knocked on the door, I didn’t know who it was, opened the door, and there was a reporter there and a cameraman and a camera in my face.

Now I’m just a regular human being and so to have that happen is very, very … in my past being around the press on that side of things has always been expected. But not for someone away from that life, and the life I am talking about is with Michael, so back here when I’m home, it’s a completely private life. And so to open the front door to have a camera in your face is very confronting.

Anyway, so they tried, I’d close the door in their face and they got my home phone number. I was living with my parents at the time. They got my home phone number and were calling me relentlessly. They stayed out, they left the cameraman outside of my house for over an hour. It’s very encroaching on my private life and I don’t like that. And then they ended up spinning a story and putting a little article in a newspaper saying that I spoke to them which I never did. It was just them harassing me over the phone.

There was a time, even earlier, when my dad, my dad (laughs) was just in the yard taking out the bins or something, because it was midnight and a tabloid magazine had a photographer in my neighbor’s yard leaning over the fence. He took a photo of my dad when he was taking the bins out, and then they spun a story saying that they had an exclusive interview with him. The way they have conducted themselves has not made me very trustworthy of the press.

CN: These approaches that you received on the doorstep after Leaving Neverland aired, how would you characterize them? Would you say that they were respectful?

BB: No. No.

CT: Okay. So talk me through that.

BB: They were very, very pushy. They were relentless. It’s like they are hungry for blood. The person that came after Sundance, that came to the door … because we have an Intercom, my wife answered and she said there was a gentleman, he asked if Brett Barns lived there, so she said “No, sorry, I haven’t heard of that person”. So he’s like, “Are you sure? “ “Yeah. I’ve been living here for a couple of years, there’s no one by that name living here”. And so he’s walked away and then he’s come back. He says, “Well, Brett Barnes is listed on the electoral roll as living here”.

So they were doing checks. You can’t check on the electoral roll, you have to go into wherever the roll is held to have a look at who’s there. So you can’t just be at home and be checking up on it. So it’s the lengths that they go to as well, to try and get a story, and to know then that the story that they’re going to get, isn’t going to be putting me in a positive light, is untrustworthy to say the least.

CT: Yeah. And you know, you just mentioned your wife who is involved. You have your own family, so how does it affect them when that happens?

BB: Because they don’t have….. Well, I’ve got a very young, young family, so my oldest child is almost going to be five, so they don’t understand. They haven’t had to go through too much because my youngest daughter was younger at the time, so she had no idea what was going on. But my wife, on the other hand, she is just from a normal family as well. It’s a regular family, they don’t know anyone famous (laughs), so she is not used to it at all, and it’s very confronting for her as well because it is such an invasion of privacy.

CT: To this day has anybody involved in Leaving Neverland contacted you to offer you any kind of right of reply?

BB: No. No.

CT: If they had, would you have spoken to them?

BB: That’s a good question. (pause) I’m very conflicted on that. And then that’s the thing as well is that if I would want to, but is it the right platform for me to do it? It would give credits to the movie. Because for whatever viewpoint up, they have their perspective on the situation, let’s say. So, no matter what I would say, they’ve had the history of to not really care about me as an individual or what I have to say, and it’s not going to go along with their story, which is obviously their own cash cow. It wouldn’t benefit me or anything, I don’t think to be part of whatever they have to produce.

NO ONE’S EVER REALLY ASKED ME TO TELL MY STORY

CT: I’m just going to read you another line from the letter that your lawyer sent to HBO. It says,

 “Mr. Barnes has conspicuously avoided the public eye and has not mentioned his friendship with Mr. Jackson to those close to him. His employer, his co-workers and many close friends are totally unaware”.

Why have you kept the fact that you had this friendship with Michael Jackson, even from some of your close friends?

BB: Well, there’s my close friends, I’ve got a very, very close circle of friends who I’ve been friends with for a very long time. There is like a circle of knowledge, so there’s people within the circle that obviously know, so people that have been around for a long time. 

But there are people who have come into my life later on. If they have any idea, then they haven’t said anything to me, but for the most part, most people are unaware. It’s not something that I flaunted. Because of the way (pause) … high school was a little bit rough for me, because that’s when the first allegations came out.

Not only that, with people knowing that you know someone famous, especially on that level, people treat you differently, let’s say. You can’t really trust a lot of people that are around you because there is a lot of money to be made from knowing him and anything surrounded by him. Any story sells, which’s been proven. Any salacious story sells, should I say.

CT: And have you ever been offered money by the media to talk about Michael?

BB: The story that I mentioned about the photographer and the newspaper coming to my house – they offered me money for it, but there’s not really been any payment. So the truth, no one’s ever really asked me to tell my story, and I guess it’s because it’s not going to sell any stories for them. It’s not the viewpoint that they’re going for.

CT: And when people were waving money at you, was there any suggestion that they wanted you to say anything in particular in order to earn that money? You know, if you’ve got something negative to say we’ve got some money for you, or was it not that overt?

BB: No, it wasn’t that overt.

THE RIDICULE

CT: Okay. So I think from what you’ve just said, essentially, you’re saying that you’ve been wary of mentioning your connection to Michael for two reasons. The first of which is that because of the allegations that were made it became sort of embarrassing. And the second is that you are concerned that people could try to profit from their association with you.

BB: Yeah, fake friends. But I need to clarify that first point.

CT: Sure.

BB: It’s not the embarrassment of those allegations. It’s the ridicule that I received because of those allegations. I’ve never been embarrassed to be friends with him and I never would be. It’s the ridicule I received because of those allegations. If that makes more sense.

CT: And are you talking about ridicule, you know, in your personal life or are you talking about ridicule in the media?

BB: No, in my personal life.

CT: So what kind of ridicule?

BB:  Just you know [how] kids could be mean? There was a lot of ridicule about that for mom, in the school yard.

The Barnes family

CT: Have you ever experienced people around you trying to profit from their association with you and your association with Michael?

BB: Um, no. No, we haven’t. Not that I’m aware of, but I think it’s because we have tended to keep a close circle. So like a lot of people in my life don’t know, it’s because we are not the type of people to flaunt anything. And so we keep those around us that we trust a lot more.

ARE YOU THE REAL BRETT?

CT: Is that part of the reason that your Twitter account is kind of quasi-anonymous (Brett laughs) in the sense that you never post any pictures of yourself or anything like that? Because you’re trying to keep a separation between Twitter Brett Barns and real world Brett Barns?

BB: Well, it actually started after he passed because I’ve got a profile on Facebook. So after he passed a lot of people, a lot of fans requested friendship on Facebook, so I didn’t want to, um, just ignore it, but I didn’t want to add them on my personal Facebook. So I created a Facebook with that same original picture. and so that’s when I started adding all the fans and then all the fans started adding on that. And then I branched out into Twitter and then Instagram which I don’t really use, so I’d say it’s an evolution of the Facebook page for the fans to separate my personal life from that.

CT: I mean, you are frequently challenged by people on Twitter to post a photograph or something to prove that you are the real Brett Barnes (Brett laughs) and you always refuse to do that. So why do you always refuse to do that?

BB: It’s a privacy thing. I still want to maintain my privacy.

CT: So I think it’s fair to say you’ve used your Twitter account over the years to try to set the record straight a bit. when things are reported that involve you, or, you know, when Leaving Neverland came out, that kind of thing, but you’ve never given an indepth interview of the kind that we’re doing today.

One of Brett’s tweets in response to the “Leaving Neverland” fiction story

WE WENT DOWN TO THE AIRPORT

CT:  So why don’t we just rewind to the very beginning of your story with Michael? So, as I understand it, Michael was in Australia on the Bad tour and you as a fan and your mum and your sister went down to the airport. You were too young to go to concert. Is that right?

BB: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a funny story about that. So it was actually Tullamarine [a suburb of Melbourne]. That’s the way the universe works sometimes (laughs). So I was at the airport. Do you want me telling the story?

CT: Yes, go ahead. Tell us the story.

BB: Because it’ll add on to it as well for what I am.  What I told you, I was five years old. I’ve got an older sister of course, and my mom, and my whole family really, we’re all fans of him. And he was coming down for the Bad tour. So it was either my mom or my auntie, someone had suggested that we all go to the airport just to catch a glimpse of him off the plane, as fans around the world do, which I’ve seen multiple times.

So it’s funny. Yeah, so we went to see him. And mom came up with the idea of writing a letter, just at some chance that it gets to him, which I’ve seen happen in later years as well. So my sister wrote both of our letters actually, because I was a bit shy to write. So I just said, “Hey, I’m Brett, here’s my phone number. Um, I’m a really big fan of yours. Give us a call.” That sort of thing.

We went to the airport and so my mom, my sister, myself, my auntie, and my two cousins, we went to the airport to have a glance, and his dancers were up where all the fans were, the dancers for the show. So we handed it to… it was Eddie that we handed the letter to.

While we were there, and this is the actual part, while we were there, there were show bags, Pepsi show bags, because of course it was a Pepsi tour. So Pepsi show bags. And so in the show bags, it was like cans of Pepsi and I think there might have been like tour T-shirts and stuff, but in random ones there were show tickets. 

So my sister (laughs) went, grabbed a couple of show bags for her and one for me. She brings them back, she gives me one of the bags. Inside my bag there was a couple of the show tickets, but of course me being five years old, I was too young to go. So my mom and auntie, I think, ended up going.

CT: Oh, that must have been gutting!

BB: (laughs) Yeah, it was. But it was just funny how me of all people ended up getting show tickets as well. Yeah, so then we saw him, we went on and we were like far away where all the fans were, and we saw him go from the plank to a van. And then, that was a couple of weeks later, a week or so later, we get a phone call at home and my sister answers the phone and I’m at the front plane, so I wasn’t actually there when the phone rang. So this whole story being told to me, but apparently my sister answers the phone. Someone says, “Hi, can I speak to Brett please?”

So she puts the phone down because I was outside playing, so I think my mum was there, she’s like, “Who is on the phone?” My sister’s like, “Someone looking for Brett, sounds like it’s Michael Jackson” (laughs). So mom was shocked, she picked up the phone, and indeed it was. And so I went inside to talk to [him], but I was a bit shy so I didn’t really say much on that first phone call. That’s how the friendship started.

CT: And you were five, did you say?

BB: Yeah. It was like ’87, end of ’87, start of ‘88.

• Note: The Bad tour started on September 12, 1987. The concert in Melbourne was on November 13, 1987. On that tour Australia was followed by North America, Europe, North America again and Asia. The tour ended a year and a half later, on January 27, 1989 after MJ touring North America for the third time.

THE COUSINS ARE GIRLS BY THE WAY

CT: What do you remember about that first phone call?

BB:  Yeah, I don’t actually remember much, unfortunately, because I was really, really, really shy, like I really didn’t want to. I didn’t like being put on the spot even at a very early age.  So I didn’t really want to speak, so I just remember like my mom was holding me, so I remember I kept turning my head every time the phone was trying to be put to my ear.

CT: What happened then? So you have that first phone call.

BB: Yeah.

CT: And then how did things develop from there?

BB: He just kept calling and we kept talking. Sometimes it was weekly, he just kept calling and keeping in touch, speaking to us all.

CT: Speaking to the whole family?

BB:  Mm-hmm, even my cousins too. He would call my cousins.

CT: Oh, really? (laughs)

BB:  Yeah. I forgot to mention my cousins were there on that day too when he first called. They are girls by the way. So they gave him their numbers. So he called them as well.

CT: Did you ever find it strange? You know, he’s the biggest, most famous celebrity in the history of the world. And in his spare time he rings you and your family. Did it ever seem weird to you?

BB: (laughs) Because I was so young, I don’t know if it ever really transferred that the person that I was seeing on TV was the same person that I was speaking to on the phone. So to me he was just a regular person because it wasn’t part of the concerts and the video clips and stuff. So from the very start he has been a regular person for me. And it’s probably why I got (laughs) such a skewed perspective on life.

CT: What do you mean by a skewed perspective on life?

BB: Because of being exposed to that side of things, like seeing, going around the world, seeing the energy of the fans, when the concerts are going on, just seeing the mayhem of people everywhere, the adoration, just that side of life – and then coming back here to just be a regular person, going to school and just living a normal life.

CT: So you mean you have like a unique outlook.

BB: Very unique outlook.

CT: Yeah. Most people have not experienced what you’ve experienced.

BB: It’s wild. It’s wild.

CT: So you said he would talk to you and your sister and he would talk to your cousins who were girls. Did he talk to your parents also?

BB: Yeah. Yeah, of course.

CT: And so essentially it was a friendship with the whole family.

BB: Yeah, the whole family.

• Note: Everyone who wonders what Michael Jackson talked with little children about, should listen to Michael’s conversation with little Megan, daughter of Glenda Stein, whose husband recorded Michael Jackson’s calls to their family for a period of two or three years (apparently for selling them, which they eventually did).
  Michael Jackson called the little girl from Italy on July 6^th, 1992 during the Dangerous tour and patiently listened to her account of the movie she was impressed with, the fireworks she saw at Disneyland, Michael’s T-shirts, her dream of becoming an actress, Michael’s poems, the film Moonwalker and how they made a ponytail on the main villain’s head stick up in the air, the nightmare she once had, the scary Chucky doll from a movie and Michael reassuring her again and again that it’s just pretend and make-believe. The tape lasts for 13 minutes and leaves the listeners in awe of Michael’s patience and kindness to children. The typical comments are: “The way he interacts and listens to this child is endearing. Such patience and kindness”, “I can’t believe he had thirteen minutes of patience to hear that little girl talk, and he’s a man making millions of money per minute. Damn! I won’t have five minutes of that patience” and “After listening to this there’s no way the allegations about him are true no f***ng way”. Try the tape here and see for yourself.
• 

NEVERLAND AND NICKNAMES

CT: So was the first time you met him in person, would that be when you were invited to Neverland for the first time?

BB: Correct.

CT: So I think from court transcripts, that was in December, 1991. Does that sound right?

BB: Yeah.

CT: Okay. So tell us about that first. Well, tell us about the first time you actually clap eyes on him and meet him in person. How vividly do you remember that?

BB: Yeah. To me it sort of plays out more like a movie, like I’m watching the situation. It was, yeah, it was really, really, really cool. It was really cool.

Because we’ve just been speaking for a long time over the phone and it was… he was waiting to finish the Dangerous album before we would fly out. Going to Neverland for the first time was so amazing. And, it’s funny because every single time that you go there, that magic is just …. it would still be there. That same magic of being there for the first time.

But yeah, because music is playing… when you first go through the gates music is everywhere. Just classical music, Disney soundtrack just playing everywhere, so it’s like a real experience. And then he was in his bedroom which is the whole house, whole apartment within itself. And so the whole family went in, because we actually …

No, first off, we were in the library, we had to go to the library first. Library was really cool. Books everywhere, a massive chess table, and then his manager came back, nice manager’s secretary assistant, she was the one that picked us up from the airport and took us to Neverland. And she was like, “Mr. Jackson is ready to see you now”, so we all go in there and I just ran up and hugged him. It was really cool. 

CT: Just tell me more about that moment. So you meet him for the first time, is he bigger than you expect him to be? What’s… what’s that like meeting Michael Jackson?

BB: Yeah, I am still a little kid, so he is… he’s obviously larger than life, but still like real frails, real funny.

CT: Frail.

BB: Yeah, well, not frail, but just because he was a lot skinnier than a lot of people. Frail is, sorry, frail is a really wrong word to use. Because he’s still powerful of course, because of the dancing, like his body was just pure muscle. But there wasn’t a lot of him.

But for me, as I was saying, from a young age he’s always been a regular person to me, so it wasn’t so much as meeting Michael Jackson for the first time, it was the first time meeting Applehead, if that makes sense.

CT: Applehead. So he told you that that was his nickname.

BB: It was everybody’s nickname. I was Applehead. No, actually he called me Doo-Doo more so. But he was always, he was always Up for me. For most people who recall, like some people call him Doo-Doo, for the most part I called him Up.

CT: Was there ever any explanation given as to the origins of these names? Because they are a bit… they’re not flattering, you know. Doo-Doo (both laugh), so where does that come from?

BB: It was just… I’ve never actually got the explanation for it, but it’s just something that, something that we rolled with, I guess, it’s one of those things where it’s like a cheeky way of showing love and appreciation. Like Australians are well known for it. So it makes total sense to me without having to understand it.  

Like we call each other over here, we call each other the C-word. We frequently use the C-word and it’s a term of endearment for a lot of people. So I understand that aspect of it. But Applehead, I know the origin of, well, the way that he told me was that it was him and Mac watching Three Stooges and I think it was Moe called Curly Lord said to both of them – you Appleheads and that sort of stuck from there.

CT: And just to clarify, Mac, presumably is McCauley Culkin.

BB: Yeah.

“Michael on the set of Captain EO showing one of his favorites: the Three Stooges. Contrary to what some pathetic media personalities who made a sorta-kinda career trashing MJ, “Applehead” is not a code name for any crime. Simply one of the Three Stooges’ signature catchphrases.” 
 https://twitter.com/MikeSalazar777/status/1234165503666593792
I agree with the comment: “The only thing dafter than the Three Stooges are Wade Robson, James Safechuck and Dan Reed.”

THE TRAIN STATION CAME LATER

CT: Okay. So Neverland was a work in progress at that time. What do you remember being there and not being there in December 91?

BB: Um, some of the amusement rides, um, some of the animals weren’t there, it’s only from later, things that I never really thought about, like what was there and what wasn’t. The flower clock and the train station – actually yeah, they came later. Because the big train wasn’t there. It was only the little train.

CT: Were there animals there, did you say, was there a zoo?

BB: Yeah. There were some animals, but some animals weren’t there. Like there was a petting zoo that came later, the tigers came later. He had only one elephant then. Gypsy.

CT: And so what were those first days at Neverland? Like, did you get to spend a lot of time with Michael or were you more left to your own devices on the property?

BB: No, he was waiting, as I said, he was waiting to finish Dangerous, so he could have a lot of free time, so he was around for most of it.

CT: And so what kind of stuff were you getting up to?

BB: It was the arcade. The game house was the best. So it was just a house filled with arcade games. It was literally a two story building filled with arcade games. Jukebox. There was fridges filled with sodas. It was candy everywhere. The movies, [we] went to the theater to watch movies. Of course the rides. It was wild.

 We were staying in the guest houses. My sister and I were sleeping in one of them together, in separate beds. So we went to bed the first time and woke up the very next morning, and he comes into the room and he’s got a chimpanzee. So this was the very first morning after we got there. We were greeted in the room with a chimpanzee. Wow.

CT: (laughs) Was it Bubbles? Was it one of the other chimps?

BB: It was Max. Bubbles wasn’t there.

CT: In terms of your first visit there, I think, didn’t you go to other places? You went to Disneyland, you went to LA, you went to Vegas. Was that all during that first trip as well?

BB: Because I was so young my memories didn’t distinguish what places we went. We definitely went to those places, but I don’t know if it was in that trip. From my memory we were going across pretty often, from my grade 5 – 6, my years in school, grade 5, grade 6. I was actually there for like half of them, because we were going, like we went over on tour, and we were going back and forth to the States.

THE PERSON I WAS SEEING ON TV WASN’T THE SAME PERSON I WAS SPEAKING TO

CT: And being inside Michael Jackson’s private world, what impact does that have on you as a fan? Does Michael Jackson the pop star start to lose the mystique? Does he start to become more of a human and less of a pop star? What, how does that relationship change?

BB: Of course. Like I said, from the very start I was too young to differentiate between the person I was speaking to and I mean, not young to differentiate, it was differentiated. The person I was seeing on TV wasn’t the same person I was speaking to. There were sort of two separate beings. So being around him, there’s a moment where the pop star creeps in, but for the most part he was just outward.

CT:  And how does that happen when you say there’s moments where the pop star creeps in? What would be an example?

BB: Obviously the concert, so as soon as he stepped out on stage…. but like there’d be times where we would go in, like, we’d go to Toys R Us, but it will be shut after hours, but they would open the store for us. Like the very first time we’re at the ranch we went to Toys R Us and he’s like, “Get whatever you want”, so we filled up a couple of carts… sorry, I’m saying that real so blasé like it doesn’t matter, but it was amazing times. But for me they’re just sort of story, so please forgive me.

So we filled up a couple of carts and get to the register (laughs), I turned to my mum, I was like, “Is he going to be able to afford all these toys?” He’s like, yeah, don’t worry about it, don’t worry about it, he’s got it.

So there’s one time we’re in Vegas and he’s like, “Let’s go get some candy”, so Karlee and I, my sister and I, we went with him to get some candy without real security or anything. We were just going there when… we did it a few times at different places but it’s all like a virus. One person will see and then all of a sudden everyone sees, and you start off with, like, you think you’re by yourself, then you turn around, and there’s a hundred people around, so anyway there was a [matter of a cry?].

We went to the shop and he’s like “You choose all your candies that you want and fill up a bag”. So we filled up. I spent time choosing my favorite, all the favorite candies that were there, but then we got too many people, so we had to leave. So we’re running back to where we were staying, like there was a whole heap of people chasing us too. You know, as I’m running back shaking, and then the bottom of the bag falls out and all my candy just spread out across, across the car park (laughs).

I was gutted, I was gutted, so I saved what I could, but we had to keep running. When I got back what I could save, I was very disappointed.  So things like that you’d see that’s what I mean by the star, the pop star that will creep in. You are like, oh yeah, this isn’t a regular person.

CT:  And when that would happen, did you ever have moments where you just thought to yourself, how did I end up here?

BB: Oh, all the time. All the time.

CT: How do you deal with that? I mean, you were a young kid, it’s a huge change in your life, that sudden scrutiny and the restrictions that that imposes on your ability to just do what you want to do.

BB: Well, I wasn’t really, I guess I wasn’t really consciously thinking about it. Because to me it was just always more live in the moment, like whether I was over there experiencing all that stuff or being over here, living a regular life, it was just what was happening there and now.

CT: Were your family with you on these excursions?

BB: Yeah. For the most part. Yeah, they were there.

CT: How did they find it? I mean, particularly your parents, you know, were they ever worried about your safety or anything like that?

BB: No, their biggest concern… this is really weird, you can see that’s the thing about this, when I talk about this, like, to my wife, because she obviously wasn’t a part of all of this, so to her they are just stories when I’m telling them, even though it happened to me, when I tell them they just seem so wild… their biggest concern about it all was that, like, I was missing too much school. That was their main concern.

CT: So when you went in December 91, how long do you think you were there that first time?

BB: Uh, maybe a month.

CT: Yes, so that is quite a while. Were you there for Christmas then?

BB: Yeah, but I really can’t remember. I would assume so.

CT: And then you were going back fairly regularly after that. Did you have a tutor or anything like that or were you just missing school?

CT: One of the tours we had a tutor, a family friend. He’s a teacher over here. So he came across on the tour with us.

CT:  I mean, did it catastrophically affect your schooling or did you pretty much survive it?

BB: Yeah, survived it (laughs). It was my later schooling years when my grades started failing (laughs).

CT: How come? What happened in the later years?

BB: Yeah. I just really didn’t… I got too bored at school. I didn’t really enjoy school, so I did the very bare minimum.

CT: Yeah. I mean, it’s not quite the Dangerous tour, is it?

BB: No, not exactly. And I guess that’s what happened when I, when I was saying that my, my perspective on life is a bit different, is a bit unique. My values that I place on things aren’t uncertain things I should say. A little bit different to what others do.

IT’S BEEN SUCH AN INSIGNIFICANT PART OF IT!

CT: It would be remiss of me not ask you about the sleeping arrangements, given the intense scrutiny which has been focused on that issue. I mean, when you testified in 2005, you said that it was during that first trip to Neverland that you first stayed in Michael’s room. So how did that end up happening?

BB: Well, it’s not, it’s not something that I actually, that I actually remember, like, I don’t remember specifics about it. It’s just something that always was. The thing is that he is, oh sorry, he was such a magnet for all people – like everyone just wanted to be around him all the time because that’s just the type of person he was. So it just would’ve been that fact of just never wanting to leave his side because of the power of him. Just everybody wanted to be around him 24/7. So it just would have evolved from that.

Because the sleeping, the thing with the sleeping arrangements to me is that it’s never been something to concern myself with. I’ve never seen the problem with the sleeping arrangements because the focus has never been on the fact that it was just sleeping arrangements. It was just to sleep. There was nothing, there was nothing more than that. And so why so much focus on?  It’s just sleeping arrangements. It’s just for sleep! I don’t see why, if you’re going with the understanding that nothing ever happened, why can’t it be understood that it was just nothing but sleep.

It was just a sleep.

CT: Well, I mean, clearly the issue for a lot of people is that there were allegations that were made. So people feel that there is cause to question whether it was just sleeping arrangements, which is why, you know, you’ve ended up in a courtroom and so on. I think the other thing is that a lot of people find really difficult to understand, and I’d be interested to understand your perspective of it as a parent now yourself, whether or why parents were not concerned by it, if you see what I mean. I mean, you are now a parent. Would you find it concerning? If one of your kids you discovered had been sleeping in a room with another adult?

BB:  (sighs) When it’s put like that, that does sound concerning, but that’s oversimplifying things.

It’s not a fact of later finding out about it, turning around and saying, oh, this happened. It’s not that at all. It’s hurtful for people to think that my parents wouldn’t have seen something if something was off, even the slightest thing, if something was off, that they would let it happen, for anybody, regardless of who it is, that they would stand aside and let something happen to their child.

That to me is very hurtful to think that they would do that. So me being a parent, being in a situation where something happens, you had better believe that I’m going to be a hundred percent on point. Having a look at the situation and making decisions off that, there’s no way that I would put my child in harm’s way or let anything happen to them.

So for me, if I was in their situation and the exact same thing would have played out, I would have done exactly the same thing.

CT: And too on that front, did they ever ask you any questions about it? I mean, particularly after the Chandler allegations…

BB: Of course.

CT:  …were made public. Did they ever sit you down and ask you questions about it?

BB: Of course. Of course they did because they are parents, they’re not going to let anything happen to me.

CT: Did other people sometimes stay in the room with you?

BB: Of course. It wasn’t, it wasn’t …. the door is closed and no one can come in.

CT: So who else would be there on occasion?

BB: Um, his cousins were around, friends were around. Uh, my sister was there.

That’s another thing with me is that it’s never been the focus of my memories because it’s been such an insignificant part of it. Like who cares about sleeping? Do you remember all the times that you were sleeping? Do you remember your sleepy situations all those times? No, because it’s not the focus of what you … what you would think of, what memories you would want to keep.

CT: Yeah, and it must be, it sounds to me like it’s frustrating to you that this has become essentially the focus, that essentially you had a long, a decades-long friendship with Michael Jackson, but because of allegations that were made, essentially they have been defined by something that to you was an irrelevance.

BB: So insignificant! So insignificant! And that’s what it has boiled down to. The friendship was so much, so much more than that, than sleeping arrangements.

CT: Yeah, of course. You understand, the reason I want to talk to you about it is because of the various allegations that’ve been made.

BB: Of course.

CT:  I think it’s important that you have the opportunity to actually answer those allegations. I’ll park that there for a minute, because we have gone slightly off topic.

BB: (laughs) OK.

ON A TOUR

CT: So talk to me a bit more about, so you go to Neverland the first time, but then I think when the Dangerous tour starts in ‘92  you were on a lot of that tour. Is that right?

BB: Yes, that’s correct.

CT: Okay. So, well, that’s a different experience to being at Neverland. So when you’re at Neverland with Michael, it’s a fairly quiet, sedate experience, I would imagine. What’s the difference when you go on tour with Michael?

BB: That’s also more when the superstar person comes out. The tours were hectic. There was a lot, a lot going on from traveling. This is also why I hate talking about it is because it makes me sound so, uh…. I’m absolutely grateful for everything that I’ve experienced. I’ve probably come across as being full of myself or whatnot, but that’s definitely not the case.  So for me to tell these stories so flippantly sometimes is, I don’t know …. It might make me come across a little bit … whatever, but I was just being a part of it all, so again, living in the moment. So for me to say that all the chaos of just having to travel and stuff… it’s nothing to what others on the tour were actually working and doing, doing what they did. It was definitely a lot harder than what I was experiencing, but yeah, it was just pure chaos.

Fans everywhere you would go, there would be people there. The fans, man! They’d be there waiting for us … not for us, for him at the hotel when we were arriving into town and they’d be at the show, then they’d be at the hotel afterwards. Then we’ll be going to the next city and they’re already there. And then going, like, you’d see the same fans, especially a group of fans that went over around Europe, you’d see them every show at the front too.

It became a sort of game to try and spot them, and see where they are, because they weren’t always necessarily in the same spot. But they would always be up at the front. So you’d always pick them out of the crowd.  So we ended up calling, especially one of them was Waldo, from the “Where is Waldo?” books. We called him, where’s Wally here, but I believe I didn’t know where (illegible). So we ended up calling him Waldo. Then another one was there too in that group. He was Waldo too.

(laughter)

You see the same group of fans every, every show at the front, so get back to him as a person so he would be (illegible) off stage, but man, as soon as he went on stage, he was a different being.

For most of the shows I would come out at Heal the World when all the kids would come out. After the big globe was getting, was inflated on stage. A bunch of kids would, from wherever we were at, would come out. And I was always part of that too.

You’d feel the energy coming off the crowd, man. It’s something else to see, just you stand on the stage and you just look out to a sea of people. And this was before mobile phones, of course, so people had cigarette lighters, so you’d see it like it was almost like a galaxy or just looking at the night sky, just all in front of you from all the flames, and the crowds and all these people, and the energy coming off it. And you can see how someone would be able to feed, being up on stage, be able to feed off the energy it could give to you at every show, the same amount of… because to watch these shows were amazing. So to be able to do it at night after night, you can see how the energy of the crowd really pumps you up, because it’s something different. So that’s the things, like, I experienced all these things, and then coming back home to be a regular person, it’s a real contrast.

CT: Would you always be watching the shows from backstage or would you ever be out in the crowd watching them as a fan?

BB: I never really sat out because there was a sound stage in the middle of… If you see any photos or videos of the concerts, there’s a sound stage in the middle of the crowd, that’s where VIPs would sit, like my family would be always sitting there, but I would always sit side stage at the back, so if you were looking at the stage, I was always, always in the back, to the right.

Ashamedly, probably really bad that I admit it, but I’d be there night after night after night, and then I started getting a bit (remember I’m young back then), I started getting a bit bored. So they ended up setting up Sonic the hedgehog, Sega Genesis backstage, and I’d be playing that (both laugh) and then they would call Heal the World would be coming on, so they call me and then I’d get up and go on and heal the world and go back to play Sonic hedgehog.

CT: Well, in fairness to you, I mean, Michael’s shows were not known for their spontaneity. I mean, they were basically, everything was rehearsed, so once you’ve seen the show, you’ve seen it, you know, you get a bit like it’s like watching the same movie over and over and over again.

BB: (laughs) Man, I feel so bad, I feel so bad looking back and saying that now, like what an idiot!

(both laugh) 

CT:  Tell me about the “Jam” video. How did that come about?

BB: Um, I think it was just because we were around, it was coming up, so we thought it would be cool and it really was. I wasn’t part of it. I was just there, behind the scenes. Yeah. Mom and Karlee were there too. We were just there as guests.

CT: Oh, I see. Is that the only time you were on set with him?

BB:  Uh, no, I was, I was at the one with Slash that was filmed over in Europe.

CT: “Give in to me”?

BB: “Give in to me”, yeah, I was there for that one too.

CT: Is it kind of, I mean, you know, maybe it’s not, is it kind of boring being on a video shoot or is it actually exciting?

BB: “Jam” was not so much because there was like … naughty by nature, Chris Cross was there obviously, um, Heavy D came through, Jordan was there of course. So that was pretty exciting to see, but it is very repetitive. It’s the same song played the whole time, and it’s not like the whole song will play because they’ll cut and bring it back, bring it back. So you’re not hearing the complete thing all the time, so it can be very tedious and boring as an onlooker. But it was cool like looking back at it, it was really cool to have to see the process of it, to see how it was done. Because you only see the finished product when you’ve seen it on TV. So to see how it was all done was really cool, like that was a really cool experience.

Oh, we also visited “Ghosts”, how it was filmed. It was supposed to be before Addams’ Family.

CT: Yeah.

BB: We were there at the original filming of it.

CT: Oh wow.

BB:  So we saw that part, so yeah, that was cool. With Stan Winston.

CT: Yeah. This is kind of what I was guessing at earlier about the sort of peering behind the curtain of Michael Jackson, the superstar. So I think a music video probably looks very different when you were there watching it being filmed because you are remembering, you know, 20 hours you were stood around in a cold room, you know, (Brett laughs), bored or whatever, so  it doesn’t quite look the same.

So I guess over time, Michael becomes less of a …. the mystique melts away, and he becomes more of a person. In that time, I think, from your 2005 testimony, it said that you traveled with Michael around South America, North America, Africa, Australia and Europe. Now, when you were on tour visiting these places, would you get to see much of those places or would you, because of the circumstances you were traveling in, would it basically be car, hotel, car, hotel, you know, airplane? What, how much of the world were you seeing on these tours?

BB: Me personally, not so much, because I’m not really that type of, and that’s another one of those unfortunate things that, uh. Yes, I was so young and it wasn’t like I really could… like my family would go out and they went and saw a lot of the stuff, but for me it was …I just couldn’t be bothered. I’m just type of person that likes to even today stay at home and just relax.

So I could have done it, but I chose not to. As I’m saying, this is why I don’t like sharing these stories because it makes me look like a bit of an asshole sometimes, excuse my language. I had the chance to go and see the Sistine chapel, but you can’t wear hats in the chapel, so because I was always wearing a hat, I didn’t want to take my hat off. So I was like nah, I’m not going to go (laughter).

Mind you, I’m like 11, I am 11 or 12. It wasn’t so spectacular to me. That was my viewpoint. I don’t want to take my hat off, so I’m not going to go and see the Sistine chapel. Some of the greatest works of art known to mankind, and I don’t want to take my hat off.

CT: Do you feel like the kind of being in the Michael Jackson superstar world maybe turned into a bit of a diva?

BB: (laughs) That’s exactly what I’m coming across as and apologizing. Please, please believe me, this is not… I’m not that type of person. I’m not that type of person. Well, at least I believe I’m very humble even though the way I’m telling these stories does not come out that way (laughs). 

CT: Do you remember Bob Jones?

BB: Yeah.

CT: So he wrote a book and you were mentioned, as is often the case with Michael Jackson, you pop up in lots of places. So he wrote in his book that you used to be, when you were on tour with Michael, you would be smuggled around in suitcases so that the press would not know you were with Michael. Was that true?

BB: (laughs) Did he put that?

CT: Yeah, yeah he said that, yeah.

BB: Why would I be in a suitcase?

CT: Well, that’s what I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you why you were in a suitcase.

BB: I’ve never been in a suitcase! I would not even …  I’m not claustrophobic, but being in a suitcase is not something that I would want to do.

CT: Okay. Well, I suspected you might say that, but I just wanted to, again…

BB: In a suitcase! (laughs)

CT: You’ve not given an interview since 93. So there’s been a lot of stuff said about you, which you’ve not had the opportunity to comment on. So, it would be untrue for Bob Jonas to say that you were smuggled in suitcases?

BB: Absolutely. Ab-so-lu-te-ly.

CT: OK. And as far as, um, addressing things that have been claimed, I’m just thinking back to Leaving Neverland and the stories that they tell about being on tour with Michael, did you ever feel that there was any effort by Michael or those around Michael to separate you from your family?

BB: No, not at all.  I never experienced that. There was never any time where if I wanted to see my family I wasn’t able to. There was never any time, they were always accessible to not only me – to him as well. It’s not like I was locked away or anything like that at all. At all.

CT: And you never saw that happening to anyone else?

BB: No, not at all.

I WAS AT NEVERLAND WHEN IT WAS RAIDED

CT: Now it was right in the middle of this time, it was in the middle of the Dangerous tour that Neverland was raided. And it has been published in the past that you were actually at Neverland when it was raided. Is that true?

BB: Yeah, that’s true.

CT: Wow. Okay, so what do you remember about that?

BB: (sighs) Again, I was young at the time, so it’s not anything like … nothing profound, really, I remember about it. To me it was just an annoyance because I wasn’t able to carry about my day. I remember …I think it was the sheriffs. One of them obviously wanted to interview me to see if it was uh….obviously to do an interview, make sure nothing’s going on. So I remember having to sit down with him and him just asking questions, but it was just taking up my time. I wanted to go and just enjoy life.

CT: What do you remember about your interaction with that officer? Was it polite?

BB: Yeah, he was real polite.

CT: Okay. So you didn’t have a problem?

BB: No, no. He was just asking questions and it wasn’t like he was, he was threatening or he was intimidating. I seem to remember sitting down, like we are both just sit down, he was just sitting next to me asking these questions, like it was real relaxed, and as I guess you would treat a child that’s potentially being in that …so not having something happen to them.

In case someone forgot it: The police seized all photos, videos, books, journals and computers from Neverland, but didn’t find anything incriminating Jackson. See the LA Times report published after the raid” “There is no medical evidence, no taped evidence”.

 

CT:  Was it frightening seeing all those police all over the ranch?

BB: I don’t remember it being, but I’m going to assume that it’s because there was always people around, whether it be gardeners, workers, maids, everything. There was all the security, there was always like people in uniforms were around all the time, so to me it’s nothing that really stood out.

It’s not like they were… like I don’t remember, I don’t recall there being any rough housing or anything like that. Nothing stands out in my mind, in my memories about it, but from what I remember is just as I said, more so like I couldn’t go and do certain things because I would do whatever they were doing, so it was just more of a hindrance to me rather than anything scary.

CT: And did you understand why they were there? Did you understand what it was that they were investigating?

BB: No. I didn’t really understand the concept of what the allegations were. It was just more so like I’d better be told that he’d done some… that there was some bad things that said about him. That is pretty much the extent of it.

CT: Do you remember how, and when you did come to understand what was actually being alleged?

BB: Uh, well, it was a little bit later. It was more so the impact of everything surrounding it, like the understanding of the physical act of anything inappropriate happening. That I understood, that there’s things that shouldn’t happen.

Like so when the cop, when the sheriff was asking me all those questions, I understood that though there’s certain things that shouldn’t be happening, would be taking place, but to understand the impact of that came at a later stage, if that makes sense.

CT: Yeah. And you say that after that raid and when these allegations, you know, became known, your parents did sit down with you also and talked to you and asked you questions.

BB: Uh huh.

CT: Okay. So did you know Jordan Chandler?

BB: Yeah. He was around a little bit.

CT: Did you understand at that time that he was at the center of all this?

BB: Yeah.

CT: What was your opinion of that?

BB: I couldn’t understand why. It was a lot of confusion as to why, because of the fact of, as I said, my understanding of Applehead being accused of something so bad. So it was a little bit hurtful that he was accused of doing something bad at that point in time, it was just, yeah, it was confusion.

CT: At that time, I think when the raid happened Michael was not on the ranch.

BB: No.

CT: But you were on the ranch.

BB: My mom and Karlee were there too.

CT: When did you next see Michael?

BB: Because of everything was, for lack of a better term, heating up, we decided… Well, I didn’t decide anything of course, I was only a kid. Mom and dad, I think, decided that we shouldn’t come back home. Because everything was sort of getting a little bit… not out of control, but interest in us, let’s say, was pretty high, so we ended up staying over.

We went to, like, Hawaii, the Disney world. Dad came over as well. And so we were like away for a little while, after a couple months when the next time we saw him. The truth is, I can’t really remember. Might have been, um, back on tour.

CT: So maybe on that second leg when he flew out of the country and then Neverland was raided a couple of days later? And I think that was actually the South American leg.

BB: Yeah.

CT: So if you were traveling around South America with him it must have been then.

BB: Yeah.

CT: Because I think ‘93 he did Chile, he did Mexico.

BB: Yeah. We were definitely there.

The tour of South America (Wiki)

~~~

Well, we are not even past the first half of Brett’s interview yet, but some details already need to be clarified and a number of puzzles need to be solved.  

For example, what North American tour did all of them talk about if the American cities were never visited by Jackson on both legs of the Dangerous tour?

And why did Bob Jones say that Brett was smuggled in suitcases “to avoid being seen by the press”? So the press didn’t see him much on the Dangerous tour with Michael? But why?

And given that Brett’s sister Karlee roughly calculated that her brother spent 365 days with MJ just within two years how much time did Brett spend with Michael Jackson in reality?  Is there a way to determine it?

The answers to these and other questions will be given in a separate post. Hopefully, the next part won’t take long 🙂