Jacksons – AEG trial DAYS 68-69. FIVE DOCTORS and NURSE DEBBIE ROWE
Susanne said about Debbie Rowe’s testimony:
- “I almost can’t take any longer how much Michael suffered. It becomes clearer with every word she says what was done to him, but on the other hand it’s also great that many of these health issues are once and for all clarified for the public – scalp burn, vitiligo, discoid lupus, tissue scarring etc. A few years ago I never imagined others than the fans would learn about it in a way it can’t be denied anymore – through a trial with witnesses and everything on record including medical documentation.”
Indeed, it is a tide of emotions and all of us feel that the whole matter has become much bigger than simply the AEG trial. The truth we hear is painful and extremely sad, and it will become even sadder if we don’t learn our own lesson from what was done to Michael.
Michael flashed like a comet across the sky and left us alone, and if everything remains as it was before it will be the worst outcome of all.
Everyone now has something to sit down and think about, and learn from his life story. The first impression is that he really had too much and the second impression is that there was almost no one in the world who did not let him down – the media, the public and all of us included – and this is what makes it so terribly sad.
They threatened us that they would “tell the whole truth” about Michael but they didn’t take into account that the truth about Michael cannot harm him. It is lies that hurt him a lot for the long decades when all those wild stories were raging, while the truth about Michael can only heal.
And this healing process is very difficult for us because learning how much Michael had to suffer and remembering what fun we had at his expense is now giving us an overwhelming feeling of shame, especially when we compare what we thought about him and what all of it was really like for him.
And when we remember the huge and open smile with which he generously showered us with his many gifts and what we gave him back in reply, it makes things only worse.
The hush that fell upon us is necessary. In this silent reflection we will probably be able to join into one man the laughing, gentle and loving genius and the humble sufferer who had to cope with so much physical and emotional pain. For me, for example, these two Michaels are still disassociated from each other as I simply cannot imagine that what we saw on the surface could go hand in hand with so much grief and suffering in reality.
Another incredible fact is that all of it is revolving around 1993 again. For decades they were telling us fictional stories about Michael’s preoccupation in those very months – and now we see that all he was really preoccupied with was his poor scalp and the metal things they put into his skin to stretch it, and that he was in tremendous, totally inhuman pain and had to be given drugs for a mere survival, and that his buttocks were indeed riddled with injections as a result of it and that liar Jordan never noticed them because he never saw his body in the first place, and when the surgery was done the doctor washed his hands of Michael leaving him to his own devices, and other two doctors competed with each other in his pain treatment never minding the consequences, and the consequence was a drug dependency and when one doctor really tried to help and replace narcotic drugs with non-narcotic ones another doctor who didn’t know a thing arrogantly said he knew better and ruined all his efforts and started the narcotic cycle once again, and all this was very well seen by Paul Gongaware and his friend Dr. Finkelstein who were accompanying Michael at the time and there is absolutely no possibility for Gongaware and therefore AEG not to know in 2009 about Michael’s past trouble, and all they say now is a big, very big lie.
And after that they talk of some “dark secrets” of Michael Jackson? And what about hundreds of skeletons packed in their cupboards which fall all over you the moment you accidentally open their door? Look at Dr. Sasaki for example.
DR. SASAKI
Dr. Sasaki
Dr. Sasaki’s video deposition was played on Tuesday August 13, 2013, day 68 of the trial.
Over here he says that he was approached by Dr. Hoefflin for making surgery on Michael’s scalp to reduce the bald spot. This was evidently done after at least two Hoefflin’s failed attempts (in 1984 and 1989) so this time he himself wanted someone else to have another try.
Dr. Sasaki made his first surgery on Michael’s scalp on March 16, 1993 which was exactly the time when Michael was allegedly fully busy with the Chandlers. It was also whole nine years after the burn and had to be done because the first two legs of the Dangerous tour showed to Michael that he could no longer perform with a hair piece on his head.
Karen Faye said about it in her first testimony on May 9, 2013:
- “He was basically okay afterward the initial burn. His skin healed. We used a small hair piece that would cover the top of his head where he’d been burned. Doing that wasn’t the best for performances so Michael had an operation on his scalp for the hair to grow back. A bladder had to be inserted under the skin and stretch the skin”.
The way Dr. Sasaki describes it he used a different technique and after cutting the bald spot put metal pieces on both sides of the wound, connected them with stitches and then “cranked them together”. The idea of this medieval torture was to get 30% of more stretched skin than usual. This was followed by another torture of placing a balloon under his skin to stretch it even further.
I tried to fold my skin on my head and found that it is impossible, so the pain Michael went through when his skin was detached from his skull is hard to even imagine – actually it reminded me of the horror stories about scalping centuries ago. I also noticed that trying to pull your skin to the top of the head produces the effect of a face lift which in my opinion explains certain things, for example, MJ’s looks in “Rock my world”. I always wondered about the way he looked there but now understand – they pulled all his skin to cover the bald spot and it looked like a facelift.
Dr. Sasaki did not say a word about the pain that skin stretching was giving to Michael. All he said was that he relinquished the pain management of MJ willingly and passed it over to his doctors. According to Dr. Sasaki it is “highly unusual” for him not to take care of the patient after surgery but the fact that Dr. Sasaki did it willingly makes me think that he was only too happy not to have to do with the consequences of the operation.
In consistence with the present AEG’s strategy that Michael cultivated friendship with doctors for “drugs only” Dr. Sasaki was asked questions about his visits to Neverland and said that he was there twice with 5 years between the visits. What Dr. Sasaki remembers about those visits that he checked up his wounds, but they talked more about … the Bible, and no drugs were asked for as the judge specifically noted in one of their sidebars.
Since the two visits were 5 years apart and all of it began in 1993 it means in 1998 Dr. Sasaki was still making his medical procedures on Michael’s head. And indeed, Dr. Sasaki says that in October 1997 he made his second operation on Michael’s scalp and said that it was to “reduce the width of the scar”.
The real reason was explained by Debbie Rowe who said that “the area that was done fell apart” and all the pain began again.
Well, it couldn’t have been any different as Michael had lupus and lupus results only on more scarring and poor healing, and I clearly remember Arnold Klein being terribly against those operations. Over here he talks to Larry King about it:
KING: Did he have hair?
KLEIN: He had lost a great deal of it. You forget this first fire…
KING: That was the Pepsi fire, right?
KLEIN: Yes. But then what happened is he used a great deal of what are called tissue expanders in his scalp, which are balloons that grow up — blow up the scalp. And then what they do is they try to cut out the scar. Well, because he had lupus, what happened is every time they would do it, the bald spot would keep enlarging. So, I mean, he went through a lot of painful procedures with these tissue expanders until I put a stop to it. I said no more tissue expanders, because he had to wear a hat all the time and it was really painful for him.
KING: So what would his — without the hat, what would he look like?KLEIN: Well, he had a big raised ball on the top of his head because of this device. It would expand the tissue, which you cut out. But (INAUDIBLE) would you — (INAUDIBLE) too much stretch back in the scar, you understand?
KING: Did you see him one other time?
KLEIN: Of course I did. But he would have a stretch back on the scar. I mean the scar would get worse after they removed it. And I had to put a stop to it. So I told Michael, we have to stop this.
For us it is a torture to even read about all those medical experiments on Michael’s scalp. However Dr. Sasaki sounds absolutely undisturbed and calmly informs us that “normally” pain lasts for 6 weeks after the operation. He also says that he “never talked to Michael Jackson about his pain treatment.” The idea is evidently to show that he did not supply MJ with painkillers but all it tells us is that this indifferent man couldn’t care less about the way his poor patient was coping with his pain.
It is also clear that Dr. Sasaki is not telling us the whole truth, as on the one hand he says he did it willingly, but on the other hand he feigns surprise that Michael was handled by other doctors, but how could it be otherwise if he willingly gave Michael up? Fortunately Michael’s cooperation with Dr. Sasaki ended in May 1998 and Michael remained with the other doctors – which didn’t make his life easier though.
I find the unperturbed way Dr. Sasaki explains the surgery he did on Michael totally amazing. However AEG could have put their hand to it too as they cut out from his video deposition a piece about the neuroma (a painful bundle of nerves forming a keloid) which the operation resulted in. We know about the neuroma from Dr. Schnoll who reviewed Dr. Sasaki’s full deposition and said about it:
Q. Prior to the Dangerous tour, in the very beginning of it, did he have scalp surgery?
A. Yes.
Q. And what kind of surgery — tell the jury a little bit about what that surgery was for.
A. Well, that surgery was to repair the damage to his scalp. There was some contractions, and so they inserted a balloon under the scalp to stretch the scalp back to a normal configuration and remove the scar tissue.
Q. And did you — based on your review of the records, your knowledge of this condition, is this a painful condition?
A. Yes. And in addition, I think — I might not pronounce it properly — Dr. Sasaki reported he had neuroma formation at the time.
Q. Tell the jury what a neuroma is.
A. A neuroma is like a scar that forms on a nerve…. And that is excitable tissue, just like the nerves. And so it can be firing, just as the nerve does, but it fires in an abnormal way. And so that can be very painful and disconcerting to the person who has that neuroma. And it’s often sort of like a burning kind of pain. …it’s persistent. It doesn’t go away. And also it can be a sharp shooting kind of pain at the same time. So it’s very uncomfortable and one of the most difficult kinds of pain to treat.
This is how the pain from neuroma feels – it is like a lightning suddenly striking the nerves. And this NEVER STOPS. (Here is the Source of animation)
The information about the neuroma was cut out from Dr. Sasaki’s deposition and was not heard by the jury. Below is what was left of it after all the cut-and-paste job – the video deposition of Dr. Sasaki came after the AEG financial expert William Ackerman’s testimony.
Tuesday August 13, 2013 DAY 68
AEG called their next witness via video deposition Dr Gordon Hiroshi Sasaki
Jury entered at 3:27 pm PT. Katherine Jackson left for the day.
Q: Question by attorney
A: Answer by Dr. Sasaki
He graduated from Pomona College in 1964, degree in Bachelor of Arts.
He went to Yale University for his medical school, graduated in 1968.
Dr. Sasaki served in Vietnam and wore several hats as doctor, including anesthesia and plastic surgery on days off.
He laughed at that last comment.
Q: Did you ever provide medical treatment to MJ?
A: Yes, I did.
Dr. Sasaki said he did two surgeries on MJ’s scalp and 3 on the upper lip for contouring.
March 16, 1993 was the first surgery Dr. Sasaki performed on MJ. It was to reduce scar on the scalp, the bald spot.
Second surgery was on October 31, 1997 for scar revision to reduce the width of the reduced scar on the scalp.
Dr. Sasaki: The medical care, which included post operation and pain management, were taken out of my hands willingly.
Dr. Sasaki said the care was placed into two other doctors that Mr. Jackson thought would be the best.
Dr. Sasaki said the other two doctors were Steven Hoefflin and Arnold Klein. At some point Dr. Metzger as well, he said.
Dr. Sasaki on how he met MJ: I received a phone call from Dr. Steven Hoefflin, a plastic surgeon.
Dr. Sasaki said he was asked to assist him in providing different alternatives to take care of the bald spot on his scalp.
The consultation with MJ and Dr. Hoefflin was set up, Dr. Sasazi said. Dr. Hoefflin is a well known plastic surgeon in Los Angeles.
The surgery in 1993 lasted about half an hour. Dr. Sasazi explained he put a metal on a side of the defect and a metal on the other side.
He then put stitches going from one side of the metal to the other, crank it to put the sides together.
Dr. Sasaki said the method results in about 30% more skin from stretching. He then put ballon in the scalp to stretch further to cover scar
Dr. Hoefflin was his first assistant in the surgery. Dr. Sasaki said he knew generically that in 1988 MJ had a burn in is scalp [Correction: in 1984].
He said he understands the burn happened during a Pepsi commercial and it had healed, but MJ wanted to reduce the scar.
A similar operation was made on MJ in 1984
The scar was in the middle part of the scalp, Dr. Sasaki said.
Dr. Sasaki: He was kind enough to invite myself and my family to Neverland.
Dr. Sasaki: We went up there, he was not there, but he was not supposed to be there. The staff served us lunch and showed us around.
Dr. Sasaki said he visited Neverland Ranch twice, once with his family and once at MJ”s request.
Dr. Sasaki: I think he just wanted to have me look at his wound, which was healing quite well.
More than talking about him, we talked about the Bible, Dr. Sasaki said.
He said he was there for medical purposes, though. The visits may have been 5 years apart.
The scar was very big even in 1984
Dr. Hoefflin strongly suggested he managed the pain medications since he knew the patient better.
Dr. Sasaki said that with celebrities, when he doesn’t get to see patients frequently, he prefers not to treat them.
Q: Did you provide any post operation pain care?
A: None.
Q: Was that unusual?
A: It’s highly unusual.
Dr. Sasaki said if he doesn’t see the patient regularly he prefers not to give pain medication.
He said he never talked to MJ about the pain treatment.
Dr. Sasaki: I think when you’re dealing with high profile clients, some doctors prefer to keep it under control.
Dr. Sasaki said he did the surgery but didn’t see the patient until 2-3 months later, which is highly unusual.
Q: Did you prescribe any medication to MJ?
A: No.
Dr. Sasaki said normally a patient who undergoes that kind of surgery has pain lasting for 6 weeks.
Dr. Sasaki testified from his record that on June 30, 1993 he had the first post op follow up at the Dr. Klein’s office.
He said MJ was experiencing pain due to his work and rehearsals. He had to wear a hairpiece to camouflage the scar.
Dr. Sasaki said he told Debbie Rowe that the area should be exposed to air as much as possible to heal.
On July 3, 1993, Dr. Sasaki prescribed Percocet for MJ. It was the first time he prescribed pain medication to MJ.
Dr. Sasaki said he spoke with Dr. Klein and that Klein suggested Percocet.
Note: “Percocet is a short-acting oxycodone combination product, meaning that the narcotic is paired in tablet form with an over-the-counter analgesic, in this case, acetaminophen. Percocet is dispensed in tablet form in the following dosages: the first number represents the milligrams of the active narcotic, oxycodone, in each pill; the second number represents the milligrams of acetaminophen in each pill: 2.5 mg / 325 mg – 5 mg / 325 mg 7.5 mg / 325 mg – 7.5 mg / 500 mg – 10 mg / 325 mg – 10 mg / 650 mg.
Depending on the combination of narcotic Oxycodone and non-narcotic acetaminophen in the pill the maximum daily dosage is 6 to 12 pills, so if MJ were to take the maximal doze per day, the 45 tablets would be enough for 4-8 days only.
On July 20, 1993, there was another request for Percocet, due to strenuous rehearsals, prescribed with the knowledge of Dr. Klein.
On Aug 10, 1993, Dr Sasaki received a phone call from Dr. Klein that MJ was experiencing extreme pain.
Doctor said pain was normal 4-6 weeks after surgery due to the nerves growing back.
Dr. Sasaki suggested to Dr. Klein that MJ be seen by a pain management specialist.
I was concerned about pain patterns and his use of Percocet, Dr. Sasaki testified.
Q: Was he taking too much?
A: Yes.
Q: Where you the only person prescribing Percocet to MJ?
A: I don’t know.
Dr. Sasaki said he prescribed 45 tablets of Percocet each time.
Dr. Sasaki told Dr. Klein and MJ he would no longer prescribe Percocet to MJ since he was asking for too much.
Q: Was that very frequent?
A: Frequent.
Percocet prescription, 45 tablets each time, were prescribed on: July 3, July 20 and Aug 10, 1993.
On Aug 15, 1993, Dr. Sasaki said he saw patient, with Debbie Rowe. He was complaining to pain in scar area, area had healed completely [still no mention of the neuroma developed by Michael]
Dr. Sasaki said he injected site with pain reliever, gave Demerol 100 mg, suggested MJ to see pain specialist.
Aug 15, 1993 Dr. Sasaki prescribed Demerol to MJ under Omar Arnold. This was the first and last time Dr. Sasaki gave Demerol to MJ, he said.
Dr. Sasaki explained Demerol is for acute pain, not chronic pain, following major surgery.
Q: About how often do you prescribe Demerol?
A: None.
Because I don’t do that kind of surgery that requires that kind of pain medication, Dr Sasaki testified. [A clear lie!]
Dr. Sasaki said MJ was the only patient he injected with Demerol.
He testified he is not familiar with MJ’s announcement in 1993 about being dependent on prescription medication.
I’m totally ignorant regarding that, Dr. Sasaki said.
May 1998 was last time Dr. Sasaki saw and spoke with MJ. He knew doctors Hoefflin, Klein and Metzger treated MJ back then.
That ended the video deposition. Jurors ordered to return tomorrow at 10:45 am PT. Juror 6 has a court hearing somewhere else.
Debbie Rowe is expected to take the stand tomorrow. We hope to see you then for complete coverage of her testimony.
For the latest, watch @ABC7 and go to http://www.abc7.com . Have a good evening everyone!
So on June 30, 1993 the wound was still unhealed, but Michael was already rehearsing and had to wear a hairpiece though the wound needed to be exposed to air as much as possible. On July 3 Dr. Sasaki prescribed Michael the first painkiller and then two more times after that. The neuroma had already developed and the pain was getting only stronger, however Sasaki’s deposition doctored by the AEG lawyers and shown in court did not disclose it.
Though the rehearsals in the summer of 1993 were rare they did take place as Michael was getting ready for the third leg of the tour. In addition to the neuroma another reason why the pain was increasing was the nightmare arranged for Michael by Evan Chandler. On July 9 Pellicano taped Evan Chandler’s phone conversation with David Schwartz where he threatened Michael with a massacre and ending his career unless he met him at 8 am sharp the next day for a talk where his extortion plans were sure to be laid out.
So Michael had much more reasons for having all that dreadful pain than just an unhealed wound and a bunch of inflamed nerves on his scalp.
On August 10, 1993 Michael was already in extreme pain. His tour was to start in two weeks but his health was still a mess. Producer Marcel Avram complained that on August 19 Michael asked him to cancel or postpone the third leg of the tour. The lawsuit he filed when Michael finally cancelled the remaining concerts several months later said:
He alleges that Jackson barely rehearsed for the tour and indeed requested to cancel or postpone it on Aug. 19–less than one week before the first concert was scheduled to take place in Bangkok.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-29/entertainment/ca-6422_1_pop-star-michael-jackson
So Michael wanted to stay in the US as he needed more time for healing and getting off his medication (and dealing with the Chandlers), only he couldn’t do it as he had to go on the tour.
Dr. Sasaki says that for 6 weeks after the surgery the pain is “normal” forgetting that even one day of that anguish is unbearable without a painkiller, however for Michael this pain lasted for whole five months since the operation on March 16. The reason for it was a neuroma developed as a surgery complication and Michael’s terrible nervous state due to the shock of the allegations which surely aggravated his condition.
DEBBIE ROWE
The next day, on Wednesday August 14 Debbie Rowe was speaking at the trial about the same period of Michael Jackson’s life only this time it was not a formal and fragmented account but the whole truth full of extremely painful details.
Debbie was forced to testify as she was subpoenaed by AEG, so she is not a willing participant in the case. Same as in 2005 her incredibly truthful and sincere testimony was an absolutely crucial one.
She named Hoefflin and Klein “idiots” for competing with each other in post-operative management of Michael’s pain, and said that she approached a third doctor, Dr. Metzger when she realized the hopelessness of the situation – Michael was to leave on a tour but was still dependent on Demerol for his pain. Dr. Matzger worked out a plan to replace narcotics with non-narcotic painkillers. She also mentioned a certain Dr. Forecast sent by the insurance company who exacerbated the problem and turned it into a complete mess by arrogantly defying all recommendations of Dr. Metzger.
We have already heard about Dr. Forecast from Karen Faye who said that on one occasion he drugged Michael so much that he fell over a potted tree and when Karen asked for the concert to be cancelled he took her by the throat, pressed her into the wall and said she didn’t know what she was doing. The concert was eventually cancelled but I will never forget that scene, and hope you won’t either.
Debbie’s account was absolutely dramatic. I am grateful to God that he gave Michael a nurse, friend and wife like Debbie Rowe:
Wednesday August 14, 2013 DAY 69
Hello from the courthouse in downtown LA. Very busy day today in Jackson family vs AEG trial. Debbie Rowe took the stand.
Katherine Jackson was present in court, wearing a floral jacket with purple, fuchsia and grey.
Deborah J. Rowe on the stand. AEG attorney Marvin Putnam is conducting the direct examination. She’s testifying pursuant to a subpoena.
Putnam: How are you doing today?
Rowe: It’s a little warm in here.
Putnam: Did you do anything to prepare for your testimony today?
Rowe: I took a shower (people laughed).
Putnam named several attorneys for both sides and asked Rowe if she knew them. She knew some by name only, mostly she said no.
Rowe said she lives 60 miles away. “I sat in traffic at a light for 20 minutes! 20 minutes!”
He became a patient, that’s how I met him, Rowe said about MJ.
Rowe said she breeds and trains quarter horses and paint horses for 10 years. She was born in Spokane, Washington.
Rowe’s father was a pilot for the Air Force. Her parents divorced, the kids moved to Los Angeles. Rowe was 11.
She went to Hollywood High, ValleyCollege, studied to be a nurse tech, EMT, began working with Dr. Klein.
Rowe studied to be EMT — Emergency Medical Technician. She worked for extern time with Shaffer ambulance company.
Rowe began working with Dr. Klein in July 1978-79. She said she’s not good with dates, but is good with facts. “I hated history,” she jokes.
She graduated high school in 1977, went to college for a year, EMT class and then began working at Dr. Klein.
One of the girls who studied with her worked in the insurance billing of Klein’s office and said the dermatologist was looking for assistant.
He was a legend in his own mind, Rowe said about Dr. Klein. “We had a very high profile clientele.”
Rowe said Klein is a dermatologist, began working on skin diseases, then specialized on Botox and collagen, which he’s most known for now.
She worked with Dr Klein until 1997. Rowe said she’d take patients to the room, take their history, find out why they came to see the doctor
She explained the procedure, return call for the doctor, did biopsy reports, scheduled appointments.
Michael encouraged me to go back to college, Rowe said, that’s why she left Dr. Klein’s office in 97.
Rowe did Antioch University for 2 1/2 years. She got a degree in psychology. Rowe left LA and started her horse breeding in Palmdale.
Rowe said Dr. Klein would see high profile patients after hours or weekend. She got a call from Dr. Klein and tried really hard not to go.
She said even though they we not registered nurses, Dr. Klein called them nurses instead assistants.
Rowe said she opened the door of the room and MJ was there.
“I introduced myself, said nobody does what you do better, you’re amazing. And nobody does what I do better, I’m amazing.” MJ laughed about it and that’s when the friendship started. [Photo Jan.1983]
“I introduced myself, said nobody does what you do better, you’re amazing. And nobody does what I do better, I’m amazing.” She said MJ laughed about it and that’s when the friendship started. This was in 1982 or 84.
This was the first time, to Rowe’s knowledge, that MJ went to see Dr. Klein.
Putnam asked what kind of treatment it was. Rowe asked judge if she’s allowed to disclose medical information about patient. Judge said yes.
He was there for acne, Rowe responded. MJ was a patient of Dr. Klein until the time he passed away.
Rowe said Dr. Klein would call her, but she was probably the worse nurse, not formal at all.
She said she’s great hand holder but not a good to have scientific discussions. And Michael liked her casualness that way.
He came in more frequently, Rowe said after MJ was diagnosed with lupus in 93.
NOTE: This is a typo and should be 1983. Dr.Klein explained to Larry King that he diagnosed Michael with lupus the very first day Michael entered his office:
KING: Doctor, how did you first meet Michael?
DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON’S DERMATOLOGIST: I met Michael because someone had brought him into my office. And they walked into the room with Michael. And I looked one — took one look at him and I said you have lupus erythematosus. Now, this was a long word.
KING: Lupus?
KLEIN: Lupus, yes. I mean, because he had red — a butterfly rash and he also had severe crusting you could see on the anterior portion of his scalp. I mean I always am very visual. I’m a person who would look at the lips of Mona Lisa and not see her smile. I would see the lips.
KING: Was he there because of that condition?
KLEIN: He was there only because a very close friend of his had told him to come see me about the problems he had with his skin. Because he was — he had severe acne, which many people…
KING: Oh, he did?
KLEIN: Yes, he did. And many people made fun of him. He used to remember trying to clean it off and he’d gone to these doctors that really hurt him very much. And he was exquisitely sensitive to pain.
So he walked into my office. He had several things wrong with his skin. So I said — and you have thick crusting of your scalp and you have some hair loss.
He says, well, how do you know this?
I said, because it’s the natural course of lupus. So I then did a biopsy. I diagnosed lupus. And then our relationship went from there.
Debbie Rowe was very attractive
Rowe: “We would speak on the phone, quite often.”
They spoke regularly until they were divorced. Rowe said she married MJ in 1996. They were married for 3 years.
She said she didn’t move to Palmdale until 2002.
Rowe said besides acne, they treated MJ for lupus and vitiligo.
She said she doesn’t remember when collagen was approved by FDA. I know for sure it was during “Dangerous” tour. Putnam said it was 1992/93
MJ was receiving collagen before the tour for acne scar. Botox was not available yet.
Putnam: Was he being given pain medication or numbing?
Rowe: Not in the beginning, I think we did it without anything once or twice.
Rowe said they’d give MJ 100 mg of Demerol intramuscular. “I gave him the injection,” she said. “Because of the pain of collagen injection.”
Putnam: Where there other drugs for pain?
Rowe: The only thing was 100 mg of Demerol.
He had a low tolerance for pain, Rowe said.
P: Valium?
Rowe: No
Putnam: How about percodan?
R: No
Putnam: How about Vicodin?
Rowe: Not for procedures in the office.
Michael respected doctors tremendously that they went to school and studied. And meant no harm, Rowe said, crying.
Rowe begins to cry.
Unfortunately some doctors decided when Michael was in pain that they would try to outbid each other on who could give the better drug.
Michael with Dr. Hoefflin in the 1980s
So he listened to the doctors. Rowe said the doctors were Klein and Hoefflin.
MJ asked Rowe to be present to make sure everything was ok.
“Michael had a very low pain tolerance,” she said.
His fear of pain was incredible, Rowe said, crying. “And I think the doctors took advantage of him in that way.”
Rowe: If someone comes to you and say they’re the best at what they do and someone else that you see claims the same, who do you listen to?
Rowe said Dr Sasaki prescribed Percodan and Vicodin to MJ after the scalp surgery.
Sasaki’s procedure on MJ was extremely painful, Rowe said
Michael and Dr. Klein
Michael Jackson’s doctors:
Klein — dermatologist
Metzger — internist
Hoefflin — plastic surgeon
Rowe went to see MJ twice a day and over the weekend when he had the surgery.
Rowe said docs Klein and Hoefflin were competing. “I was concerned that he was not getting better, the two doctors were going back and forth and I needed one doctor to talk to me. And I chose Dr. Metzger.” Rowe said.
She said she called Metzger as a friend, since it was probably not appropriate to call another doctor to rat out the doctor you worked for.
Klein was not doing what was the best for Michael, Rowe testified.
The only physician who ever did anything, who cared for Michael was Dr. Metzger, Rowe said, crying again.
Putnam asked if there was any other doctor who treated until he passed. “Dr. Murray got in there and killed him, so I don’t know,” she said.
Rowe said that after the burn, his scalp had scars and, because he was black, he developed keloid, thickening, painful scars.
He didn’t want to wear the hairpiece, Rowe said. They were going in and having balloon expansion surgery every week.
His sensitivity to pain was off the charts at this time, Rowe explained.
Putnam: What was your concern with Dr. Hoefflin?
Rowe: Overprescribing medications.
You don’t call someone and say here, let’s take dilaudid instead of aspirin when you’re trying to get off, she said.
These idiots were going back and forth all the time and not caring about him, Rowe said.
Dilaudid is a form of morphine, she said.
Putnam asked if MJ took the stronger painkiller.
No, because I took it away, Rowe said. “Hoefflin gave it to him and I said no, you’re not taking it. So I threw it away.”
He was so afraid of pain because the pain was so great, Rowe recalled.
Rowe said she ended up with Michael all the time, until the procedure was over. “I think he had to rehearse for the tour.”
Dr. Metzger laid out plan to reduce Demerol and substitute medication for non-narcotic.
Rowe: To wean him off narcotic to non-narcotic, because he was leaving to go on tour.
I was the one giving the medication to Michael at the time, Rowe said.
Rowe: He (MJ) had a place in CenturyCity, I worked in BH, I would be there every day to take lunch, stopped before going home.
She would come back if MJ needed. That lasted 6 weeks, until MJ went on tour, she said.
Rowe said she didn’t know anything about Propofol back then. She now knows Diprivan is the same as Propofol.
MJ was getting Diprivan for procedures. Rowe said she doesn’t know if it was at Dr. Hoefflin or Klein’s office, maybe for collagen injection
Rowe said Klein had a handful of patients who got Demerol for collagen injections.
Hoefflin had an anesthesiologist and surgical suite in his office. Over the years, Rowe said Hoefflin gave Diprivan to MJ probably 10 times
Rowe: However, there were occasions that MJ wanted to have it, he had extensive scarring on his nose that made it difficult to breathe.
Rowe said there were occasions Michael asked Hoefflin to do inject steroids on his nose, and Dr. Hoefflin would put MJ out.
He didn’t treat him, he would tape him as he had injected him, Rowe testified.
It took him a little while to wake up, 4-5 hours, which I think it’s normal for plastic surgeon.
Rowe said when anesthetist David Fournier woke MJ up, it was maybe 1 hour for Michael to recover. With Hoefflin, she was there for 4-6 hours
Rowe explained Dr. Hoefflin said he didn’t see the scaring in MJ’s nose, so he wasn’t going to do the procedure.
Putnam: But he told Michael he had done the procedure?
Rowe: Yes
Putnam asked when Propofol was used in MJ. “Only with the injections for scarring around the nose,” Rowe responded.
Putnam: Otherwise he would not have Propofol?
Rowe: Diprivan. All the time I went to see Dr. Hoefflin he put him under.
Rowe: Fournier is a nurse anesthetist, would come to the office with all the equipment to monitor Michael.
Rowe: He was allowed to do it until 1996, when law changed and it had to be done at surgery center.
Rowe said she doesn’t remember who the person giving Diprivan was in Dr. Hoefflin’s office. She described Fournier as a very nice man.
Rowe said MJ got Diprivan (Propofol) when Dr. Klein injected collagen, if we had to do acne treatments.
She said Dr. Klein has 5-6 patients who take Diprivan for collagen injection and Botox.
After lunch, Rowe is back on the stand.
Putnam: How are you doing, Ms. Rowe?
Rowe: I missed you…
Everybody laughed.
Putnam asked if MJ talked about going to doctors office to sleep. “He talked with Dr. Metzger about that,” Rowe said.
She testified that after Hoefflin put him out, it took him 4-5 hours to wake up. Whereas in Klein’s office, in one hour he was fine.
He did have trouble sleeping, Rowe said.
Putnam: Did he tell you he sometimes went to a doctor to be put under to sleep?
Rowe: It was he got sleep after he had the procedure done.
Putnam: So he didn’t get put under to get sleep?
Rowe: No, I misunderstood what you asked (during her deposition).
Putnam played video deposition of Rowe.
Putnam: And did you have an understanding MJ would seek help to sleep at doctor’s office?
Rowe: Not until we became friends
Putnam: Did he ever discuss it with you?
Rowe: Only when I was there
Putnam: Did he get sleep at doctor’s office?
Rowe: Sometimes
Putnam: Do those include the 3 times he was out of the country?
Rowe: Yes
Putnam: You were insisted to be there?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: I wanted to make sure he woke up (crying)
Debbie Rowe: “I wanted to make sure that he woke up”
Putnam: Why did you insist on that?
Rowe: He was put down, procedure didn’t take 1 hour, but for some reason the anesthesiologist put him under, he slept longer than Fournier.
Rowe clarified that MJ wasn’t put to sleep, he didn’t have the IV running, he was in the recovery room sleeping.
Rowe: For whatever reason, he was in the recovery room for 5-6 hours as opposed to an hour in our office.
I don’t know what the difference in how they sedated Michael, Rowe said.
Putnam: Did it concern you?
You make it sound like he was going in all the time, but he wasn’t, Rowe said crying. “You’re talking about a 12 year period.”
Rowe said the scalp surgery was different from the time he was having scar tissue on his nose and couldn’t breathe.
She said MJ would go in sometimes every 6 months, some times sooner than that to see Dr. Hoefflin.
Putnam: How often was he seeing Dr. Klein?
Rowe: In the early 90s, not that often.
Rowe: We tried not using an anesthesiologist, and that’s when Klein suggested to use Demerol.
Rowe: After his scalp surgery, it’s when the issue with his pain became more of a problem. His fear of pain became a bigger issue.
He didn’t have that before, the Demerol he got was enough, Rowe explained.
Rowe said MJ didn’t come in for collagen unless he had to do a performance or appearance somewhere.
Putnam: Did you believe when he told you he was in pain?
Rowe: Klein was injecting him in the lower eyelid, yeah, I believed him.
Rowe said in the beginning when they did the collagen they were doing it on the nasal-labial fold.
But the pain was closer to the nose area because of the scarring, it was turning black and blue.
Rowe: When he’d lose weight, this would come up. He would lose weight because he was rehearsing. He lost 8-9 lbs of water every show he did.
Rowe: It’s when you get to the eyes and around the eyes, it does hurt. We didn’t start doing the center of the face until later.
Rowe said in “Dangerous” tour (92-93) there was collagen for nasal-labial fold, acne treatment and management of lupus.
Rowe said she was assigned to MJ. “He was my patient,” she said. She was the assistant Michael would have.
Rowe said MJ was getting Diprivan with Dr. Hoefflin because it was for surgical procedure.
Rowe said after the procedure with Dr. Sasaki in 93, she was concerned with MJ’s use of prescription drugs.
I don’t remember if it was worse and worse (the pain), or it was just not getting better, Rowe said.
Rowe: MJ had seen Hoefflin, Hoefflin had given him dilaudid and MJ called Klein. Klein didn’t understand anything he was saying on phone.
I left the office and stayed with him at the Sheraton, Rowe said. She believes dilaudid is a morphine.
NOTE: In his interview TMZ (Nov.6, 2009) Klein said he confiscated the Dilaudid given to Michael by Hoefflin so Michael actually didn’t use it:
Klein I don’t think he had a terrible problem with Demerol because you didn’t find tons of narcotics. Now I went over his house once and in his house I found all this Dilaudid that he got from his favourite plastic surgeon and I flushed it all in the toilet, you know? …But I’m telling you, if’s there a bottle of drugs they find in his house and it’s not used, right? There’s these bottles that were not used. It means he didn’t use that drug because it was not important to him. If it was important to him he would have used it.
Levin Yet you had enough alarm that you flushed it down the toilet.
Klein Dilaudid is milligram for milligram ten times stronger than Morphine.
Rowe: He was heavily under the influence of whatever Hoefflin had given him. The bottle on the dresser when I walked in and I took the pills
Rowe: I put them in my purse
Putnam: You took them?
P: Did you tell him you were taking it?
R: Yes
Putnam: What did you say?
Rowe: I’m taking this, you’re f***ed up, I’m sorry..
Putnam: What did he answer?
Rowe: He said yeah, and then I asked if he was ok. Then I unplugged all the phones in the hotel room
Rowe: He liked to talk on the phone, you couldn’t understand him, I didn’t want him to embarrass himself. I was there all night.
Rowe said she doesn’t know why MJ was at the Sheraton, she thinks he never told her.
Rowe said there was Dr. Sasaki in 93, MJ was getting ready for a tour, a leg of a tour, I don’t know which.
Rowe: We couldn’t get grip of pain, Sasaki had stepped away, Hoefflin and Klein were having a pissing contest over who gave him better drugs
Not a contest, a pissing match, Rowe said.
NOTE: In retaliation to Klein Dr. Hoefflin stated that he reviewed Michael’s medical records for August 1993 and found that Klein and Debbie Rowe had given too much Demerol to MJ. However now we know that Debbie Rowe was replacing part of Demerol with a non-narcotic drug suggested by Dr. Metzger, so that Demerol was given to MJ on paper only, but not factually.
“I was shocked to see the huge amount of narcotics … and other medications that both Dr. Klein and [Jackson’s former wife] Debbie Rowe were injecting into Michael,” Hoefflin states.
For example, Klein and Rowe, who worked as a nurse for Klein, injected as much as 1,850 mg of Demerol into Jackson during a three-day period in August 1993, according to Hoefflin’s declaration.
“It is my understanding that this dangerous trend did not end until Michael’s death,” Hoefflin states.
Hoefflin additionally says he believes, based on media reports, that while treating Jackson, Klein “or someone else at his direction, used Demerol, propofol and tranquilizers on Michael Jackson.”
Hoefflin also says the singer’s mother, Katherine Jackson, wanted him to try and find out what happened to her famous offspring . “Jackson’s mother asked Hoefflin to privately investigate her son’s death,” according to court papers filed on behalf of Hoefflin with the Court of Appeal.
But Klein’s lawyers dispute the claim. They state in their appellate court papers that Hoefflin “misrepresented his authority to make statements on behalf of the Jackson family and the estate of Michael Jackson.”
The plastic surgeon says he and Klein had a falling-out in 2002 when the dermatologist “advised Michael Jackson not to go into a planned drug rehabilitation program.”
Out of the medication the two “idiots” gave to Michael sometimes Debbie gave him none at all:
Rowe said MJ was fine the next morning, he didn’t need anything.
I didn’t leave dilaudid with him and didn’t leave the medication that Klein sent him, Rowe explained.
Rowe said she took meds from Klein’s office and she knows Hoefflin’s drugs came from his office also, there was no prescription.
Putnam: Was Dr. Klein giving MJ Demerol?
Rowe: If he was seeing Klein for acne treatment, yes.
Rowe said it started with 50 mg of Demerol, Klein bumped up to 100 mg, then 100 mg with 50 mg of Vistaril. She said the Vistaril was to give less demerol. Vistaril is like benadryl, she explained.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to why Dr. Kelin was giving those two drugs together?
Rowe: To give less Demerol. Because Vistaril causes the medication to work more efficiently, or enhances it.
Rowe: There were times I’d take half the Demerol out and give more Vistaril. Because I didn’t think he needed that much.
Putnam: Did you ever tell Klein you changed the doses?
Rowe: No. He was my boss, he was the doctor, he didn’t need to know I called Metzger.
Putnam asked about the Fentanyl patch. Rowe said she doesn’t know the details of the patch, but knows about the patch.
A keloid scar (exhibit from the AEG trial). A similar scar on Michael’s head was stretched by a balloon for at least three months
Rowe: It was after Dr. Sasaki. … Because we couldn’t get a grip on the pain as that tissue expander gets bigger and bigger, it causes a lot more pressure, a lot more pain, it’s stretching all scar tissue I don’t remember where in this three-month treatment the patch was used.
Putnam: So you were reducing the dosage. How often did you do that with Mr. Jackson in this time period?
Rowe: If he came in more than once a week. The closer it got to him leaving to go on tour the more often it was because he would have to fly Klein to see him on tour, and that got expensive.
Q. Were you concerned about any other drugs that Mr. Jackson was taking?
A. Michael was getting ready to go on tour. It was after the Sasaki surgery. He wasn’t completely off the Demerol, but he was right there. He was on Toradol, which is a non-narcotic, and he was right there. And it was a fight to get him there, because he had such fear of the pain that what would happen if we didn’t catch it before it gets to a certain point, then you have to go overboard, you have to go a different way. And he was doing so well, and I didn’t want anything to get screwed up.
Rowe: I talked to him and asked him how he was one morning, and he said he didn’t feel good. And I said, “well, I’ll just bring you soup for lunch then” and I said, “I have to see a patient, so I won’t be there until later”. And I probably would have gotten there like 1:30 or 2:00 and everything was gone at the house. His instruments, his clothes, everything was gone. And I called – I think it was Evvy that was working for him – and she said, “he’s gone on tour” and I said, “well, how could he just go on tour? He doesn’t have any of the stuff” and she said – she sounded like they took him, there was really nothing we can do.
Rowe: I didn’t know he was leaving. So I called Dr. Metzger and told him how concerned I was. And I got a call from Dr. Metzger after I’d already gotten home from work that day, and he said that I needed to take all the medication that I had had for Michael for bringing him off the Demerol and getting him on the Toradol – I needed to take it to this doctor at the Peninsula hotel in Beverly Hills. And I said okay. Now, Dr. Metzger had written specific instructions on what medications were supposed to be given, when they were supposed to be given, and I had all of my notes that I wrote after I did – I always called the doctor before I did something, I always made a note when I did it, I always called the doctor afterwards to let them know what was happening.
I met the doctor at the Peninsula, and I offered to go over everything with him; and he just grabbed the bag and said, “I know what I’m doing.” And he didn’t want to listen to anything I said, Rowe recalled crying.
And I called Dr. Metzger and told him I was worried about it. And then I found out that Forecast had gone to Bangkok and the first thing he did was give Michael 100 milligrams of Demerol. And I’m like he screwed everything up that we had done, Rowe said, crying.
Rowe then points to Jessica Bina, attorney for AEG, and says “She’s mad because… what????”
Judge said attorneys need to talk sometimes.
Putnam: Were you trying to get him off the drugs?
Rowe: At the very end of this time period yes
P: Why?
R: Because he was going on tour. That was after the procedure with Gordon Sasaki, and before he was gone on tour.
Q. And did that happen one time or two times in Century City?
R: I was there almost every night.
You can’t do narcotics forever. He knew that. He knew he had to go on Toradol, Rowe recalled.
Rowe said Dr. Metzger designed a plan diminishing the amount of medication and increasing or using other ones.
Q. And did Dr. Metzger come and stay with you at any point in Century City with Mr. Jackson to try to help with this?
Debbie Rowe: “When I stayed in Century City I was by myself”
Rowe: He saw him during the day. I don’t know if Dr. Metzger went to see him at the house or the condo or if Michael went to his office. But when I was there at night, I was by myself.
Q. An did you stay every night?
R: Most nights.
Q. And why was that?
R: He was my friend.
Q. Were you staying there to help with the post-op, or were you there to help him try to get off the drugs?
R: Both.
Q. And did Mr. Jackson understand that you were trying to help him get off the drugs?
R: Yes. – – We talked about it.
Q. And did he say that he wanted to get off the drugs?
R: I kind of don’t give people that luxury of an option.
Q. What do you mean by that?
R: I’m probably one of the only people that said no to him, so as far as I was concerned , this is what the doctor decided, and this is what was going to be done. And he respected the doctors, and their opinions, and what they wanted with the prescription drugs, so he did what he was told to do by the doctors.
Q. You mentioned that you talked to Dr. Metzger about your concern about the fact that Dr. Hoefflin and Dr. Klein were competing with each other in terms of giving drugs, correct?
Rowe: Yes. And Metzger did speak to both of them.
She heard Metzger on the phone with Klein, said they then became using Vistaril. “I think that was the point that Klein added Vistaril to using Demerol.”
Q. You said that by the time you went to the Peninsula, you thought it was going well?
R: I did.
Q. Why was that?
R: Because he was like a quarter of a patch of Demerol — it may have been Fentanyl and maybe all this time I thought it was a Demerol patch and I remember incorrectly. But it was only a quarter of a patch that he had, and he was on Toradol. There were no injections.
Q. And was he proud of himself? Was he glad?
R. Michael wasn’t a prideful person, so —
Rowe said she told MJ in Mexico City that he had a problem with drugs.
During the 3 week period in Century City, she didn’t say it was a problem. “I said you’re taking too much, you can’t take this forever.”
Q. Were you proud of the fact that he managed to wean himself off it in a three-week period?
A. I was relieved that he was able to take something less and that he wasn’t in the pain that he was in after the surgery.
Putnam: Do you know the amount of Demerol he was taking?
Rowe: Dr. Metzger probably did because of the plan he had put together.
Putnam: Was it a difficult 3 weeks?
Rowe: It was for Michael. The fear of the pain, he was very restless. There was a lot of stuff going on [the Chandlers], and I had no idea anything was going on, I didn’t even know he was getting ready to go on tour.
Putnam: And when you went to his apartment everything was gone?
Rowe: I didn’t know he was leaving.
Rowe: But we weren’t finished with everything, and that was why I was so upset that this Dr. Forecast wouldn’t listen to what Dr. Metzger — Forecast hadn’t been in on anything that had happened over the last few months. He didn’t know, but he was taking everything and being an arrogant ass about it.
Rowe said she was at the Peninsula Hotel for not even 5 minutes. She met Dr. Forecast in the lobby.
Q. Did you bring Dr. Forecast something?
R. I brought him the medications, I brought him the records, the copies. I brought him the plan that had been laid out by Dr. Metzger, and all my notes.
Q. And where did you get that material?
R. My information I have. I had a copy of the plan because Dr. Metzger had to give it to me. And I would fax him or call Metzger — I was very obsessed about taking notes when I was doing something, especially if it was out of the office. And I took the notes, and I would fax them to Dr. Metzger, but at the end when anything was done, I would give him the original notes and they would be in his chart.
Q. And this material you brought to Dr. Forecast, it was all in your possession before you brought it?
R. Yeah. It’s not like it was a ton of material. It was – it was whatever the patches were. I believe there was some Demerol, there was some Toradol. I don’t remember if it was injectable or if it was the pill form. And there was my notes and everything that had been done. And I made sure Metzger’s number was on it, Klein’s number was on it, and that is both their home number and the office number, like the private lines and stuff.
Q. And had Dr. Metzger told you to bring that to this Dr. Forecast?
R. Yes.
Q. And was that all the material you had been using the prior three weeks for this program?
R. Yes.
Q. And did you have an understanding when you went there that this Dr. Forecast was going on the tour?
R. That’s what I was told.
Dr. Klein treated MJ while on tour. Rowe went with him. She remembered going on the Dangerous and HIStory tours and end of Bad tour.
Bad tour was just acne treatment, Rowe said. Dangerous tour was acne, collagen and vitiligo; HIStory acne, vitiligo, lupus, collagen.
Putnam: How about Botox?
Rowe: I don’t think Botox was approved before I left.
Putnam: How do you travel with collagen?
Rowe: It’s almost like you ship the seed of love from a horse in a thermos.
Everyone laughed.
Rowe: I’d give Demerol and Disteril and Dr. Klein would treat him.
Putnam: Was there a time on tour you were concerned with MJ misusing Demerol?
Rowe: Mexico City
Rowe said MJ was supposed to go to Puerto Rico after Mexico City, but never made it.
He was a hot mess, Rowe said when she saw him in Mexico City.
He was depressed, he had taken something, I don’t know what he had taken or he had gotten it from, Rowe recalled.
He was on something, that he was taking something. I thought he was back on Demerol, Rowe said.
Debbie Rowe: “Then I went to Mexico and he was a completely different person”. Mexico November, 1993
Rowe: I walked into the room, his suites were never a mess. The suite was a mess. He wasn’t kept, he was always kept.
Rowe: He wasn’t making eye contact, he wasn’t speaking, he didn’t make sense when he did and he said was having problem with his scalp again
We got in a fight, Rowe said. “I’m hot headed, I went off on him about Forecast.”
Rowe: I was angry that Forecast had intercepted Metzger, that Forecast had undermined everything that was done.
I thought Forecast was hurting him not helping, Rowe explained. “He was arrogant.”
It had only been 6 weeks since Rowe had seen Michael. “Then I went to Mexico City and he was a completely different person,” she said.
“You cannot go to Puerto Rico.” Rowe said, “You go to Puerto Rico, it’s like being in the United States, and you can’t go looking and acting like this.” I said. “You need to straighten up, you need to face whatever it is that’s going on, and we’ll get through it. You can’t just do this.” I was really angry.
This fight went on for 2-3 days, Rowe said. “You have to go somewhere to get better or it’s not gonna work,” Rowe told MJ.
Putnam: Did he admit he had a problem?
Rowe: He knew that he screwed up. He knew he was messed up. He did.
He went to some place in England, rehab.
Rowe: “Michael and I had very few fights. When we had them it was lulus.”
NOTE: Lulu, Definition: Thing considered to be outstanding in size, appearance, etc.
“And because we were such good friends, when we would get back together, it was both of us – I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” She cried on the stand again.
I’m talking about what happened, why I flew off the handle, why –if he flew off the handle, why he got angry. So we talked about it, and I said, you know, “I’m not about to lose my best friend over something like this … I realized you’re going through it, I’m not. I realize I can’t protect you, I can’t – I can’t make everything better, as much as I want to, so you have to do it.” And I reminded him how strong he was. I said, “It will pass.” I said, “You haven’t done anything, and you just need to be strong”.
Q. Did he say why he was angry with you?
A. He was – he wasn’t really mad at me. It was more he felt that he had disappointed me. And I told him that he hadn’t disappointed me; that I blamed it on Forecast, and that I feel a doctor has a responsibility to a patient. Forecast was yet another doctor that didn’t put him first as a patient, as a human being, as somebody who needed a doctor.
Q. Did you confront Dr. Forecast?
A. No. They wouldn’t let me see him, the management people.
He trusted people. He foolishly, foolishly trusted a lot of people, Rowe said. “He knew I was going to go and chew his a** out.”
Rowe: I asked security to talk to the doctor, they said I needed to get it cleared, and was told no.
As far as she knows MJ completed the rehab program.
Putnam: Did you see him after rehab?
Rowe: Yes
P: How did he look?
R: He looked great
P: Did you talk to him about it?
R: No, it didn’t interest me at the time. He said he was feeling better and was ok, Rowe testified.
Putnam: After that time, was there ever another time where you were worried about him in terms of his use of Demerol?
MJ and LMP. Making History (the umbrella is held by James Safechuck)
A. I’m trying to remember. I’m really trying. Not like that, no. Because – no, because he was fine. He was clean. Because it was, you know, within like three years. I mean, at that time, he’d started doing I think the History album, and he was recording, and he was really, really busy, like all the time busy.
Q. And he seemed fine?
A. Yeah. He would actually come to Klein’s office – I went to pick him up a couple of times because oh, my god, he was a horrible driver, and I didn’t want him driving the Canyon from the Valley to Beverly Hills by himself because then he’d be like on the phone. Cell phones were kind of new in the cars, and just – it was sad. He needed a driver.
Q. He seemed okay to you?
A. He was fine. And then he saw Klein, and then I would take him back to the studio and he’d be working.
Q. And during that time, would he still be getting Demerol from Klein when he would have procedures?
A. I would have to see the chart. But I know on occasions, no, there was no Demerol or Vistaril.
Q. You said on occasions. On other occasions, were there?
A. Yes, After the surgery, the area that was done fell apart, just because of the Discoid Lupus, the skin was what you call friable, it’s very soft, mushy, and it just – everything just started falling apart. So it started with the pain again and managing so that he wouldn’t get the Keloids and the scarring.
Q. And he continued to get Demerol then, from Dr. Klein in this time period up until you left Dr. Klein’s office?
Debbie accompanied Michael on the History tour. I suddenly remembered that LMP called “the nurse” and told her to stay away from her husband
A. He did, but he wasn’t at the office an inordinate amount of time — many times.
Q. So you weren’t worried?
A. No, because I saw him on the set working when he was doing videos, taping videos, and he looked great.
She saw him on set of “Ghost” and he looked great, Rowe recalls.
Putnam asked about MJ using Propofol for sleep. It happened only in Germany, and it was 2 days, she responded.
Rowe said Prince was a baby, it was 1996, 97 during HIStory tour. “There were 2 anesthesiologists and equipment, looked like surgical suite”
Putnam: So in Germany during HIStory tour, MJ was taking propofol/diprivan to sleep?
Rowe: Only those two occasions.
I believe it was set up through Dr. Metzger, she said.
Putnam: And no procedure was being done, just to sleep?
Rowe: Yes
Putnam: Two nights in a row?
Rowe: You guys haven’t seen a concert of his. There’s no way – no way he could ever do a concert two nights in a row. His shows were so physical. And so he always had at least one night, usually two nights in between, from what I remember.
Rowe explained the two occasions during the German tour when Propofol was used right the night before the show:
Day 1 night before show — Propofol
Day 2 show
Day 3 nothing
Day 4 Propofol
Day 5 show
Rowe said Propofol was not done in Paris and London. In Germany, MJ was in a hotel room, doctors came in and set it up.
I didn’t know we were going to have a second time. She said she didn’t know there was going to be a first time either.
Rowe said MJ had called Metzger and said he didn’t sleep. “I called Metzger to find out what we could do,” Rowe described.
They had set everything up and Metzger said the doctors were coming. Rowe said she voiced her concerns to MJ and Metzger.
She said it was a little drastic to do something like that and they were in another country, she didn’t know the name of the medications.
Rowe said Dr. Metzger talked to Michael and it wasn’t Dr. Metzger’s first choice.
Putnam: Why diprivan, not sedative, sleeping pills?
Rowe: I think he tried and it didn’t work. And if he couldn’t sleep, he couldn’t perform.
He said he was at the end of his rope and didn’t know what else to do, Rowe recalled.
P: Did he indicate he had done it before?
R: No
Putnam: Did he indicate he was worried about this?
Rowe: He didn’t seem to be. We sat with the doctors and went over all the risks/concerns
“They said it was the same stuff we had used in the States,” Rowe explained.
She’s familiar with Fentanyl, Diprivan, but not Propofol, never used that word. “They warned him that any anesthesia is dangerous” Rowe said
Putnam: Did you tell him you were afraid he might die?
Rowe: No, I said what happens if you die. “He had so many procedures done with Hoefflin I don’t think he was worried about it,” Rowe said.
Putnam: Did he seem worried at all?
Rowe: No, he just seemed worried about not sleeping.
Rowe said the doctors did a physical on MJ prior. “I was very impressed, I was very comfortable with Michael being under their care.”
Debbie left his side because the baby was there and she was going back and forth. It was a hard 8 hours period, Rowe said about Diprivan/Propofol. “It was 8 hours and that was it.”
Rowe said next day MJ warmed up with his voice coach on the phone. He never talked to anybody on the day of the performance, rested voice during the day, but when he was at the venue he did the meet-and-greets and was with Karen to do the make-up.
I spoke to him the next day. I asked how he was feeling and he said that he had felt better, Rowe remembered.
Putnam: Did you remain concerned he had done this?
Rowe: No, it was the one time
Putnam: But then he did it again one day later?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: He said he hadn’t slept after the concert. And I called Dr. Metzger, and I believe it was decided that this isn’t something you can do all the time. You absolutely cannot do it.
Rowe: Dr. Stoll and his assistant did it. They did a physical, it was almost exactly the same as the first time.
They were a little more emphatically you can’t do this, we are not doing this again, Rowe said.
Rowe: It was the end of the tour or something that he was going to be going home, so we were going to get the sleep – have the issue addressed, and he’s always had a sleep disorder, but I don’t remember why it had kicked in high gear like it had at that point.
Q. And when you say that you were going to have it addressed, what do you mean?
A. Like we were going to like go to a sleep — sleep facility for – I don’t know what you call it.
Q. And did you do that?
A. We did. We did biofeedback. There were a couple of doctors that he spoke to and saw regarding the sleep. But again, I don’t remember how long after that was.
Q. Do you remember the doctors’ names?
A. No. I didn’t go to those appointments. I was the one that suggested let’s do biofeedback and things like that, but I don’t know the doctors to talk to for that, so Dr. Metzger had set those up. And I believe Dr. Metzger was with him, or had set up the appointments and stuff, and that he just went.
Even with the doctors in Germany, he woke up, she said. “He was not sound asleep like when he saw Dr. Hoefflin.”
Rowe: In Germany, he was awake right away after the drip had stopped and was able to function and walk around within an hour. With Hoefflin, he was in the recovery room, with oxygen, for 5-6 hrs
He’d come to Klein’s office and sleep, Rowe said.
Putnam: With Diprivan?
Rowe: No just sleep. He slept when he had procedures.
Rowe: He slept when he had the procedures at Hoefflin and he slept after Hoefflin had done the procedure.
Rowe: But that was the only place that had happened that I had seen Michael have anesthesia, that was only place it happened, at Hoefflin’s
Putnam: After second time in hotel room, were you concerned he was going to do it again?
Rowe: That wasn’t going to happened again.
Q. And tell me about that conversation.
A. It wasn’t really much of a conversation other than that’s just not going to happen again.
Q. And why not?
A. It just wasn’t going to happen again. We weren’t going to do it.
You don’t give someone Diprivan to sleep. It’s not appropriate, it’s not a labeled use, Rowe expressed.
Rowe: He didn’t do it after that. He did it one more time. After those two times, he never did it when I was around. It was not going to happen.
Q. And if he did it any other time after that, you weren’t present, correct?
A. No, because it would not have happened.
Putnam: Did security, nanny see him being put under?
A. Did they come in while he was asleep? I’m not going to let someone come in there while he’s asleep. That’s kind of rude.
Q. That’s why I’m asking. So did anybody come in besides the doctors and you when Mr. Jackson was hooked up?
A. Grace might have, my nanny.
Q. Okay. But you just don’t recall?
A. Do you let people in your bedroom? Because that’s kind of weird.
Debbie Rowe: “I would go to Europe every other week to see Prince. We were making Paris”
Rowe took notes of the procedure and gave Dr. Metzger to include in his chart. “Then I took the copies from the doctors and asked them to write the letter and then they also sent Dr. Metzger a letter, I think later –“
“I worked with Dr. Klein until 1997. I would go to Europe every – every other week to see the kids – well, to see Prince. We were making Paris.”
Rowe: After Michael and I decided to separate, Michael got “custody” of the doctors.
Rowe: It was more important for me that he had Metzger.
Rowe: Because Metzger cared about Michael as a human being, wanted the best for him, talked to him for hours.
Rowe: Michael could be strong-willed for about 10 minutes, then reasonable and he respected Dr. Metzger very much.
Rowe: We were married. When I was no longer working with Dr. Klein, I felt like I had a completely different role in his life.
I couldn’t go in to Dr Klein’s office and look at his chart, it’s illegal. I felt if he wanted me there he’d talk to me about it Rowe said.
He needed somebody to be there for him, to not take him, to not look at him as a cash cow, Rowe expressed.
Rowe: I wasn’t sure how Michael would be when he woke up. We’d stay in different areas of the hotel because fans would keep the baby awake and I enjoy my sleep.
Rowe said that he told Grace if MJ came up and was not right to not let him alone with the baby.
Klein at one time was a brilliant physician, and it was very sad what happened to him, Rowe testified.
Rowe said they would get together at Klein’s office and talk. “Everybody agreed that it was a little too much to have Diprivan to sleep.”
Paris was four when Rowe saw Michael the last time. That would’ve been in 2003.
Putnam: When it came out he died of overdose of Propofol, how did you react?
Rowe: I actually called Dr Klein and said ‘what did you give him, you killed him’ because TMZ had shown – – Objection.
She thought he was responsible in some way Rowe testified, but eventually she learned that it was this Propofol stuff
Rowe: I didn’t know what Propofol was. I still didn’t know what it was. I think it was at a deposition I was told it was the same thing (as diprivan)
Putnam: Other than Germany, was there any other time MJ used Diprivan to sleep?
Rowe: Not that I was aware of, no.
Putnam concluded direct examination.
Deborah Chang, attorneys for the Jacksons, did cross examination at 3:55 pm PT.
Chang asked how Rowe was. “I have a headache to die for, I’m tired,” Rowe said.
At the day of the deposition, plaintiffs didn’t show up. Rowe said AEG attorneys told her they didn’t want to come.
Rowe hung up on Mrs. Jackson’s assistant when asked to talk to KJ’s attorney because she said she didn’t want to testify on anyone’s behalf.
She’s here now because of defendant’s subpoena, would not come to testify voluntarily.
Rowe is not the legal guardian of either Prince and Paris Jackson. Mrs. Jackson and TJ Jackson are, she said.
Chang asked if prior to this year is it true she spent little time with Prince and Paris. Rowe said that was true.
Rowe said she reestablished seeing daughter Paris this year. She never spoke to the kids about this lawsuit.
It was not like we ever hated each other, Rowe said about MJ.
Chang: Do you agree you were close friends for 20 years?
Rowe: Yes, longer.
Chang: But communication got complicated because of divorce lawyers?
Rowe: There were divorce lawyers/personal assistants that were annoying and difficult.
Rowe said at Klein’s office they did studies of collagen and Botox. She knew Dr. Klein well.
Chang: Despite what you think of him now, was Dr. Klein considered a respected dermatologist?
Rowe: He was, he was brilliant. He was a professor at UCLA and Stanford.
First time MJ went to Dr. Klein he was still in his 20s, and acne caused embarrassment, Rowe said.
MJ had discoid lupus, which is a disease in the skin, Rowe said. Discoid lupus is not systemic lupus, which is throughout the body.
His scarring was from the burn in the Pepsi commercial, Rowe said. MJ also had vitiligo, which causes discoloration of the skin.
Chang wants to show a picture of a black male’s hand with vitiligo. Defendants objected, Chang asked for sidebar.
Judge broke session until today at 9:30 am PT. Rowe is ordered back. We hope to see you here for full coverage.
So Putnam keeps talking of propofol which was used mainly for legitimate procedures and only twice for off-label use (when MJ “was at the end of the rope” and had to get ready for the two final concerts during the History tour).
And Debbie keeps talking about opiate medications the dependency on which was really growing on Michael and became his real problem in 1993.
Propofol wasn’t Michael’s problem until AEG forced Michael into 50 shows and even then it could have been avoided or brought to a minimum if Michael had had enough time between the shows for natural sleep and hadn’t been terribly pressured by AEG about those rehearsals. Propofol/Diprivan was Michael’s last resort and if things had not come to the worst there would have never been any need for propofol either.
It was only the opiate use in 1993 that was a problem. However even here things were quite reversible as Debbie’s and Dr. Metzger’s recovery program of weaning Michael off them proved it.
And the opiates turned into a problem only when two more doctors stepped into Michael’s life and these were Dr. Forecast and Dr. Finkelstein. Debbie says that Michael was progressing well, but one or the other of those two doctors ruined everything by disregarding Dr. Metzger’s recommendations and this spinned Michael’s opiate dependency out of control, making him cancel the tour and bringing upon him all the financial and reputational problems it involved.
Which of those two doctors undermined Dr. Metzger’s plans to wean MJ off narcotic painkillers? Debbie Rowe says it was Dr. Forecast, so let us look at him first.
DR. FORECAST
Both Debbie Rowe and Karen Faye say that this arrogant doctor was sent by the insurance company. His mission was most probably to make sure that Michael’s health was in line with his insurance policy obtained by Marcel Avram prior to the tour, see that MJ should not take drugs, be on the spot in case some emergency took place and decide whether he was eligible to the insurance premium in case of the tour cancellation. And take overall care of Michael’s health of course as he was assigned to Michael as his personal doctor.
In his video deposition on July 8, 2013 Dr. Finkelstein said Dr. Forecast’s job was to take care of the principal (Michael Jackson):
Q. What was his role?
Dr. Finkelstein: He took care of the principal, Mr. Jackson.
Q. Do you know who was employing Dr. Forecast?
A. For sure or for my speculation?
Q. For sure. For sure. I mean, do you know what — do you know who was paying his checks?
A. No, I don’t.
If Debbie is correct in her assumption it means that this arrogant doctor was the first to give Michael narcotics and ruin Dr. Matzger’s plan to replace them with non-narcotic pain relievers.
So the doctor sent by the insurance company to make sure that he would not take drugs was actually the one who gave them to Michael? And though his business was not to allow a cancellation he was the one ultimately responsible for it? What incredible discoveries we are making here.
Dr. Finkelstein said that Dr. Forecast joined him after the Bangkok concert and was through the entire tour till its cancellation in November 1993. At one point Finkelstein learned that Forecast had broken into his suitcase and taken narcotic medications for MJ. This was in Mexico city where he says that Dr. Forecast grew “a little concerned”. After Mexico they started to collaborate and Dr. Finkelstein even wanted “to detox Michael in Switzerland”.
Well, Mexico City was actually where the tour ended, so starting collaborating in Mexico was a little too late – if they really wanted to help Michael it should have been done much earlier:
Q. What happened in Mexico City?
Dr. Finkelstein: After I took care of Mr. Jackson and he went on stage, another doctor from England came and assumed responsibility for Mr. Jackson. And we were in Mexico City for three weeks’ period of time. And I came back from a trip to the pyramids, and my suitcase, out of which I had all my medications in, was broken into. And at that time, the doctor, you know, told me what — that he had broken into my suitcase to get medications. And he was a little concerned. He didn’t want to get kind of blamed for a problem that he felt that he inherited. And we started to kind of collaborate because we didn’t want to take the hit for something that somebody else had done before us, and we started to strategize on how to deal with this situation.
Q. And did you come up with a strategy?
A. I came up with my strategy.
Q. What was that?
A. I wanted to; you know, detox him in a chalet in Switzerland and go on with the tour.
Q. And was — and this other doctor from England, was that a man named Dr. Forecast?
A. Correct.
Q. And was — and this other doctor from England, was that a man named Dr. Forecast?
A. Correct.
Q. And did Dr. Forecast tell you why he broke into your suitcase?
A. To get the medication.
Q. And — but what — why did he need the medication so badly that he broke into your suitcase to get it?
A. He didn’t have any.
Q. And — but who was the medication for?
A. The medi- — I had a suitcase full of whatever medication I thought that 160 people would need traveling around the world. So, I mean, I just carried — I tried to anticipate every — any problem that could happen to be prepared to deal with 160 people in third world countries and anywhere around the world.
Q. Ok, I understand. But did Dr. Forecast break into your suitcase to get any specific medication? If you know.
A. Yes.
Q. What specific medication did he break into your suitcase to get?
A. The pain meds.
Q. Demerol?
A. I don’t recall if it was Demerol or morphine or both.
Q. Ok, and did he break in to get the pain medication to give it to Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, so you saw Dr. Forecast give the medication to Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know who was employing Dr. Forecast?
A. For sure or for my speculation?
Q. For sure. For sure. I mean, do you know what — do you know who was paying his checks?
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Ok, did Mr. Jackson collapse or something in Mexico City? Was there — was it like — was there an issue or just — what happened, I mean?
A. He did not collapse.
Q. Ok,
A. It seemed that it — I — it seemed that Dr. Forecast was having a harder and harder time keeping up with the demand for the pain medications. Also at that time in Mexico City, I do recall that there was a videotaped interview for a deposition concerning Chandler on the child molestation charge, and at that time, they had a videotaped deposition in Mexico. [Correction: The deposition did not concern the Chandler case]
Q. And are — did that deposition cause Mr. Jackson some stress?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok and do you believe that that stress also increased his urge to take the opiates?
A. Yes.
Deposition in Mexico in November 1993
Dr. Finkelstein is wrong – the deposition did not concern the Chandler case. It was due to another ridiculous claim that some Michael’s songs were plagiarized by him, but the seven-hour long deposition was surely a strain for Michael (in addition to all the rest of it!).
We saw the deposition and Michael was a complete darling there as he patiently answered a hundred silly questions, but we also noticed that he had some memory lapses and was not quite himself.
Paul Gongaware was naturally in the know of what was going on with Michael as Dr. Finkelstein was his friend who certainly shared his observations with him.
So when now Gongaware says that “he never knew” until he suddenly heard Michael’s announcement on TV in 1993 it is a big, very big lie and Dr.Finkelstein confirms it:
Q. And it was your understanding that Mr. Gongaware was aware of the opiate problems that Mr. Jackson was having; correct?
Dr. Finkelstein: Yes.
Q. And did you ever discuss with Mr. Gongaware your thoughts on how you could perhaps, you know, help Michael get better?
A. We would have had that discussion with Dr. Forecast.
Q. Ok, and do you remember what was discussed?
A. We thought that we needed to do an intervention. He needed to be detoxed.
Q. And is that what led to Elizabeth Taylor coming into Mexico City?
A. Yes.
….Q. Ok, Now, was Mr. Gongaware in Mexico City?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, did you speak to Mr. Gongaware a lot on this tour?
A. He’s my friend.
Q. Ok, Did you talk to him every day pretty much on the tour?
A. Pretty much.
Q. And would you talk to him about what was going on with the artist?
A. Yes.
Q. So is it a fair assumption that you would have told Mr. Gongaware what was going on with Mr. Jackson’s opiate problems on the tour?
A. Yes.
When asked at what time Dr. Forecast joined the tour Dr. Finkelstein did not remember it exactly, and said it was after Bangkok and probably before Singapore, but to him it didn’t really matter, and at that time it really sounded like it was not that important:
Q. Was he on the tour with you in Bangkok?
A. He joined after Bangkok or — it would have been — it was either — it might have been — the next stop was Singapore. Again, does it really matter whether it was Singapore or Bangkok?
Q. Fair enough.
A. But it was right afterwards.
Q. Ok, We’ll go back to him joining. But in Mexico City you saw Dr. Forecast administering the medication to Michael Jackson; correct?
A. Correct.
However now the moment Dr. Forecast joined the tour matters a lot because it was to him that Debbie Rowe gave a box with all Michael’s medical history, notes from Dr. Metzger on how to wean Michael off narcotic drugs and all necessary medication, and he was supposed to go on with the weaning process once he took Michael under his care.
But from what we hear from Dr. Finkelstein and Karen Faye it looks like Dr. Forecast drugged Michael Jackson immediately upon joining the tour as the dramatic scene witnessed by Karen Faye was just before the Singapore concert which was the next stop after Bangkok.
The picture of that scene described by Karen Faye in her first testimony at the AEG trial produces a poweful impression:
Q. Were there any other doctors on the tour?
A. There was another doctor – – Dr. Forecast. I don’t know where he came from.
A. Did you learn that Mr. Jackson was being given various medications in Bangkok?
A. I learned they were administering a balance of medications, strong enough to overcome Michael’s pain, but not strong enough that he couldn’t perform.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Gongaware hanging out with Dr. Finkelstein?
A. Yes. Quite often because they were friendly. They were friends.
Q. Dr. Forecast. Was it your understanding that he was a medical doctor?
A. I just knew he was brought on. He was the insurance doctor.
Q. There was a time on the tour you discovered Michael had been given too many drugs and couldn’t perform. What did you learn?
A. Yes. Michael came into the dressing room. He was stumbling. He had a hard time walking. He actually fell over a potted plant/tree. Dr. Forecast was there. I told him: Michael can’t go on. He has to enter on a toaster. Toasters are very small. You have to curl up and be shot out of it. He could lose an arm. I’m seeing Michael in this state and I said you can’t put him in this position. I feared for his safety. I feared for his life. I told Dr. Forecast: You can’t. You can’t make him go out there like this. I put my arms around Michael and said: You can’t take him. And he said: Yes I can. He put his hands around my neck, backed me against the wall and said: You don’t know what you’re doing. I couldn’t breathe. I almost fainted. I fell to the floor. He grabbed Michael and took him off to the stage.
Q. That was Dr. Forecast.
A. That was Dr. Forecast.
Q. Did that show eventually get cancelled?
A. Yes.
So that was the incredible Dr. Forecast. First he arrogantly discarded Debbie Rowe’s help, then he ruined Michael’s recovery program, and then he pumped him with narcotics and sent him to perform in such a state.
It also sounds incredible but neither of the two doctors on the tour ever discussed between themselves or with Michael the reason for the painkillers they were giving him – well, at least Dr. Finkelstein says that he did not. To be able to properly treat Michael they should have known how and when the problem started, when the surgery was made and what complications it resulted in. This was an easy thing to do as Dr. Metzger was offering them his full help and even provided his and Klein’s telephones.
However Dr. Forecast was evidently so arrogant that he was indisposed to listen to anyone at all and was only worried about “taking the hit for what others had done to MJ”. Dr. Finkelstein never asked any questions either and had only a very general idea of Michael’s problems. Finkelstein says about it:
Q. And was Dr. Forecast on the tour that entire time?
A. Correct.
Q. And were either you or Dr. Forecast administering pain medication to Mr. Jackson the entire time?
A. I know that I administered pain medication one other time when Dr. Forecast was not available. And I know that I saw Dr. Forecast administer medication in Mexico City during the deposition. And Dr. Forecast and I were kind of in communication because he didn’t kind of want to take the hit for what other doctors had done before him.
Q. Ok, and did you have an understanding that Mr. Jackson had previously had a burn injury on his head?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, What is the basis for your understanding that Mr. Jackson had a burn injury on his head?
A. Pepsi-Cola commercial.
Q. And what’s the basis for your understanding that Mr. Jackson started taking pain medication after the burn injury?
A. Maybe conversations with Karen Faye.
Q. And what about conversation with Dr. Metzger?
A. No.
Q. What about Dr. — conversations with the artist?
A. No.
Q. What about Dr. Forecast?
A. No.
Dr. Finkelstein explains their disinterest in the problem by everything around Michael being “secretive”, though the only thing they needed to do was a call to Dr. Metzger and properly ask or at least look into the box provided by Debbie Rowe which contained Dr. Metzger’s notes:
Q. Did Dr. Forecast ever say to you, in effect, that he was — that Michael was secretive about his medical care and what drugs were being administered?
A. Everything was secretive.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. It seems that, you know, never did one doc know — you know, it seems like nobody ever knew the whole story. Everything was compartmentalized, and people were separated and segregated.
Q. Other than the phone call that you testified to in Bangkok with Dr. Metzger, did you ever speak to Dr. Metzger at any other time about Michael Jackson’s medical care?
A. Speak with him, no.
The above statement has one important detail – so Dr. Finkelstein talked to Dr. Metzger on the phone when the tour was in Bangkok, and this makes us realize that Dr. Finkelstein was on the tour before Dr. Forecast’s arrival and was actually the first to give Michael narcotic medications.
So it was Dr. Finkelstein who was the first to ruin all Dr. Metzger’s work? Not that Dr. Forecast was any better as he also drugged Michael as soon as joined the tour, but still – what did Finkelstein do to Michael in the few days before Dr. Forecast’s arrival?
Oh, he did a lot.
DR. FINKELSTEIN
Dr. Finkelstein
The fact that Dr. Finkelstein was the first to ruin everything done by Dr. Metzger and Debbie Rowe to wean Michael off narcotic drugs is perfectly consistent with Karen Faye’s testimony about it. She says that at the beginning of the tour, in Bangkok it was indeed Dr. Finkelstein who was attending to Michael:
Q. At a point in Bangkok, there was a doctor on the Dangerous Tour. What was his name?
A. Dr. Stewart Finkelstein.
Dr. Finkelstein wasn’t Michael’s personal doctor – he was to attend to the crew and the rest of the company, but he treated Michael Jackson when Dr. Forecast was not available, and in Bangkok Forecast was not yet there. Dr. Finkelstein confirmed it in his video deposition that initially he was the only doctor on the tour.
Dr. Finkelstein seems to be in complete oblivion of the fact that it was him who ruined Dr. Metzger’s efforts and sent Michael into the spiral of disaster as he is telling of the events in Bangkok with rare candor:
Q. And under what circumstances did you meet Michael Jackson?
A. I was hired to go on a tour called the “Dangerous” tour in 1993 and was in Bangkok. And Michael Jackson came to perform a concert there. And then after he performed the concert, I was requested to go to the principal’s hotel room.
Q. And when you say “the principal,” who are you —
A. Michael Jackson.
Q. Thank you. And — okay, sir. So who hired you to go on the “Dangerous” tour?
A. I think it was a — I think it was Mama — Mama Promoters was Marcel Avram.
Q. Marcel Avram?
Q. And when Mr. Avram hired you to go on the “Dangerous” tour, what were you hired — what was your role supposed to be?
A. I was supposed to be the physician for the crew.
Q. At the time you were hired, were you supposed to also be the physician for the artist? When I say “artist,” I’m referring to Michael Jackson.
A. No.
Q. And what did the security guard say to you, if you recall?
A. You need go to the principal’s hotel room.
Q. Ok, and did you talk to anyone else about going there other than the — other than that 1 security guard?
A. I don’t recall who summoned me to the room. Someone summoned me to the hotel room.
Q. Ok, back to 1993. Did you go to Mr. Jackson’s room after you were asked by the security guard?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you see?
A. Mr. Jackson.
Q. Ok, and what was Mr. Jackson doing?
A. He was in his hotel room. He appeared to be in pain. And then I was put on the phone with his treating physician in Los Angeles.
Q. And who was that?
A. Allan Mel- — Metzer?
Q. Metzger?
A. Metzger.
Q. And what did Mr. Metzger say?
A. Told me that Michael Jackson had a severe headache and he was in a lot of pain and asked me to administer some pain medications.
Q. And what did you say to Mr. Metzger?
A. “Ok,”
Q. And did Mr. Metzger inform you what pain medications to administer?
A. I have no independent recollection. I know what I did, but I don’t know —
Q. If he said it?
A. Yeah.
Q. And did you administer pain medications to Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you administer?
A. I attempted to give him a shot of Demerol, but his buttocks was so scarred up and abscessed that the needle almost bent. And at that time, I’m thinking we were going to have erratic absorption and that that was not a safe route to administer medication to him because it may accumulate and then all of a sudden dump in his system or not get to him, in which case at that point in time I ran an IV, and I administered some IV pain medication.
Q. And do you recall what IV pain medication you administered?
A. Morphine.
Q. And, sir, I notice from your website, there’s a lot of mention of opioids; am I correct?
A. Correct.
Q. What is an opioid?
A. Opioid can be natural chemicals or synthetic chemicals that occupy pain receptors of the brain. There’s Mu, Kappa, Lambda and orphan receptors. Opioids are medications that are used to treat pain.
Q. Is Demerol an opioid?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is morphine an opioid?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you’re an expert in opioids; correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Ok, And, sir — okay. So at this meeting, when you gave an IV of morphine, what did you do next?
A. Can I clarify —
Q. Please.
A. — the question?
Q. Yeah, please.
A. Because there’s a time period.
Q. Ok,
A. At that time period of time, I wasn’t an expert.
Q. Ok, Fair enough.
A. So that needs to be pointed out.
Q. At the time you administered —
A. In 1993.
Q. Ok,
A. Remember, I was studying.
Oh my God, so this doctor did not even remember what medications Dr. Metzger told him to use and remembers only what he himself decided to give Michael – a shot of Demerol which didn’t work after which he decided to put him on morphine by IV!
And he was not even an expert on addiction but was “only studying”! But if he was only studying then why didn’t he listen properly to what others were telling him?
Q. But you were spending half your time working on addiction medicine, and you were taking CME courses at that time; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Ok, So it’s not like you were administering these drugs without knowing what you were doing?
A. I knew what I was doing.
Q. And you were qualified to administer —
A. And I was qualified to do it. So you were qualified at that time, though, to administer both Demerol and morphine; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you were properly licensed to do so; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And going back, at — so at this — what would you call this? A meeting in his room or a consultation or would you — how would you characterize it?
A. I spent the next 24 hours, approximately 24.4 hours, in his room intermittently administering medication until Mr. Jackson was capable of going on stage and performing the second concert that was — that we were scheduled to do in Bangkok. We did postpone that concert.
Q. Ok, So let’s go to this 24-hour period that you spent in Mr. Jackson’s room. You state you were intermittently administering medication; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And what were the medications you were administering, if there was more than one?
A. It was morphine and IV fluids.
Q. And was Mr. Jackson conscious during this time?
A. Yes.
Q. And was he speaking to you?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he speaking about, if you recall?
A. We were watching Three Stooges and having squirt gun fights and talking about growing up in Encino on Havenhurst. He lived next door to a young woman that I dated in high school.
Q. And at some point in time, did you become confident or believe that Mr. Jackson could go on -continue on in the tour? Is that a bad question? If you don’t understand — if you don’t understand it, tell me.
A. That’s a bad question.
Q. Fair enough. I’m just trying to go through time here. So you’re in the room for 24 hours; right?
A. Approximately.
Q. Approx- — and then I believe you said you were administering the medication until you felt he could —
A. Until he went on stage.
Q. Ok, and did he go on stage as soon as this 24-hour time period ended?
A. Approximately, yeah.
Q. And did you watch him on stage?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he able to perform?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he look okay to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, Now, I think you mentioned something about the show being postponed?
A. Yes.
Q. What show was postponed?
A. The concert, the second concert that was scheduled in Bangkok.
Q. And do you know how long it was postponed?
A. A day or two.
Q. And was it postponed at your recommendation?
A. Yes.
The AEG lawyer questioning Dr. Finkelstein makes the conversation sound as light-hearted as it is only possible, but no matter how they present it what we see is that in contrast to all Dr. Metzger’s recommendations to use non-narcotic painkillers Dr. Finkelstein treated Michael Jackson to a 24 hour drip of Morphine and some fluids thus ruining all the slow and thorough work done by others to wean Michael off drugs prior to the tour.
And how much morphine did this good doctor testifying now for AEG give Michael during those 24 hours I wonder? He says that the initial dose was 7-10 milligrams though generally it is 2-3 milligrams and this was repeated several times during those 24 hours:
Q. Getting back to the time that you treated Mr. Jackson in Bangkok, do you recall what the morphine dosage you administered was?
A. 10 milligrams.
Q. And did you administer repeated 7 10-milligram doses?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall approximately how many over the 24-hour period?
A. No.
Q. Is 10 milligrams a starting — typical starting dose for morphine?
A. No.
Q. What’s the typical starting dose?
A. 2 to 4.
Q. Did you administer because you had observed that Mr. Jackson had a high tolerance for morphine?
A. Yes, for opiates.
Q. For opiates. Did Mr. Jackson say anything to you with regard to his opiate tolerance, or did you determine the dose based purely on your observation of how he reacted to the medication?
A. I based the dose purely on the observation of how he responded to the first injection.
So all that destruction job was done by Dr. Finkelstein solely on the basis of his “observations”? Not after another call to Michael’s doctor, but simply because he “thought” that Michael had an opiate problem?
And what reason for thinking that way did he have? He says that Michael had opiate patches on his body, his buttocks were scarred with injections (which could be even from vitamins, couldn’t they?), and he also allegedly received two ampules of Demerol from someone who allegedly had them for MJ.
And this was enough for this great doctor to conclude that Michael was an opiate addict and on these observations alone he decided to give Michael a 24-hour drip of morphine? And he did not even take the trouble to call Dr. Metzger for a consultation?
I think he knows that he behaved in a totally unprofessional way because now his answers strike us as extremely helpless:
Q. But was Mr. Jackson suffering from anything else other than dehydration?
A. I thought that he — I would have guessed that he — I thought he had an opiate problem.
Q. And when you say a “problem,” do you mean a dependency?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. And did you have an understanding of what opiates Mr. Jackson was dependent on?
A. The way that you asked that question is a tough question for me.
Q. Why don’t you answer what I — you think I was trying to ask you.
A. Michael Jackson had a hundred microgram Duragesic patch on and there were two ampules of Demerol that were sent with another member of the crew intended for Mr. Jackson.
Q. And so why are you telling me that?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Well, did —
A. You asked me why I thought there was a problem. So I have someone that I feel that they’re — have, you know, a lot of — have — that obviously has received a lot of medication in the past, that has a high tolerance to medication. He had high tolerance when I administered the medication. So — and obviously, I was early in my training, but in my training enough that it created a concern for me.
Q. Understood. Ok, so you saw — did you see Mr. Jackson wearing a Demerol patch?
A. It was a Duragesic patch.
Q. And how is that patch related to Demerol?
A. It’s another opiate.
Q. Ok, and so is that patch separate from — you just testified something about 2 milliliters of Demerol or something.
A. Ampules.
Q. Two ampules of Demerol. Ok, How does the two ampules — what were you talking about, the two ampules of Demerol?
A. Two ampules of Demerol.
The ampules he received were allegedly given to him by Karen Faye. I doubt it because Karen was prudent enough to refuse to carry the opiate patches which the tour manager Jim Morey asked her to bring to Bangkok. But even assuming that Dr. Finkelstein is telling the truth how is it possible for a doctor to rely on someone who gives him something without any instruction, and act on this basis alone? All the time knowing that he has the telephone number of the artist’s personal doctor to talk to instead of the make-up artist Karen Faye?
Q. And where did you see the ampules?
A. They were given to me from — by the hair — the makeup artist here.
Q. Was her name Karen Faye?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, so Karen Faye gave you two ampules of Demerol?
A. Correct.
Q. Did she give any instruction to you when she gave you those?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any discussion with Ms. Faye about the ampules of Demerol?
A. Not that I can — I mean, not that I can recall anything about, but I — you know, if she’s giving me two ampules of Demerol, I must have had some sort of discussion, but I don’t recall it.
Q. When she gave you the two ampules of Demerol, was it your understanding that those were for Mr. Jackson?
A. Correct, sir.
Q. Ok, So based on seeing the patch and the two ampules of Demerol were those factors that led you to believe that Mr. Jackson had a dependency on opiates?
A. Yes.
Dr. Finkelstein behaved as a pure enabler who keeps to the formula “the less you know the better you sleep” – he put Michael Jackson on a 24 hour morphine drip without asking any questions and by doing it undermined everything done by others before him!
It never occurred to Finkelstein that Michael could have had all those injections for a legitimate reason after the grave surgery he had. Instead Dr. Finkelstein preferred not to ask questions evidently taking drugs for granted on an artist’s tour and a norm in any star’s bedroom. No wonder that he is known in show business as a “rock doc”.
Dr. Filkenstein clearly lies when he says he “mostly” followed Dr. Metzger’s instructions – Dr. Metzger couldn’t tell him to use morphine and asked him to use non-narcotic analgetics (for example, Toradol), only the good Dr. Finkelstein evidently didn’t have it. A stack of morphine he did have and Toradol he didn’t:
Q. Now, sir, when you were treating Mr. Jackson for this approximate 24-hour period, did you ask him any questions about his opiate usage?
A. Not extensively. It was mostly that — what Dr. Meltzer had told me to do.
Q. And you say “not extensively.” Do you recall any conversation you had with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
And isn’t it incredible that this enabler doctor is Paul Gongaware’s friend and was brought to the tour by Gongaware himself? And now they say that Gongaware didn’t know a thing? So symbolically the one who helped to start Michael’s ruin was actually the one who finished it off too:
Q. Ok, so you mentioned that with Mr. Gongaware is how you got involved in the “Dangerous” tour?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how do you know that?
A. How else would they know me?
Q. So do you believe that Mr. Gongaware suggested you as a doctor to come on the tour?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, and was it Mr. Gongaware who called you to go on the tour, or did somebody else call you?
A. Mr. Gongaware.
Of course Paul Gongaware knew not only of Michael’s problem but of the specific treatment his friend was giving to Michael too – Dr. Finskelstein says they chatted a lot and Michael was one of their subjects. And who else could be a bigger subject for discussion but the artist on whose tour they were both working?
Q. Ok, Well, did you inform Mr. Gongaware of the situation with the artist?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what did you tell Mr. Gongaware in regard to the situation with the artist?
A. I said, “I think we’re going to have a problem.”
Q. And did you elaborate on that?
A. I don’t — I’m going to say yes, but I wouldn’t know exactly what I said or —
Q. Well, did you tell Mr. Gongaware you thought that Mr. Jackson had a dependency on opiates?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did Mr. Gongaware say to you?
A. He said, “Don’t be a Dr. Nick.”
Q. And by a “Dr. Nick,” was he talking about Elvis?
A. Yes, sir.
So it was Gongaware’s friend Dr. Finkelstein who played the key role in ruining MJ’s recovery program and it is almost incredible that the whole story came a full circle and returned to the same people. Now both of them are testifying that they were innocent babies and that it is only Michael who is to blame for everything that happened to him. “He was an adult and knew what he was doing”.
And what about you – Gongaware, Finkelstein and Forecast? Aren’t you adults too and know what you are doing? And why should Michael be responsible for what all of you did to him?
THE BOX
Now the only detail that remains to be clarified is who received the box which Debbie Rowe prepared for the tour. It seems that it was Dr. Finkelstein again because in her first testimony on May 9, 2013 Karen Faye said that Dr. Finkelstein had “received the package” and said that it was good she had never agreed to take it – it contained vial and syringes and if she had taken it “she might not be there” (meaning that she could be detained at the customs).
This is what she said:
Q. Was he friends with Mr. Gongaware?
A: I found out he called Paul Gongaware when I said I wouldn’t carry the packages into Bangkok.
Q. Do you know if Dr. Finkelstein gave any treatments to Michael Jackson during that tour?
A. Yes. I assumed it was his job to take care of Michael.
A. What did he give him?
A. He wouldn’t be specific with me. I initially thought I was being asked to carry patches. But when I met him in the lobby for the first time he said to me: It’s a good thing you weren’t carrying the package I received. It has vials and syringes in it. If you’d carried it, you might not be here.
Now Dr. Finkelstein says he got those 2 ampules of Demerol from Karen Faye, while in reality they most probably came from that box given by Debbie Rowe to Dr. Forecast. Someone in the management must have put Karen’s name there because initially the managers planned to send the box via her. However when Karen refused to take the box Dr. Finkelstein reported it to no other but Gongaware and they arranged the delivery in some other way.
So not only Gongaware knew of the treatment Michael was receiving from his friend Finkelstein on the tour but he himself was among those who arranged the delivery of that box to Bangkok, expecting it to contain narcotics.
However the box contained nothing criminal. The box from Debbie Rowe and Dr. Metzger was meant for weaning Michael off narcotic drugs and had all necessary medications for it, which the doctors on the tour probably never even used.
History repeated itself again.
In 1993 Gongaware and the two doctors assumed that Michael was taking narcotics though his drug-taking had been almost over and was in any case secondary to a severe underlying condition of which they had no idea. And it was their arrogance, ignorance and neglect that sent him into a spiral of addiction.
And in 2009 the AEG and doctor did the same – they also thought him to be an addict to narcotics and while they were fussing over the “addiction to Demerol” he actually didn’t have, he died of simple lack of sleep and the horrid negligence of his personal doctor.
In both cases Michael was the victim of the worst expectations of other people and their own dirty thinking of him.
* * *
The great TeamMichaelJackson has obtained the after-lunch part of Debbie Rowe’s testimony (PLEASE HELP THEM TO BUY MORE!) and it is providing some very interesting details.
While I am retyping some fragments to add to this post please read the transcript:
Vindicating Michael 
“Do you know what he means? Sasaki: “and 3 on the upper lip for contouring” I mean what did he exactly do and when?” – Ela
I have no idea and am not sure I want to know. The way all those medical procedures were discussed at this trial is absolutely disgusting and disgraceful for the medical profession. Any person who is 50 years of age has a certain medical history behind his/her back and if we bring all doctors who treated us for the past 30 years, and they describe every procedure done to us, and what painkiller was used and when, it will make an impressive file which is absolutely unnecessary to know for the whole world around us.
But it wasn’t enough for AEG just to kill Michael by their gross indifference to him – they also decided to humiliate him beyond measure after his death, thus adding one more crime to the one they already committed.
Barbarians.
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Do you know what he means? Sasaki: “and 3 on the upper lip for contouring” I mean what did he exactly do and when?
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wonderful article as always, Thank you Helena.
“Rowe: However, there were occasions that MJ wanted to have it, he had extensive scarring on his nose that made it difficult to breathe.”
the things is if they were “ON” his nose I mean on the skin, they would not have affected his breathing!!! I guess Debbie actually meant “IN” the nose. And so this was caused by Lupus I guess! am I right?
here is a piece of info from wikipedia:
“Dr. Richard Strick, who examined Jackson in 1993 on behalf of the prosecution and reviewed his complete medical records, rebutted rumors regarding Jackson’s physical appearance. In an interview with Fox News, he stated that Jackson’s problems with his skin and his nose were all caused by vitiligo and lupus. Discoid lupus “had destroyed part of the skin of his nose” and his nasal surgeries “all were really reconstructive” to try to “look normal”. Strick added that the first surgery was to “reconstruct from some scar tissue and obstruction that had happened with the skin there”. That “didn’t work out very well and all subsequent attempts were to make it right”.
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@Helena Thanks for the response. These clarifications indeed brought out some light. It’s very sad that even after his death, they are still very desperate to condemn the man. All for money’s sake. 😦
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Myuu, lies always make people sad – even when they can’t place the lie they still feel it. There is no post here about Pellicano yet but I’ve spoken about that article so often in the comments that will just provide you will links to them and their text (not to repeat myself).
Comment 1:
Comment 2:
Comment 3:
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This might be quite off the subject but since I don’t know how to contact you personally other than leaving a comment, I hope you would bear with me. I just want to ask if there was any truth about this article I found. I kinda doubt it since Pellicano defended MJ for years then this came up.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2023974/Anthony-Pellicano-claims-Michael-Jackson-did-far-worse-molest-young-boys.html
I hope there will be some light about this matter. Reading these kind of articles makes me so sad. 😦
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Hey Dial,
I just had a thought when you mentioned the showering thing.
Not only did they all fail to notice or mention his surgeries or medical issues in their statements, as you highlight, but the fact he was undergoing such massive surgical procedures and issues would, I think, have made it difficult for him to shower anyway.
Especially in the nature they were all insinuating.
I mean obviously he bathed himself in some way, but major surgeries and irritable wounds like that require very careful cleansing and treatment. I had a two big operations many years ago on my face and scalp and was instructed not to overly wet the area for a long time afterwards. Especially not inflame it with soap or shampoo. Even when I was finally allowed to wash it properly, I didn’t want to because I was terrified of somehow injuring it. It took me many, many months to get up the courage to even wash that part of my face. I wouldn’t even sleep on that side of my head for about a year, and I couldn’t go to the hairdressers because they would wash my hair too vigorously. The entire area felt foreign and numb to me, still does, and even though it has pretty much healed to this day (I had an absolutely wonderful surgeon and I’m not disfigured in any way haha), I still treat the area with incredible sensitivity and caution because too much ‘activity’ can still cause an inflammation or swelling. I didn’t suffer burns or lupus or keloids or vitiligo, though, so I know my circumstances are different to Michael’s in that respect but I just wanted to offer it as an example of how ridiculous the idea is that Michael would want to or be able to shower with such ease during his medical issues and intense surgeries with children, let alone start molesting them. Showering in itself (or our general interpretation of it) may have either not been an option for him at all, or could have been too terrifying for him for fear of how the water would affect or make his wounds feel. Even being in the bath would have required great care – and splashing about with children is hardly an example of that.
Again, just my interpretative suggestion based on my own experiences.
Definitely not something that would stand up in court! Haha 🙂
-alice
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Helena,
Thank you for still being here. Sometimes all it takes is one sentence to help shine the light.
When you wrote about JC being a liar who failed to see and report any of this it got me to thinking and talking to a friend.
The people who claimed to have witnessed MJ in shower, but saw none of the evidence of his surgeries and medication. Liars.
People who claimed they were intimate, but did not see this nor make it a part of their statements. Liars.
People who created or wrote these made up accounts, but failed to get real details. The kind of details which would have been so very noticeable. Liars.
This plus WR’s ever changing story which would cover this period; the fact he told the world that no one knew until 2012, but later says his father killed himself over this made up molestation in 2002. This should be enough to kill all the law suits dead. Liar.
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Start @ 22:40
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“Sadly, it appears that the links to the videos on Damien’s website have been removed. :-(” ladypurr9
If the powers that be make “CARICATURES” of Michael (look at the “This is It” album cover & the “Michael” album cover) -then that is ok. But give the REAL Michael, THEN it is DELETED. Heaven forbid that Michael be humanized.
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“I would go to Europe every other week to see Prince. We were making Paris”
– Debbie Rowe
Sign. Debbie, Debbie, Debbie. I wish I could have been you for those magnificent 3 years.
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Once again thank you Helena for the enormous amount of time you have dedicated sorting through the daily transcripts.
At the beginning of this post you wrote;
“Indeed it is a tide of emotions and all of us feel that the whole matter has become much bigger than simply the AEG trial”.
Like you and many others I am at a loss to describe how this trial is making me feel and I am deeply saddened hearing about the suffering Michael had to endure on a daily basis, I had no idea. I often wonder how Katherine is coping, sat in the courtroom every day having to listen to all that Michael had gone through in his life, I’m not sure even she really knew . It has certainly added to the overall sadness I’ve felt since June 2009 and I am not even a close relative, my heart breaks for her.
Helena, your clear analysis has helped to bridge the gap between transcripts published on the TeamMJ site and the daily tweets that are filtering through and for that I am truly grateful for. Like Alice has said, I wish the jury could read your work as it would help them greatly in understanding this long and complex case.
If I had one wish, it would be that when the trial is over, the real truth about Michael would finally be told and that all the horrendous and hideous stories are put to rest once and for all, but I know that would be to much to ask for and fictional stories will continue forevermore.
At least there are people like yourself that will continue the fight to clear Michael’s name and continue his legacy as it so rightly deserves, he would have been very humbled I’m sure.
With love.
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I just found this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donna-rockwell-psyd/mindfulness-in-everyday-l_b_3768846.html
It’s another very biased evaluation of a psychologist who never met MJ. I suggest everyone to leave comments.
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Thank you so much for this post, Helena. You express exactly what I feel about all these doctors.
Regarding your question: I agree with the others. To me it’s not necessary to have a post of all the ABC tweets as I usually read them directly. I’m also much more interested in your analysis of the important testimonies. I so much admire your good and quick grasp and how you are capable of seeing so many details and bring them in context to each other and verbalize it as a summary.
It’s necessary to read the whole transcripts anyway, and it doesn’t matter if it takes some time to analyse them to make a post.
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Sadly, it appears that the links to the videos on Damien’s website have been removed. 😦
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@rebeljenne. You remind me of the words used in psychology to describe the mindset of bigots – It says “don’t bother me with facts – my mind is already made up”. Pity……
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Hi Helena- Thanks so much for this labour of love. Your analysis is very insightful especially because of your incredibe knowledge, and your ability to cross reference information, dissect the issues, and expose lies, inconsistencies, and the nuances which many of us may not immediately observe.
Each time I read your work, I think- how can we get this priceless info out to more people. I am particularly distressed in relation to Debbie’s testimony because there is so much in it that can counteract the reprehensible damage done to MJ’s reputation by the media. The Estate has the resources to do something with all these facts and I hope they will. The systematic campaign to destroy MJ must be conteracted by an equally systematic and coordinated campaign to restore his reputation whatever the cost.
For me a concise analysis of the main points is most beneficial. I can send that to people who are not prepared to read a long report, but who have some kind of influence and can help spread the message once we can get them committed by exposing the facts.
Perhaps at the end of this trial, we can create a concise and easily referenced summary of some kind which we can all use. This could serve as a point by point rebuttal of some of the lies still being spread – but using this new information.
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“Their marriage was not fake. It happened. They got married. Ergo, the marriage existed. Whether or not they were in a sexual relationship is irrelevant to the legitimacy of the marriage itself.” – Alice
By the way if previously someone could have doubts about MJ’s marriage to Debbie now it becomes clear that it was absolutely real. In fact one of the best types of marriages is built on a friendship, common interests, compensation of each other’s deficiencies and the ability to laugh together. And Debbie’s character and good sense of humor made her a very good partner for MJ. Their marriage didn’t last very long but it was real.
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“They are, however, relevant to the financial outcome of the trial for Katherine and the children.” – Alice
Hi Alice. Yes, this I understand, but have to admit that this matter interests me least of all. I’m not much “into it” as Michael said. My understanding of this case is that AEG does not even have enough money to be able to compensate for the loss the world sustained, so whatever sum they pay it will still be inadequate.
I am much more interested in restoring the truth about Michael. And in this connection the state of his finances is also a very interesting subject to research. Ackerman said that his debt initially arose from the need to pay damages for cancellation of the Dangerous tour. MJ took a loan to repay the debt to Marcel Avram and every year the interest accrued. And due to the huge damage to his reputation done by Chandler’s allegations he lost most of his “endorsement” attraction which is unfortunately true, so his earning power did decrease very much. This is why I said that every million copies sold after 1993 was worth ten million sold before it due to the huge resistance Michael had to overcome.
Michael tried very hard to fight the circumstances and continued working on the albums and making tours. But the resistance was too big – he was practically confronted by a worldwide boycott which was instigated by the media which saw to it that no good news was ever reported about Michael and that his image was only tarnished more and more.
Over here I have no illusions – it was an orchestrated effort and was done on purpose. Someone wanted to bring Michael down very much indeed and did their utmost for it to happen. The media conglomerates for sure took part, no doubt about it.
So considering the world powers Michael had to fight all alone his result
was not that badwas fantastic – they wanted to break him, but he still stood up to all those circumstances, and was still fighting in his own gentle way, was raising his children, working on his music, was perfectly able to perform and did not turn into a good-for-nothing “junkie” as they expected he would.Even the financial results were not that bad as he still retained all his assets though everyone thought that he was already finished. The only real damage he sustained was complete loss of sleep due to all the stress he had to live in. And the stress was inflicted by almost everyone around.
This is why I see this case as not only AEG’s responsibility – no, it is much bigger than that. Everyone took part in it with AEG only putting the final touch.
And if we return to the Dangerous tour and the financial disaster it brought on Michael, aren’t all those doctors ultimately responsible for the tour cancellation? Especially the last two of them – Dr. Forecast (sent by the insurance company!) and Dr. Finkelstein, who is the best friend of our good AEG guy Gongaware? They neglected their responsibilities, under their care he was progressively deteriorating and getting unable to perform and this is why the cancellation took place.
Just only think of it – if the doctors had not decided to do all that surgery on his head he would have been able to successfully complete the tour and would not have had to pay the damages. The Chandlers’ case would still be there of course, but Michael would have been much stronger and probably would have even insisted on taking the case to court. And knowing how much Chandlers abhorred the idea of it they could have perfectly dropped the case. Or the extortion could have been proven.
In short history would have been totally different for Michael if it hadn’t been for those doctors’ decisions. Medicine let Michael down in a really big way.
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And here are the ABC tweets for Friday last week. Dr. Green is AEG’s expert summoned to refute the testimony of Dr. Matheson, an expert in sports medicine and conflict of interests:
Friday August 16, 2013 DAY 71
Dr. Gary Green, AEG’s expert, sports medicine expert, is the next witness. Attorneys told the judge he’s expected to last all day.
Dr. Green will opine on conflict of interest. He’s called to counter Dr. Gordon Matheson testimony earlier in the trial.
We’ll bring you the complete coverage of his testimony as soon as we can. Remember, judge does not allow live tweets.
The Harley ride where Debbie Rowe told Michael Jackson he was going to be a dad. pic.twitter.com/3IVWr4TLRf
Wedding day of Debbie Rowe and MJ. Dr. Metzger was the best man. pic.twitter.com/NUmq0x4gf3
Michael Jackson, Debbie Rowe and baby Prince. pic.twitter.com/wlKsrmGDjy
Debbie Rowe and Prince. pic.twitter.com/zBLa0ZySSM
Debbie Rowe and Prince. pic.twitter.com/WYAOHjePC4
Michael Jackson, Debbie Rowe, Prince and baby Paris. pic.twitter.com/koxA1CDj9D
Day 71 ofJackson family vs AEG trial — Week 16, is under way. We’re on lunch break now.
After jury entered the room, plaintiffs attorney Brian Panish announced he has rested their case in chief, subject to conclusion with Ortega
AEG called their next expert witness, Dr. Gary Green. Attorney Jessica Stebbins Bina is doing direct examination.
Dr. Green is a doctor board certified in internal medicine and sports medicine.
He’s currently the head team physician for Pepperdine University and is the medical director performance enhancement drugs for MLB.
He oversees medical care of athletes both in minor and major leagues of baseball, also sees general students at Pepperdine, not just athetes
The doctor conducts research on behalf of MLB at UCLA pathology department regarding enhancement drug use.
He’s also a clinical professor at UCLA and a partner at primary care group, sees general patients as well.
Dr. Green is the team physician for the US Soccer team and Pepperdine, worked in Olympic Games of 2002, MLB, NCAA, was UCLA team physician.
Dr Green said sports medicine is somewhat like regular medicine. “Doctors should do no harm; doctors should do what’s best for the patient”
He said he always wanted to be a family doctor and treat patients for all their lives.
Dr. Green said before athletes know what medical problem they have, they want to know when they can play next.
Dr. Green said he has similar or greater experience that Dr. Gordon Matheson, since Dr. Matheson doesn’t have private practice.
Dr. Matheson testified earlier in the trial on behalf of plaintiffs.
Dr. Green worked with O’Melveny & Myers before in a case involving Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
The expert said he was surprised being called in this case, since it has nothing to do with athletes.
Dr. Green reviewed extensive material, deposition and trial testimony in this case.
The doctor said he spent about 115 hours in this case, bills $500 per hour. He said he’s billed approximately $20,000 to $25,000 up-to-date
There will be about $25,000 to $30,000 to be billed, total approximately $50,000.
Bina asked if he agrees with Dr. Matheson this is a conflict of interest case. “I disagree with Dr. Matheson completely,” Dr. Green said.
Dr. Green’s opinion:
1- Sports medicine is the wrong analogy
2- Facts don’t support conflict of interest alleged by Dr. Matheson
3- Conflict of interest alleged did not lead to poor medical care
4- Dr. Matheson disregarded key principles to reach his conclusions
Dr. Green said this case is much closer to regular doctor-patient medicine than sports medicine.
Doctors have ethical obligation to do no harm to the patient, he said. “There’s conflict of interest on a daily basis between doc/patient”
Dr. Green said through experience doctors learn very quickly how to manage conflicts and have the patient’s best interest first.
1- Sports Medicine is the Wrong Analogy
A: Who selects doctor?
This Case: Patient
Primary Care Practice: Patient
Team Sports: Team/School
Dr. Green said in team sports, the team or school chooses the doctor. In primary care practice and in this case, MJ chose the doctor.
In my private practice, I’m selected by the patient. Dr. Green said. “They choose whether they want to come see me or not.”
Dr. Green: MJ brought Dr. Murray to the attention of AEG Live and MJ insisted to bring the doctor on tour.
At one point, AEG explored other options and MJ wanted his physician, Dr. Green testified.
The expert said there’s no evidence Dr. Murray has been asked to treat anyone else but MJ and perhaps the children.
Doc said in team sports player, coach, team, public have the right to information from doctor. In private practice/this case only patient.
Dr. Murray was not allowed to share any information wit AEG Live or anyone else, the doctor testified. There’s no release form to share info
Dr Green said plaintiffs hired Dr Matheson to say that this was a sports medicine analogy. “It’s just not the correct analysis in this case”
Dr. Green said one of the articles Dr. Matheson used is entitled “The Unique Aspects of Sports Medicine,” and this is not the same.
Dr. Green explained the Jackson family claim there was conflict between AEG and Murray to influence the type of medical care used with MJ.
Dr. Green explained that in order for conflict of interest to exist, each party had to have different interests.
MJ wanted to remain healthy to do the tour, he said.
Dr. Murray wanted MJ to be healthy, it’s his ethical obligation and he wanted him to complete the tour, he said.
AEG Live needed a healthy MJ to be in good health, this was a long tour, he expressed.
Dr. Green: No, I do not.
Bina: If there were no tour, do you have any reason to believe Dr. Murray would be paid $150,000 a month?
It was Dr. Murray’s interest to keep MJ healthy to have him perform the shows, Dr. Green opined.
2- Facts Don’t Support Alleged Conflicts
– Health interests of MJ, Dr. Murray and AEG Live were aligned
– No secret arrangement – Jackson requested Dr. Murray – Dr. Murray demonstrated independence from AEG Live
* Advised MJ not to go to rehearsal * Told tour personnel to “stay in their lane”
* Refused to provide medical records to insurers * Requested contract changes to increase independence
– Evidence does not support claim that AEG Live directed medical care – Timing of contract drafts doesn’t support Matheson’s claims
There’s no secret arrangement, Dr. Green said. “In this situation, everything was out in the open.”
Dr. Green: It was to be signed by Dr. Murray, MJ and AEG Live. There was nothing hidden.
Dr. Green: Dr. Murray knew AEG Live would be advancing the money on behalf of MJ, MJ knew AEG would advance the money.
That was selected by Michael Jackson, Dr. Green opined. “There was no secrecy, he requested Dr. Murray to go on tour.”
If there was any secrecy was between Murray and MJ, Dr. Green opined. “There’s no evidence AEG was aware Murray was giving MJ Propofol.”
AEG was not controlling Dr. Murray, Dr. Green said. “He acted independently from AEG.”
If Dr. Murray were taking orders from AEG Live, he’d not have told people to stay in their lane, Dr. Green opined.
Dr. Green said Dr. Murray refused to provide his own medical records of MJ to insurers. MJ denied releasing the medical history.
The expert said Dr. Murray requested Kathy Jorrie to change the contract to have more independence.
He asked to keep money for the entire money should he be discharged mid-month, Dr. Green testified.
Dr. Green pointed out Dr. Murray asked to change the contract to limit him to perform services requested by artist, not producer.
I believe that it further demonstrates Dr. Murray’s independence from AEG Live.
Dr. Green said that it’s not unusual for family/friends to call him to talk about a patient he’s about to see.
He said family/friends may tell him things that the patient wouldn’t.
The expert said that in all the meetings, there were several people present, which supports the fact there was no secrecy.
First draft of the contract was June 16. “Dr. Murray’s behavior in this case and care to MJ began way before that,” Dr. Green explained.
If Dr. Matheson is correct and terms of contract influenced Murray’s behavior, he started treating him way before contract draft he said
There’s no evidence of Michael Jackson use of Propofol to AEG, Dr. Green opined.
Timeline per Dr. Green:
2006 — Dr Murray begins treating Jackson family
January 2009 — Dr. Murray treated Prince and Michael in LA
Dr. Green: MJ had a physical in 2009 with Dr. Slavit. He asked who was his personal physician and MJ said Dr. Murray.
Kai Chase testified Dr. Murray was frequently at Carolwood house in April, May and June 2009.
On April 6, 2009, Dr. Murray ordered Propofol to be shipped to LA, the expert said.
Dr. Green pointed out that all of that happened before AEG Live had any knowledge of Dr. Murray.
Dr. Green: I think it’s very clear the relationship of Murray-MJ pre-date AEG being involved. Furthermore, his use of Propofol pre-dates AEG
Dr. Murray re-ordered Propofol on April 28, 2009, Dr. Green said.
Not only do I disagree with Dr. Matheson’s conclusion but the manner of which he came to his conclusion, Dr. Green said.
Patients and competent adults have the right to choose their own physician, Dr. Green testified.
In this case, MJ chose Dr. Murray as his own physician and wanted him to go on tour, Dr. Green opined.
Dr. Green: AEG Live looked at other possibilities and in response MJ, a competent adult, said no, I want my own doctor.
Continuity of care is a very important principle, Dr. Green explain. That way the doctor knows the history of the patient.
Dr. Green said Dr. Matheson wanted AEG to go around MJ and find another physician for him.
Dr. Green: Physician’s duty to the patient is paramount, and that’s the number one priority and what doctors should always be concerned.
Physicians are under the obligation, regarding any interest, to put their patients first, Dr. Green expressed.
Dr. Green said Dr. Murray disregarded the Hippocratic oath, standard of care and probably violated prescribing rules.
Judge broke session for lunch. Trial to resume within 30 minutes. Stay tuned!
Jacksons’ attorney William Bloss did cross examination.
Bloss: Would you agree large incentives can create conflict of interest?
Dr. Green: Yes, financial incentive can create conflict of interest
Regardless financial incentive, it does not take away from physician’s obligation to the patient, Dr. Green explained.
Bloss showed opinion of “Financial Incentives and the Practice of Medicine.”
Code of Ethics of American Medical Association.
a) Large incentives may create conflict of interest that can in turn compromise clinical objectivity.
AMA says: “It’s important to recognize that sufficient large incentives can create an untenable position for physicians.”
Financial rewards do not obligate physicians to compromise their medical judgment, Dr. Green opined.
Bloss: Is $150,000 a month a large incentive?
Dr. Green: It depends on the situation.
Bloss asked how about a doctor whose house is about to go on foreclosure, $600,000 in outstanding debt, behind child support payment?
I’m sure many doctors have great deal of debt, possibly more than that, and still practice medicine in an ethical manner, Dr Green said
Bloss showed Kai Chase’s testimony, where she said she didn’t see Dr. Murray as much in April, was there about 3 times a week.
Dr. Green said he was not accurate when he mentioned Chase said Dr. Murray was at Carolwood in March of 2009.
Dr. Green said on April 19, 2009, Dr. Metzger went to Carolwood to meet MJ. He said MJ asked for sleep medication.
Bloss: Do you recall MJ asked Cherilyn Lee to give him sleep aid?
I don’t recall dates, need to see the testimony.
Bloss: If a nurse says there were no equipments at the house for Murray to inject MJ with Propofol on Apr19 is that inconsistent?
Dr. Green: No.
Bloss: Do you have information MJ was seeking Propofol from people other than Dr. Murray?
Dr. Green: Yes, Dr. Metzger and Cherilyn Lee.
On Apr 19, MJ asked Cherilyn Lee to find someone to give him Propofol, Bloss said. He asked if it’d be consistent with Murray there same day
Dr. Green: We see addicts and they go to multiple sources, I could only speculate why MJ was seeking Propofol from more than one person.
It’s not inconsistent somebody seeking drugs from several sources Dr Green said. “Particularly with that drug which wasn’t easy to obtain”
Bloss: Was Dr. Murray giving MJ Propofol on April 19th and 12th at Carolwood?
Dr. Green: Yes
Dr. Green said he cannot testify to the exact date because Dr. Murray kept no records to maintain it secretive.
Dr. Green charges AEG $3,000 per half day of work, $6,000 for full day.
Bloss showed email from Ortega to Gongaware on Jun 14, 2009 saying “Are you aware MJ’s doctor didn’t permit him to attend rehearsals today?”
This just shows Dr. Murray independence to advise MJ not to attend rehearsal, Dr. Green said.
Email from Gongaware: “We want to remind him that it’s AEG, not MJ, who is paying his salary.”
Dr. Green said the best person to ask about this email is who wrote it/received it. Since he’s neither, it’d speculation to interpret it.
I believe Mr. Gongaware didn’t recall this email, Dr. Green said. “Mr. Ortega said he didn’t understand what it meant.”
Bloss: Is this email material to your opinion?
Dr. Green: Yes, I feel that it supports my opinion.
Bloss: Even the part that says “AEG, not MJ, paying his salary?”
Dr. Green: Yes.
Dr. Green said in his deposition that nothing in the email supported his opinion. He said he testified differently at deposition.
Bloss asked in deposition whether “AEG, not MJ, paying his salary” email did not influence his opinion, correct? “Yes,” Dr. Green responded.
Dr. Green: Now that I responded differently is because I had additional information.
Dr. Green: One is Mr. Gongaware’s testimony, and further reviewed evidence this was never communicated to Dr. Murray.
The fact that it was never communicated to Dr. Murray let me believe it was not influencing, Dr. Green explained.
Dr. Green said he doesn’t believe either Gongaware or anyone else at AEG told Dr. Murray “it’s AEG, not MJ, who’s paying his salary.”
You need to look at the context of this email, you can’t just pull out a word here or there, Dr. Green said.
Bloss asked if “we want him to understand what’s expected of him” mention in the email influenced his opinion.
No, it would not sway my opinion one way or the other, Dr. Green said.
Dr. Green said he did not ask to meet with Gongaware or Phillips to try to get more information about the email and their intent.
Bloss asked about the meeting at Carolwood’s house on June 16, 2009, which they called “intervention.”
He asked if Chase said Dr. Murray bursted out of the meeting and said “I can’t take this s**t anymore.”
I read the testimony of of Ms. Chase and that was her perception, Dr. Green said.
Mr. Gongaware had a much different account of the meeting than what Chase testified, Bloss said.
Dr. Green said Chase wasn’t present for the entire meeting, but Gongaware was.
He would give a little more weight to Gongaware since he was present for the full meeting.
Assuming that Chase’s recollection is correct, I think there are many interpretations of Dr. Murray’s outburst, Dr. Green said.
Bloss asked if it could be that Dr. Murray was feeling pressured by AEG.
Dr. Green: It could be that Dr. Murray could be feeling pressured he was giving unethical and illegal drugs.
That certainly could create pressure in Dr. Murray to make an outburst like that, Dr. Green said.
There was nothing to suggest in the meeting that Dr. Murray was in danger of losing the gig. Dr. Green said.
Dr. Green didn’t receive the “Trouble at the Front” email chain until after he was involved in the case.
Bloss showed Bugzee’s email saying MJ was basket case. “Only information that MJ was not in good health on June 19,” Dr Green said about it
Dr. Murray wasn’t keeping records at this time, but I believe MJ was under his care, Dr. Green said.
Bloss showed the email where Ortega said “now that we brought the doctor in to the fold.”
Dr. Green said this email showed Ortega was concerned with MJ’s health. He doesn’t know what the director meant by “doctor in to the fold.”
Bloss: Because you didn’t understand what this meant, this email didn’t influence you, correct?
I think you have to put this entire thing in context and the context is that he was concerned with Mr. Jackson’s health Dr Green explained
Dr. Green said several people raised questions about MJ’s psychological situation.
Dr. Green said he believes Dr. Murray was board certified but it had lapsed in 2008. Murray does not have psychiatry training.
Bloss talked about the lengthy conversation Randy Phillips with Dr. Murray. He asked if he knew for sure what they talked about. He said no
Bloss asked about another Phillips’ email. Panish laughed out loud when Dr. Green responded he recalls testimony but preferred reading again
Judge called Panish out, he apologized. Judge ordered all the attorneys in her chambers for quick sidebar.
Dr. Green: Apologies accepted
Panish: Your honor, I’d like to apologize to Dr. Green for that laugh.
Back in the courtroom in front of jury:
Panish: I’m sincerely sorry
Dr. Green: No harm, no foul
Bloss talked about “this doctor is extremely successful, we checked him out.”
Dr. Green said he thought Phillips meant that based on Kathy Jorrie’s testimony regarding the check she did.
I do not see anything to change my opinion of conflict of interest in this case, Dr. Green said.
Bloss showed another part of the “Trouble at the Front” email with Phillips saying “Tim and I are going to see him tomorrow.”
Bloss asked if that statement was material to his opinion.
Only that AEG was concerned about what was going on and were doing something about it, Dr. Green said.
Dr. Green said he considered all the evidence in the case, since everything is important.
Dr. Green sad he’s not sure what Phillips meant when he asked “is it chemical or physiological.” “I can only speculate.”
Dr Green said he was asked to analyze if this is a sports medicine case and whether or not conflict of interest led to his poor medical care
Judge adjourned trial. Attorneys ordered back at 10:45 am PT on Monday, jurors at 1:30 pm PT. Dr. Green returns then.
We hope to see you on Monday for full coverage of the trial. Have a safe and great weekend everyone!
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Hey Helena!
I hope you are well. Regarding your question, and this is just my own personal preference, I feel your time and skills are much better directed towards careful analysis such as this post rather than coverage of the abc tweets. Drawing out inaccuracies, highlighting lies/truths and correlating testimony with known timelines is invaluable. Perhaps if you just included the link to the abcourt twitter page at the top of each post for everyone to follow, then that may be enough direction? Predicting that of their 35.8thousand followers TeamMJ will still be giving enough funding until the end of the trial, the transcripts are really what I am following religiously at this late stage. However, the abcourt tweets and TeamMJ tweets are also valuable in their own way, of course. They give us quicker insights and a general idea of what is happening on a real-time basis. They also give us tidbits like Debbie hugging Katherine at the end of her testimony – something not included in the transcripts but nice to hear nonetheless. However, I prefer to follow the tweets purely during the actual day of testimony but do not rely on them solely for forming my opinion until I first read the transcripts, then read your posts and reflect upon both in light of each other. At this late a stage in the trial, I think your talents and mind are best spent on analysis. This is just my general view, though. I’m sure others may still like the media coverage included.
Some of the latest ‘expert’ testimonies you mentioned I’ve personally found interesting to read purely for insight on the way the AEG attorneys are trying to manhandle the case and fudge figures around smothering the value or relevance of Michael’s assets and only dealing with predicted ‘support’ payments owing to Katherine and the children in Michael’s absence, and the growing awareness the judge displayed particularly in Ackerman’s testimony of this. I found her awareness of this encouraging, though it wasn’t until Panish began his cross-examination that a sidebar was allowed to fully explore this and she consequently made quite a few rulings to sustain lines of questioning and leading of Ackerman as a witness by AEG in the re-direct.
So just using this as one example, I have found the ‘expert’ testimonies enlightening for a variety of reasons but, as you indicate, they are not as overtly relevant to your immediate case at hand of vindicating Michael – say, as a testimony such as Debbie’s clearly is.
They are, however, relevant to the financial outcome of the trial for Katherine and the children. I feel they are also incredibly relevant in the court determining which areas of Michael’s finances she will allow to be considered in evidence and, consequently, how much we will learn in terms of Michael’s financial worth.
A thought on this: So we remember that AEG bought Briggs in with, Panish explains, full knowledge that he had previously been involved in valuing the catalogues. They know this is a conflict of interest, and yet they still brought him in. And so Panish objected to it because he wanted the entire testimony stricken. However, by raising it as a conflict of interest to discredit Briggs and the judge’s reserve on striking it have meant the whole issue of getting into the value of the estate at all has been muddied by AEG’s decision to bring Briggs in in the first place. Which makes it very difficult for Panish to get into the area of discussion in his attempts to now discredit much of Ackerman’s work because he has not included asset value into his predictions of support payments. So, as Briggs is the only one to have testified so far to having involvement in its valuation, his skewed numbers and false testimony are what other AEG experts are using to influence in their own testimonies (which they cannot specify because of how controversial Briggs’ testimony on it became) and which AEG want the jury to remember as somehow a valid indicator of its worth because it was ‘revealed’ he was involved in valuing it. This all, I feel, will influence the amount – if any – the jury could possibly determine to award Katherine and the kids.
There are also some interesting discrepancies between the concepts of ‘spending’ and ‘consumption’ that are being confused by Ackerman & AEG. Discussions on jury instruction and improper inclusion of subjects and questions by AEG have also been highlighted by Panish, too.
Also, Ackerman specifies that both catalog’s royalties were all going towards paying off the debt of other loans and house repayments. But this does not somehow excuse their worth. However, the issues I highlighted above may be factoring into why he will not testify or include their worth into his predictions – because AEG told him not to. And if AEG told him not to, it stands to reason that we must question why they were certain there would be no need for this. Is it because they knew a way around making sure the value could not be disclosed or discussed at all? By introducing a conflict of interest from a party involved in its valuation? Is it too late for Panish to bring in someone else to introduce a true valuation?
I also had a few issues with why so many of Ackerman’s projected numbers for support due to Katherine and the children after Michael’s actually took 2009 costings, rather than inflating them to 2013 and beyond costings. Some were inflated, others weren’t. He was fairly clear about which ones were inflated and which weren’t, but he was not clear and nor was he asked WHY some weren’t inflated; specifically the education costs for Paris and Blanket if they are to go to college in following years. His predicted costs for that were still done on a 2009 economy base. Not the actual years that they will go to college. So there are some discrepancies I am struggling with at a finer detail level.
As to the other two ‘experts’ though, like Green and that other doctor, I found them to be particularly redundant and just full of the same usual b*llsh*t and lies. If you were bored and wanted a laugh you could easily post a hilarious analysis of their joke of a testimony. I’m sure it would be quite easy to pull holes in the insurance doctor’s testimony, too – his description sounds like little more than a 10 minute Q&A with Michael and hardly the five hours rigorous physical examination that Phillips, Gongaware, et al were having the public believe before Michael’s death.
Thanks again for your wonderful work Helena, and thanks also for formatting a lot of my posts where I am unable to 🙂 I really appreciate it.
-alice
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Here are the ABC tweets for the second day of Debbie Rowe’s testimony on Thursday last week (the first day is in the body of this post). She was followed by the insurance doctor Dr. Slavit, the one who did Michael’s physical in February 2009:
Thursday August 15 DAY 70
Debbie Rowe was back on the stand. Jacksons attorney Deborah Chang resumed cross examination.
Chang asked if traffic was better today. “It’s Palmdale… it was actually worse today,” Rowe responded.
Rowe said you couldn’t look at it and say it was lupus. Then Chang showed picture of black male with vitiligo.
The thing with vitiligo, the color can come and go and if you go on the sun you can get sunburn, Rowe explained.
For Michael, it came and went for a good period of the time. It was easy to cover with make-up, Rowe testified.
Everybody said he bleached himself, but he didn’t, Rowe said.
Rowe: It’s easier go lighter color and try to match with make-up. It’s hard to match dark skin, they don’t make good make-up for dark skin.
Rowe said Michael had come to a point it (vitiligo) was going to stay, it wasn’t going to get any better.
Each time the pigment disappearead, it got bigger and bigger. She said that cause tremendous anxiety in Michael.
Rowe said up until 99 MJ still had issues with it. “Vitiligo is seasonal, it’d come and go. Sometimes it’d be better and sometimes it wouldn’t
Rowe said Dr. Klein tried different treatments, ultimately tried to de-pigment.
You can’t just slap cream around whenever you want, you need to get your skin checked, Rowe said. That’s one of the reasons MJ saw Klein.
Michael’s burn was very serious, Rowe explained.
Rowe: I didn’t want him to feel as hopeless as he felt. We may not be able to make it perfect, but lets see what we can do.
He was very shy, so for him to have all of these going on and being in public it was very hard, Rowe testified.
Rowe said MJ cried about it, was embarrassed and felt disfigured. He was worried that people would see disfigurement before he would.
He didn’t really trust anyone at all, Rowe explained.
Chang asked if there was a comparison to elephant man. She said yes.
Rowe said Michael didn’t disclose it to his mother. He wanted her to know that he was okay and that she didn’t have to worry about him.
Chang: Did you always make him laugh?
Rowe: Well, that was our relationship.
Rowe said Michael had a really good sense of humor and they tried to find humor in stuff.
And if he was feeling down I’d do something to take his mind off of it, Rowe said. “I apparently have no filter, as my daughter says.”
Chang: Did he appreciate that on you?
Rowe: He did, I think he felt refreshed. Because he couldn’t do it, he was happy I could.
Rowe: He knew I’d look after him, I wanted him to see the best physician, would find people who would take care of him.
Rowe said she told MJ he needed to be organized with his medication, get one of those morning, afternoon, evening pill organizer.
Rowe went with Michael to see other physicians. Dr Metzger is an internist and rheumatologist who treats auto-immune diseases, such as lupus
Chang: So it takes a dermatologist and rheumatologist to treat discoid lupus?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe said Dr. Metzger was amazing, became MJ’s internist. “And he was the best man in our wedding,” she said.
Chang: And he was almost phobic to needles?
Rowe: Oh, he was phobic.
C: And sometimes you’d have to literally hold his hand?
R: I always did
Rowe said Michael wanted her present in all procedures. She said he always had problems with scar on burn scalp.
Chang: Was Dr. Hoefflin a very prominent plastic surgeon?
Rowe: Yes, and very, very good.
Chang: He had painful burn keloids?
Rowe: They were keloids, I don’t believe there’s a different between burn or a cut. A keloid is a keloid
Rowe explained there were areas the scars were linear and elevated, other areas looked like skin had been stretched, other it was very thin
Chang: And do you know keloids can be very painful?
Rowe: They are.
Rowe said Asian skin and Black skin are the worse for trauma.
Rowe said keloid tissue is very dense, hard. To get cortisone in, you don’t want it to get around the keloid, you want it to get in the area
Cortisone softens the tissue. “You could hear the skin popping when the medication was going in,” Rowe said. “It was horribly painful.”
Rowe: He had such significant scarring, he didn’t have enough tissue left, there was no skin to stretch (to do reduction plastic surgery)
The burn area couldn’t grow hair, baldness also grew. “He hated it,” Rowe said. That’s when they called Dr. Sasaki, around 1993.
Rowe: What they show here is what happened to Michael. They would put saline every 7-10 days and let it stretch it out.
Chang: It literally expands, stretches the skin?
Rowe: Yes
It was brutally painful, Rowe said. “It required pain medication.”
There are time you cut keloid and you end up with bigger keloid, Rowe said. They wanted to have only 1 linear keloid on MJ’s head to deal
Around 1997, it fell apart. “Because of the lupus it didn’t hold down,” Rowe said. He had lumpier, bumpier keloids.
Rowe said after cortisone shot, sometimes the keloid would go down, sometime it would get worse.
Chang: And you saw first hand his fight with pain?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: I wasn’t assigned to help him recover, I took care of him when he came to see Dr. Klein.
Rowe said, crying, that she went with Michael to other procedures out of love, not because she had to.
Because he was my friend, I wanted to make sure he was ok. Rowe developed a pain scale to help measure Michael’s pain.
Chang: At what number he got scared?
Rowe: 3
She said it was easier to assess the pain that way.
I don’t know that his pain level went from 3 to 10, I know his fear accelerated because his fear of pain was so bad, Rowe explained.
Chang: When he had pain, did he have cold sweats?
Rowe: Yes
C: Was he pale?
R: Yes
Rowe said it was like a blind migraine, he couldn’t see, wasn’t performing at time, he couldn’t do anything.
Chang: Do you agree it was debilitating?
Rowe: Yes
C: And it was real?
R: Yes
Rowe: I didn’t want him to unnecessarily take, you don’t take vicodin if you can do it with motrin, for example.
She said they were doing demerol after surgery, then percocet.
Chang: He had legitimate need for pain medication?
Rowe: Yes
C: You agree MJ wanted to be responsible for pain management?
R: Yes
He didn’t want to be loopy, Rowe said. “When he had pain medication, he didn’t go out. We stayed in, because he was slurring.”
Chang: That’s not how he wanted to be?
Rowe: Correct
C: Was he perfectionist?
R: Meticulous
Chang: Do you agree he did the best he could?
Rowe: Yes
His biggest problem was that Dr. Klein and Dr. Hoefflin were trying to overprescribe medication, Rowe opined.
Chang: Just to be clear, not at the request of MJ?
Rowe: Yes
He did not want pain, Rowe said. She said he had no choice but deal with the doctors.
Rowe: After procedure in 93, MJ went on tour and was doing that part of the tour until Forecast, I met him one time I didn’t know who he was
Next time I met Michael in Mexico City and he was a mess, Rowe recalled.
Chang: He made an announcement to the world he needed to get help?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Did you ever hear the name Paul Gongaware?
Rowe: I don’t know why I know the name.
Rowe said they would not allow her to talk to Forecast. Chang asked if she knew Forecast has been hired by the insurance company. Objection
Chang asked if tours caused MJ extreme stress or anxiety. She said yes.
Chang: Did he try to hide any drugs from you?
Rowe: Not that I know of
Rowe: When I’d go to a concert and I was fortunate enough to be on stage, I’d see him.
MJ was my friend before anything else, Rowe said. “I’m so freaking lucky.”
It was just, it was surreal, because I wasn’t a fan, I was his friend first, Rowe explained.
Rowe: The show was amazing, the dancers were amazing, Michael was so physical when he’d do his performance.
Rowe: He’d still ask ‘how did I do, did I do ok?’ Really dude, you didn’t hear 55,000 people screaming? I think you did ok.
It was an athletic event to see him perform, Rowe explained.
Rowe said on “This Is It” MJ wasn’t performing, it was just a run-through of what he would do on the show.
Most important, he became a dad, Rowe said. “He said they take the oath to do no harm. He was very loyal to his physicians.”
Rowe: I knew that the only one who had Michael’s best interest was Dr. Metzger. He treated him as a patient, human being and a friend.
Rowe said there worse type of medical care is:
– very rich: can buy it
– very poor: can’t afford any
– very famous: can dictate it
When it came to the pain he wasn’t dictating, it was begging for relief, Rowe described. “He trusted what doctors were doing.”
Rowe said she tried to tell MJ he allowed doctors to control him too much, he should not be submissive.
Chang: Was he treated like a cash cow?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Was he engaged in doctor shopping?
Rowe: No
Rowe: There may have been, I don’t know. I had not really heard about doctor shopping, specially at the degree we have today, back then.
Chang said in 2000 MJ was seeing a lot of doctors. Rowe said he had his doctors in LA.
Rowe said she always instructed the nannies to have doctors on standby when they travelled and to keep notes of their treatment.
Chang: Did he have to search for doctors to give him drugs?
Rowe: No
Chang: In your opinion, when he saw doctors is because he needed it?
Rowe: That’s very general…
Rowe: Not every appointment was ‘I have to see a doctor.’ It was ‘I’m going to have a performance, I need to have collagen.’
Chang: Would you agree that MJ never sought after doctors just to get medication?
Rowe: Not that I know of.
Rowe said she is nosy, so she checked all the medications the doctors gave him.
Attorneys talked over each other objecting. “I feel their pain,” Rowe said pointing to the jurors.
Regarding Hoefflin putting MJ down and not treating him, Rowe said: “I didn’t think I saw it, I saw it! I was there, I saw it!”
Rowe said that when she worked with Dr. Klein, MJ’s vitiligo got progressively worse.
Rowe said she would watch movies with MJ all the time. Some times they went to the movie theater, even though MJ had a theater at Neverland.
Rowe said MJ would call her and say “To Kill a Mockingbird” is on. “He was great friends with Gregory Peck,” she explained.
They didn’t know what schiferella was, so MJ told her lets call Gregory Peck. Peck explained a bunch of things of the movie to them.
Rowe said when MJ was very contemplative, they went to Forest Lawn (cemetery) over Griffith Park. “Michael loves sculpture,” she explained.
I never realized that’s a place he could go and it was quiet, and just be himself. It was nice, it was nice, Rowe recalled.
She said there wasn’t a bunch of people, he could go and hang out.
Rowe said that when he was feeling depressed, she took him out. There were a lot of impersonators in the 80-90s.
Rowe: I drive a Celica, really, MJ in a Celica?
She said at one time they went to tower records without security. She said there were only a few people in there, MJ was looking at CDs.
Rowe: Then I hear from across the room ‘Debbie, do you know this? Then everyone knew who he was, the store was packed in 20 minutes.
Rowe locked herself in bathroom at Tower Records with MJ and called his security to pick them up. “I got in so much trouble,” she recalled.
Rowe: He said you should incorporate horses with your love of animals. He paid for me to go back to school.
Rowe: In concerts, those girls will kill you to get near the stage — fans laughed in overflow room
He helped whoever he could Rowe said.
Rowe said security would give watches and rings. MJ would pick a girl to dance with him. “I thought that was so sweet.”
Chang showed video of woman on stage hugging Michael during “You’re Not Alone” song. Rowe cried watching it.
He had difficulty to sleep anywhere, it wasn’t just a tour problem, Rowe said.
Rowe: “I’d see him go 4 days without sleep because he was thinking of a song or a project he wanted to do.”
Chang: Fournier never gave MJ anesthesia for just sleep, right?
Rowe: Correct
Around 1997, near the end of tour, he uses Propofol to sleep in Munich.
Chang: MJ never sought out anesthesiologist just for the purpose to sleep prior to that, correct?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe: After HIStory he couldn’t sleep, he talked to me and I said he had to talk to Metzger.
Chang asked about the conversation Rowe and MJ had with Dr. Metzger about him not sleeping while in Germany.
There were 2 anesthesiologists that came over, Rowe said. They brought in heart monitor and equipment to the hotel, didn’t hide anything.
Chang: Based on your observations, he never asked for medication to sleep?
Rowe: Not that I knew of.
Rowe: I discussed with, I can assume that Dr. Metzger had a discussion with these doctors about what they were going to do.
Chang: Outside the US, do they use Propofol to treat insomnia?
Rowe corrected: It was Diprivan.
Rowe: Metzger had conversation with MJ. Apparently it was decided these doctors were going to give him anesthesia to put him to sleep 8 hrs.
Rowe said she spoke with the doctors to make sure she knew what they were doing. The doctors spoke English.
Rowe: I spoke to Metzger to make sure it was the same medication
I knew they were anesthesiologists, they had practice in Munich. I don’t know if they had gone to hotels to do this, Rowe said.
In 1996, the law prohibited the use of any anesthesia outside a surgical center.
Chang: You would not allow any illegal procedure in the hotel room, correct?
Rowe: Yes. Not knowing.
Rowe said the doctors had physicians desk reference book with them. They told Michael there was risk, including death.
Rowe: My fear in addition to harm, it was because he was clean, this was after he went to rehab.
I didn’t want anything they were giving him to affect his addiction to demerol, Rowe testified.
Rowe said doctors were very detailed kept medical records. If she didn’t feel comfortable, she wouldn’t have allowed treatment to take place
This was 5 months after Prince was born, Rowe recalled. “They told me that anything more than 4 hours they had 2 physicians.”
It took some planing to put the equipment together, Rowe said.
Chang: Did he ever say bring the equipment in the dark in the middle of the night through an alley?
Rowe: He came through the front door
Chang: And secutity brought them up?
Rowe: I don’t believe anyone ever come up without security.
The doctors were there on 2 occasions, with all the same equipment. Sometimes Michael would get IV for dehydration after shows, Rowe said.
Chang: He used IVs for fluids, vitamins while on tour, right?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Based on your observations on that tour, Mr. Jackson wasn’t asking medication to get high?
Rowe: No.
He didn’t like being high, Rowe testified.
Chang: During the 20 years you were friends not habit of diprivan or any anesthesia to sleep?
Rowe: Not that I know
Chang: Did you have discussions he wanted to be a father?
Rowe: He loved kids, he did.
Rowe: He was devastated after the divorce, I was trying to help. What does make you the happiest? ‘I want to be a father’ he said.
Rowe said she told him he could still be a father. They talked about it and then… it happened.
Chang showed Rowe and MJ in a Harley motorcycle, he was with make-up on.
He always had crews with him to document stuff, Rowe said. She took him for a ride and took him to a tarmac and said I need to talk to you.
I said you’re going to be a dad, Rowe said, sobbing. “He was so excited, he ran out in the tarmac screaming.”
Chang asked if he bought all the books around. Rowe said he was a big reader anyway. “He wanted to be the best dad he could be” she recalled
Rowe said she asked Michael to make two cassettes for Prince, she wanted the baby to hear his voice.
I had a headset over my stomach so baby could hear him, so the baby knows who you are, Rowe described. “They knew his voice.”
Chang showed pictures of Dr. Metzger and Rowe/MJ in Sydney during wedding, MJ, Debbie and kids.
He was amazing, Rowe said about MJ as a father. Rowe told Michael Paris was going to have him around her little finger.
Rowe: Before anybody knew I was pregnant with this baby, he was shopping for clothes, would donate some times.
I was pregnant, he was picking clothes for his own children, Rowe said.
Chang: Did you make a decision to leave the children with Michael?
Rowe: Yes
C: Ever regretted it?
R: No
Rowe: Michael wanted to be a father. I dind’t sign on to be a mom. I loved him very much, and I still do.
Rowe: I wanted him to be a father, to have everything the didn’t have growing up, to experience it with this own children.
Chang: To have a full childhood?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Did you think MJ would be a good father?
Rowe: I never questioned that he wouldn’t be.
Chang: Do you still love them?
Rowe: I’m so proud of them.
Chang asked how MJ looked in the This Is It movie. “He looked horrible,” she responded.
Rowe learned about MJ’s death on the radio, she was driving home.
Rowe said she saw Prince at least once after MJ died. “We don’t hate each other,” she said. But she’s closer to Paris.
Rowe said at the end of March, April started seeing Paris, talked on the phone every day. “She stayed weekends with me,” Rowe testified.
Their father is dead, an emotional Rowe said. “When I saw the tour come out, the schedule…”
I almost lost my daughter, Rowe said, sobbing on the stand.
She is devastated, she tried to kill herself, she is devastated. She has no life, she doesn’t’ feel like she has a life anymore, Rowe said
Rowe left the courtroom sobbing. Judge broke session for a couple of minutes.
My children were never a sacrifice, Rowe said.
In re-direct, Rowe said Dr. Klein treated MJ for acne, lupus, scarring and vitiligo.
Rowe said she wasn’t present when Michael had Botox because when she worked at Dr. Klein it had not been FDA approved yet.
Putnam: Did he use Diprivan for collagen procedure?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe said it was just demerol when collagen was injected around the mouth area.
But when injection was under the eye, it was painful, that’s when we started the anesthesia, Rowe explained.
Rowe said she asked Michael Jackson are you here because you really need collagen, or why are you here.
I didn’t understand why he would come twice for collagen when he just had it done, Rowe questioned.
This was early 90s. She was concerned MJ was coming in for the drugs.
Putnam: You grew concerned about diprivan intake, approached Klein?
Rowe: That was demerol, I called Dr. Metzger, I was concerned about demerol. Dr. Metzger said up disteril, lower demerol.
Putnam: Did you asked Dr. Klein Michael was addicted to diprivan because of frequency he was using it?
Rowe: Yes. Late 80s, early 90s.
Rowe said Michael called her while he was in rehab in England. She said she told him she was working, since normal people worked.
She told him he had to stop everything. He said he was working on it.
Putnam: Including Diprivan?
Rowe: Yes, everything
P: In 1993?
R: Yes
HIStory tour was 96-97, Munich.
Putnam: Metzger had Jackson’s interest in mind?
Rowe: Yes
Rowe said Dr. Metzger directed her to bring a bag of medication to the Peninsula Hotel for Dr. Forecast.
Dr. Klein went to HIStory tour to do collagen touch ups, acne treatment.
He gave MJ demerol.
I was told you can’t become addicted to diprivan, Rowe testified. She said it was an anesthesia.
Before you go to sleep, there’s a bit of loss of control, she explained. “I was worried that sensation might trigger an addiction.”
He was a bit of a control freak, he didn’t like to be high, Rowe said.
Rowe: I was just worried that part of the anesthesia would kick in. I was told you can’t become addiction to it.
Rowe: Dr. Metzger wanted to try Xanax and Michael said that hadn’t work. I said you need to talk to each other and let me know what to do.
The shows were all the same, just the girls were different, Rowe said. And joked: “Uah, that sounds so cheap!” Everyone laughed.
After the divorce, Rowe never talked to the doctors about Michael’s treatment anymore.
Putnam: After 2000, whatever happened to Mr. Jackson you don’t have first knowledge?
Rowe: Correct
In re-cross, Chang questioned: When you asked Dr. Klein if anyone could be addicted to diprivan, he said no, correct?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Was the bag of medication to wean MJ off demerol before 1993 rehab?
Rowe: Yes
Chang: Did he do everything he could to be the best?
Rowe: He did
Rowe was excused.
AEG called their next witness, Dr. David Hal Slavit, via video deposition. He’s a board certified otolaryngology.
He’s licensed to practice medicine in New York and New Jersey. He’s never been suspended.
Dr. Slavit performed physical exams in hundreds of patients. He has performed physical for purposes of insurance, he said.
He explained the difference of physicals: problem-focus, more complete and comprehensive.
Dr. Slavit has performed physical for performance cancellation insurance.
He said he checks vital signs, ear, nose, throat, neck, eyes, examination heart, lungs, abdomen and peripheral pulses.
Q: Who typically contact you for performance cancellation insurance?
Dr. Slavit said it’s usually insurance broker or artist management.
He said he’s done approximately 30 physicals for performance cancellation insurance, mostly for singers, but not all.
The majority of times, check comes from the insurance broker. He’s done physicals in hotels, rehearsal studios, artist’s home, office
Dr. Slavit said he’s done approximately 20 times for Robertson Taylor, insurance broker.
On Feb 4, 2009, Dr. Slavit conducted a physical on Michael Jackson in connection with a performance cancellation insurance.
Bob Taylor contacted Dr Slavit somewhere in the months prior to the physical. “He basically asked if I would agree to do the physical on MJ”
It was my understanding he was going to perform, Dr. Slavit said.
Yes, I requested to reviewed the prior 5 years of medical records, Dr. Slavit said. He wanted to be as accurate as possible.
I’d say it’s not typical, Dr. Slavit testified about getting 5 years prior of medical history, but he had done before other than MJ.
Dr. Slavit said this is done if there were prior questions of medical health.
There were questions that had been raised by the broker, Dr. Slavit said. He doesn’t know specifically what was asked.
Dr. Slavit said insurance broker questioned MJ’s breathing capacity, his pulmonary status and overall health.
Q: Nothing about prior drug abuse?
Dr. Slavit: Not that I recall.
The doctor did not ask anything else other than 5 years medical history. He said he was not limited in MJ’s examination at any time.
Dr. Slavit never received any MJ’s medical history, other than what the artist told him during examination.
Attorney showed documents doc prepared during and after the physical.
The physical was done at MJ’s house in Los Angeles, the doctor said.
Patient’s name on blood work request: Mark Jones. It’s an alias, Dr. Slavit said, just to protect Michael Jackson’s privacy.
Q: Did you find MJ to be in great physical condition?
A: Based on the informaiton I had, yes
Note on form says “today’s found Mr. Jackson to be in excellent condition.” It also says MJ had allergy and a bit of cold.
He was on short course of antibiotics, Dr. Slavit said, he’s not on any other medication.
Q: Did he tell you he was taking painkillers?
A: He told me he was not taking any painkillers.
He stated he was not taking any medications other than antibiotics, Dr. Slavit testified.
Dr. Slavit didn’t see anything that suggested MJ was not telling the truth. He didn’t find any typical signs of narcotic intoxication.
Dr. Conrad Murray follows Mr. Jackson on a regular basis, the form said.
Dr. Slavit explained Murray was identified by Mr. Jackson as his personal physician and reported seeing him as needed.
Dr. Slavit: He reported seeing him a couple of months prior to the physical just for check-up.
It was a routine check-up, Dr. Salvit said. MJ didn’t discuss the details of the visit.
Other than Dr. Kantor no one else was mentioned as providing care, Dr Slavit said.
Q: Did he tell you MJ said he liked Dr. Murray?
A: Yes
Q: Did he say he was a good doctor?
A: I don’t know if used that word
That he was caring for him, that he was satisfied with the care he was getting, that’s basically what he said, Dr. Slavit said.
Dr. Slavit’s form said MJ’s vital signs were normal. Heart sound was normal, no murmurs.
Dr. Slavit: I assessed his pulmonary status with stethoscope, no further pulmonary test done.
Q: Did you have difficulty drawing blood?
A: I had a little difficulty drawing blood.
He used MJ’s left arm, and took the specimen himself to the laboratory. Blood work result was normal consistent with MJ being in good health
Q: Was he capable of making decisions?
A: Yes
Form notes MJ was mature, open and candid with Dr. Slavit.
Q: Capable of control of his health?
A: Yes
Q: Why candid?
A: That’s the perception I got
Q: Was he lucid?
A: Yes
Q: Speech slurred?
A: No
Q: Tired?
A: No
Q: Did he say he had trouble sleeping?
A: He didn’t say he had trouble sleeping, he didn’t say he had insomnia..
Dr. Slavit: He denied any prior medical problem except for the cold.
Dr. Slavit wrote MJ was in good health, good diet and exercise. He interacted with his doctor for routine check ups.
MJ visited his laryngologist for minor issues, seemed proactive and attune to his health.
There was an acknowledgment of the need for rest or avoidance of exhaustion.
Q: Did MJ ask you to prescribe any medication?
A: No
Michael Jackson signed the forms. Dr. Slavit said he saw MJ sign it.
At the time of the examination the form was filled out with Michael Jackson. We reviewed the form before he signed it.
There are questions on the form that were filled out during the physical. Dr. Slavit said MJ was the only source of the responses.
Q: Was there any significant change of weight?
A: No
The question regarding excessive use of drugs or alcohol was circled ‘no’.
MJ told Dr. Slavit he was last examined a couple of months prior for routine. Dr. Murray was identified as personal physician.
When asked if he felt in good physical condition, Dr. Slavit said MJ responded yes. “That was his answer.”
Temperature was 98 degrees.
Weight: 127 lbs – MJ told him that’s what he weighed.
Q: Based on your examination, it appeared accurate?
A: Yes
Height was self reported also. He told Dr. Slavit he was 5 foot 9. Dr. Slavit received full payment for the physical on Michael Jackson.
Q: Did you notice any track mark on MJ when you examined him?
A: There were none
Q: Did you look his arms?
A: Yes
Q: His legs?
A: Yes
In the course of reviewing his past medical history there were no surgeries reported, Dr. Slavit said.
Dr. Slavit gave copy of the record to the Coroner pursuant to legal subpoena. Feb 2009 was the only time Dr. Slavit talked to MJ.
Dr. Slavit charges:
$5,849 for travel and hotel
$3,000 lab and supply
$6,000 for service
Dr. Slavit: My understanding my job was to find out if he was able physically to perform.
I was never provided records, Dr. Slavit said. He never contacted Dr. Murray directly to get medical record.
I would require permission from MJ to do that (test for opiates or drugs), Dr. Slavit said. There was no need at the time to test him.
Dr. Slavit had been working with Bob Taylor for about 10 years prior to doing physical with MJ.
Q: Did Mr. Taylor tell you MJ was being badly mauled in the press in England and that it was getting difficult to obtain insurance?
A: No
Dr. Slavit did not know where the rumors came from.
Q: Was it clear to you that MJ had plastic surgery?
A: Yes
Dr. Slavit said he examined inside MJ’s nose and how it looked.
Q: And did it look ok?
A: Yes
Dr. Slavit was at MJ’s house between 2.5 and 3 hours for the physical.
Q: If you had any suspicion that MJ was using opioids or other drugs improperly, you’d you have tested him?
A: I may have
Q: Did Mr. Jackson deny anything you requested of him?
A: No
That ended the testimony. Court was adjourned and jurors ordered to return today at 9:30 am PT.
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Here are the ABC tweets about the Tuesday testimony of William Ackerman, AEG’s financial expert who testified before Dr. Sasaki (Dr. Sasaki’s testimony is provided in the body of this post):
Tuesday August 13, 2013 DAY 68
Hello from the courthouse in downtown LA. Day 68 of Jackson family vs AEG trial, Week 16, is about to begin.
Katherine Jackson is present in court, wearing a long navy blue jacket.
Outside the presence of the jury, attorneys and judge are now arguing about boundaries for William Ackerman’s testimony.
They are also discussing exhibits and charts presented yesterday. Jury is sitting in the hallway waiting to be called in.
AEG’s expert witness, CPA William Ackerman, is set to resume testimony today. He’s expected to last all day on the stand.
We’ll bring you all the details of today’s testimony as soon as we can. Remember, per judge, no live tweets.
Ackerman is back on the stand for cross examination. Brian Panish, attorney for the Jacksons, doing the questioning.
Panish asked what was the life expectancy for a 50 year old male based on the table he used to calculate Katherine Jackson’s life expectancy
Ackerman: According to this table a male of 50 years old would be 29.6 years.
I can’t speculate what he’d give for support Ackerman said. “I do know he was in very precarious financial situation at the time he died.”
He could’ve been bankrupt within 6 months as far as I know, Ackerman opined. Panish asked if after bankruptcy MJ wouldn’t have debt left.
Ackerman: He would not be able to provide support for his mother and children then.
Ackerman said MJ received $6.2 million in advance from AEG. Panish said MJ received $23 million in 6 months in 2009.
Panish: You can’t tell us what support he would be able to provide, right, sir?
Ackerman: I think that’s for the jury to decide.
Panish: Did you know MJ gave Mrs. Jackson a $500,000 RV?
Ackerman: Yes, it was in my analysis.
Ackerman said there was no record of MJ’s amount of donations over the years.
Ackerman testifies he saw on documents that MJ was going to donate the proceeds of “Dangerous” tour to charity.
Panish: Did you see he donated over $60 million to charity?
Objection, sustained.
Panish: Do you agree MJ was a very generous person?
Ackerman: I absolutely agree with that.
Panish asked if he thought MJ would give the kids everything he thought important. Ackerman responded MJ wanted his children to be humble
The bill for Ackerman’s firm is about $900,000 currently. Panish wrote on a board what other damages expert for AEG charged.
Bill from damages experts for AEG:
Ackerman — $900,000
Briggs — $700,000
Total: $1.6 million
Ackerman doesn’t recall being qualified as expert witness for plaintiffs in a wrongful death case.
Panish asked what percentage of his work is in wrongful death cases. “Very small percentage,” Ackerman responded.
Ackerman said he reviewed a lot of trial testimony, but even more depositions in this case.
Panish asked Ackerman for amount he used for the chart before he applied the 18% discount rate to bring the final number to present value.
Ackerman looked at docs in his binders, said he doesn’t have original numbers w/ him. He said the calculations need to be done in software
Panish showed Ackerman Formuzis analysis and the calculation for personal consumption and professional fees.
Formuzis used 7% discount rate. Panish asked if Ackerman used the same rate. “It’s an improper rate why would I do that?” Ackerman responded
MJ had a $320 million debt against the Sony/ATV catalogue. Ackerman said the highest interest rate was 16.85%.
Panish asked Ackerman if he read IRS valued of Sony/ATV catalogue at $700 million.
It would not change my conclusion, no sir, Ackerman explained.
Panish said Briggs testified independent appraisal valued at Sony/ATV catalogue at $700 million: $300MM on top of $400MM MJ had in debt.
I’m having a really hard time using that number, Ackerman said.
Ackerman said MIJAC catalogue was same amount of the debts on it. He said the value is about $ 75 million.
There was no equity in that asset in June 2009, Ackerman said he read in the documents.
Liability exceeded any amount of value of the assets, Ackerman testified.
Ackerman said he did not put a value on the assets MJ had.
Neverland — there’s some value
MIJAC catalogue — there’s some value
Sony/ATV catalogue — there’s a value
Panish: AEG knew MJ’s financial condition when they entered into an agreement with him, didn’t they, sir?
Ackerman: I don’t know that.
Panish asked if Ackerman read Randy Phillips’ deposition where he said they were aware of MJ’s finances.
Panish asked if Ackerman read Tom Barrack’s testimony that he met with MJ several times to straighten his financial situation.
Ackerman said there was some mention to it but doesn’t remember the details of the meeting.
The expert said his normally hour rate is $475.
Panish showed Ackerman several bills from his firm where they researched Colony Capital and MJ’s deal.
Ackerman: Colony Capital came in when Neverland was about to be foreclosed and lent MJ $23 million with a very interest rate, by the way.
Panish: But didn’t you testify yesterday the loan had no interest?
Ackerman explained it was high interest loan but he didn’t have to pay it
Panish: He never liquidated his assets, did he sir?
Ackerman: He never did.
Panish said MJ didn’t want to liquidate his assets, instead he wanted to go back touring.
Ackerman said Michael Jackson signed the contract with AEG to go back on tour.
Panish asked where Ackerman researched Colony Capital and MJ’s deals.
There’s a really interesting tool called internet, there are a lot of things you can find there, Ackerman responded.
Panish asked if MJ decided to go on tour after meeting with Tom Barrack. Ackerman said it appeared that way.
Panish: Did you do any discount rate of 7, 10 or 15%?
Ackerman: No, I did not. I used 18%.
Panish: Have you prepared calculation of personal consumption for MJ per year?
Ackerman: I actually calculated something this morning.
Ackerman said the bars on the graph he showed yesterday include personal consumption.
Panish asked if he came up with numbers after speaking with his attorneys yesterday.
Today is typically after yesterday, Ackerman responded.
Judge struck the answer.
Panish: Do you know if AEG submitted a $300,000 in expense that had been accrued for the the services of Dr. Murray?
Panish showed documents to Ackerman to refresh his recollection.
Ackerman: I have a vague recollection of seeing this number.
Judge then broke session for lunch. We should be back shortly.
Panish asked if Ackerman knows that Erk did not include the interest rate in his calculations of consumption. He said yes.
Ackerman said had Erk included interest, the red bar would go much higher, since most of the expenses are interest.
Panish: Did Mr. Briggs give a number for loss of future earnings for MJ? Ackerman said he recalls Briggs saying projections were speculative
Panish: Did Mr. Briggs give an opinion the amount MJ would lose in future earnings?
Ackerman: I don’t recall.
Panish asked if Briggs said the amount for future earning for MJ would be zero. Ackerman said he doesn’t remember Briggs putting a number.
My fundamental understanding his (Briggs) testimony is that Mr. Erk’s calculations were speculative, Ackerman said.
The reality is that Mr. Jackson could lose money, Ackerman said, pointing that MJ had debts that could offset anything he earned.
Panish: Did Mr. Briggs put no figure for loss of income for MJ’s life?
Ackerman: That’s correct.
Panish: And in your opinion is that the children lost $21.5 millions in future support?
Ackerman said that was correct, if you were to believe MJ would continue to give the same support as previous years.
It could be zero support too, Ackerman opined. “He was in pretty bad financial situation.”
Panish asked if support could’ve been zero. “I guess in that situation yes, it could have been zero,” Ackerman responded.
Panish: For $1.6 million, it’s your and Briggs’ opinion, that MJ’s loss of future earning could be zero?
Ackerman: That’s a possibility.
Panish concluded, Sabrina Strong did re-direct. She asked the witness if there a difference between consumption and spending. He said no.
I believe I shared multiple data points of how much Mr. Jackson spent on the last 8 years of his life, Ackerman said.
Strong showed exhibit with chart Ackerman made regarding MJ’s expenses. Ackerman said the bars show what MJ actually spent.
Strong: Does that include business and personal spending?
Ackerman said yes, that the bars included interest, business, personal, all that came out of MJ’s checkbook, since he was responsible for all
He dug himself a very deep hole, Ackerman explained. “He was tapped out.”
Ackerman said there was very strong language in Michael Kane’s deposition that Michael Jackson was tapped out.
Mr. Barrack was in the frame of mind that MJ didn’t have enough income to support his spending and lifestyle, Ackerman testified.
Strong: Were there other outstanding debt for Mr. Jackson at the time Tohme was holding the $5 million for MJ?
Ackerman: Huge
Ackerman listed MJ’s debts:
MIJAC
Hayvenhurst
Condo
Neverland
Sony/ATV
Ackerman said on top of that there were creditors debts in the amount of $100 million.
There were just no shortage of people he had to pay, Ackerman explained.
As the debt continue to grow, the interest continued to grow, Ackerman explained.
Ackerman: There is a significant issue of doubt whether he (MJ) would be able to continue to provide support.
He couldn’t get an increase in his $50,000 credit card limit, Ackerman said. “That’s how bad it was.”
Ackerman said the MJ’s income were from Sony/ATV and MIJAC catalogues. “You lose the asset, you lose the income,” Ackerman opined.
Strong asked about IRS’ valuation of Sony catalogue. Ackerman said Briggs’ opinion was that that asset was not that valuable.
Ackerman said Briggs did valuation of Sony/ATV catalogue for tax return purposed on behalf of MJ’s Estate.
Ackerman said the Sony/ATV catalogue debt interest was 7%. This was the majority of the debt MJ had.
Ackerman explained the Sony/ATV loan was very unique in many ways. He said it was collateralized by the catalogue itself.
He also said there was a bankruptcy remote trust attached to the catalogue, if asset were to be sold the proceeds would first to repay debt.
On top of that, Ackerman said Sony guaranteed they would pay $300 million in case everything else failed.
It was the most secured loan I’ve ever seen, Ackerman said. “It caused the interest rate to go way down.”
Strong asked about the bill Panish said AEG submitted to MJ’s Estate that included $300,000 for the cost of Dr. Murray’s services.
Ackerman read the footnote: the contract is not signed by MJ and such a signature was a condition precedent to any payment obligation.
Regarding necessities to live, Strong asked Ackerman if a mortgage of $35,000 a month is necessary to live. He answered no.
Strong: Do you believe $111,000 a year in repairs and maintenance necessary to live?
Objection, lack of foundation. Judge sustained.
Ackerman said Prince drives a Ford truck. He calculated his car to be a BMW.
The expert explained his oversight only benefited the plaintiffs, since he calculated more money for support.
Ackerman said MJ would have to have enough income to service all the debts, personnel, creditors and to support to plaintiffs.
I think he’d have significant difficulty in continue to provide the support, Ackerman opined.
Panish, in re-direct, asked if Barrack testified that, with Colony Capital help, MJ could overcome his debts and he could become a success?
Ackerman: I don’t recall that.
After reviewing Barrack’s deposition, Ackerman said yes.
I think they all thought and hoped the tour would be successful, Ackerman testified.
Panish: Did you read anything about MJ’s relationship with his mother and children?
Ackerman: My recollection it was very loving.
Panish: Did you read anywhere that MJ denied his mother or children anything?
Ackerman: I don’t recall that.
Panish asked if Ackerman is here to help the plaintiffs. He said he’s here to try to be fair.
Ackerman said he came up with a very generous support numbers should the jury decide to award anything.
Ackerman said at the end of MJ’s life, he had close to $30 million a year in interest, his total overall expenses was $30-45 million range.
Panish: Did you do a calculation for the loss of their father, loss of care, comfort, society, affection?
Ackerman: I don’t think I’m qualified to calculate that.
Ackerman was excused. Judge broke for afternoon break.
Outside the presence of the jury, there was a discussion with the attorneys whether plaintiffs have formally rested their case.
Panish to tell the judge in the morning. She wants to tell the jury and put it in the record.
Defendants have filed a motion for non-suit already. Judge said she won’t rule on it right away.
AEG called their next witness via video deposition Dr Gordon Hiroshi Sasaki
(see the post please for the short of his testimony, please)
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Arnold Klein called her that way and this is how Debbie Rowe is still recognized the world over, so I see no harm in calling Debbie a nurse. She was actually much more than that to MJ – a caring person, a friend, a wife, a mother to his children, and a woman who still loves him very much. One of the conclusions from this post is that it took a simple “nurse” to help Michael a lot, while doctors whose profession is to help often did him only harm.
By the way Debbie Rowe is also a psychologist, only after finishing college she went away to breed horses. She was evidently sick and tired of human beings and realized that animals are often a better species. At least they won’t do harm intentionally.
Get your facts straight, dear. Michael chose the best doctors he could ever have – all of them are the most reputable people and are the best in their profession. And see what they did to him.
As to sleep therapy I am amazed to learn from Debbie’s testimony that Dr. Metzger did take Michael to some sleep facility only evidently it did not help: “Rowe said they were going to a sleep facility, she wasn’t with him, she believes Dr. Metzger went along.” (I hope to get more details about it from the transcript).
As to “buying kids” and “buying silence” I don’t even know what you are talking of. Probably your own perception of things and therefore yourself?
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“Thankyou, thankyou, thanykyou Helena, from the bottom of my heart, for this post.” – alice
Alice, thank you and everybody for being patient with me. I need to explain a few things and also have a question to you.
First of all, I’ve realized that sometimes it is much more important to make several posts about one testimony (like Debbie’s) and stay on it for as long as it is needed than report all of them in equal measure. There is nothing easier for me than compile all those ABC tweets into one post and report them as they are, without any comment, but I am not very much inclined to leave all those lies from AEG “experts” without comment or analysis, and analysing them takes time.
But if you need such a post – a purely informative one (for example, everything those AEG experts said on week 16) – please tell me. I think I can do it pretty quickly, only I don’t see the point as you can read all those ABC tweets yourselves. As an alternative I can post all those ABC tweets for week 16 in the comments.
And the second thing I wanted to say is that TeamMJ has posted a transcript of Debbie’s testimony (the after lunch part of it). As usual, the transcript provides some interesting details, but the text will have to be retyped as the format does not allow copying. When I retype some excerpts I will either add them to this post or turn them into a separate one.
In the meantime I will embed the transcript into this post.
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Hi everyone,
I watched an excellent documentary last night on TV and found it to be very interesting in the way much of what happened during the events reflects the manner in which the abuse trials were so wrongfully held, constructed and sensationalised against Michael.
Many of you may remember the event itself, but I was too young at the time so it is new to my eyes and mind.
Beyond the gross injustice inflicted upon these five young boys, just like the gross injustice inflicted upon Michael, I found it particularly interesting hearing the commentary from people about the way the case was treated by the media, why it was treated this way, the way in which the police officers not only bullied people but intentionally concocted their theories to fit their own agenda, and mostly the ease with which many of us could interpret that these commentators could have also been talking about many of the preposterous cases brought against Michael – also a black man (though not young like these boys).
A lot of the sickening, racial and prejudiced climate that these events and happenings ignited may also have contributed, in some way, to the general consensus against other people of a different race to somehow ‘threatening’ the majority race in power.
They certainly didn’t help.
I will try to embed the video below & also provide a link to where it can be seen online.
Please be aware the doco does go for about two hours, but nonetheless I feel it makes for compelling and insightful viewing particularly in light of the treatment of police, lawyers and media to these innocent young black men for crimes they did not commit – and the shocking, shameful lack of coverage when their innocence was finally proven by the testimony of the real offender.
Link: http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/40192579812/The-Central-Park-Five-Central-Park-Five
-alice
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Hi Rebel,
Have you had a chance to come up with any answers to my questions regarding discrepancies in both of your previous comments? The fact you have seen fit to post more comments without addressing my previous questions only certifies the impression your negation to do so thus far is not a matter of time constraints you may have been suffering.
This only leads me to believe that you either cannot or will not produce any legitimate responses of corroboration addressing the issues I raised. Because they are not legitimate. Both circumstances only further discredit your claims and, conversely, strengthen the validity of my questioning. Ergo, your latest post deserves little worthy attention until you are able to redeem your credibility by responding to previous items of note. Still, you have taken the time to offer your opinion and I would like to take the time to again question you.
If you are willing and able (the latter should be easy, considering the ease with which you make these claims… unless you enjoy making a habit of spewing forth wild accusations without reason or evidence involved?) to respond to my previous questions for both of your posts plus my following questions, it will only stand to your benefit.
Note: If the fact Debbie Rowe is technically not a ‘nurse’ is the only legitimate irregularity you can draw out of Helena’s post, then I am at a loss to see what else warrants or legitimises your other claims – both in this post and in others. Dr. Thome is not a doctor but everyone still calls him that because that is the phrasing which we all are used to. There’s also considerable evidence to support a potential argument that Dr. Murray may not be, effectively, a practicing doctor anymore either. But you still called him Dr. Murray.
RE:
“Second, Michael suffered because he chose not to get the right help. He used his money to BUY ; Doctors, including Murray.”
Michael chose not to get the right help? Are you serious? Are you saying he CHOSE doctors that he knew would get caught up in ‘pissing matches’ between each other and neglect proper and reasonable care for him? That he somehow knew in advance this would happen so he intentionally chose these people because of that? Are you suggesting he actually did this, had some sort of premonition, and actively chose these people anyway purely to prolong his own suffering? That he LIKED being in pain? Is that what you mean?
Did you listen to -any- of Debbie Rowe’s testimony?
And of course he used money after being treated by most of his doctors. Of course he paid them. Because, newsflash, that’s what everybody has to do. Doctors cost money.
Michael did not, however, pay Murray according to the terms set out in his contact which was drawn up with AEG. Because AEG never advanced the first two lots of $150,000 for this payment to occur. They withheld it. The only money ever passed to Murray during the the lead-up to Michael’s death was a few handfuls of cash given to Murray via Prince. Because Michael felt sorry for him that AEG were withholding the money. Conversely, we can interpret that Murray refused to take the money directly from Michael because he was under the impression that it would be coming from AEG soon.
“To buy kids from staging a fake marriage to Rowe.”
Their marriage was not fake. It happened. They got married. Ergo, the marriage existed. Whether or not they were in a sexual relationship is irrelevant to the legitimacy of the marriage itself. Is this what you are basing your belief on, whether or not their relationship -whatever it’s kind – involved direct intercourse? Because the two are not one and the same. Marriage need not involve sex, and sex need not involve marriage.
“To buy silence.”
It is nobody’s right to know how or why Prince and Paris (or Blanket, for that matter) were conceived. The press and the public mistakenly think it is their right to know this because Michael was famous. It is not.
“All he had to do was go to the right rehab, get off drugs, get the correct sleep therapy. But what would you do if you couldn’t send out this bs?”
Michael did go to rehab. He did get off his dependency on prescription medication. And he did seek out sleep therapy. The problem came in that almost all of the doctors who treated him did, in a succinct phrase, f*ck up. But according to you, this is what Michael wanted. This is what he ‘chose’. Because yeah, being in pain was Michael’s favourite thing in the world. That’s why he set his own head on fire. That’s why he broke his own leg. That’s why intentionally from a bridge onto a stage and severely injured his own back. That’s why he gave himself Lupus, and Vitiligo, and acne on purpose. Because he, in your words, chose to suffer. Ha. Now who’s sending out ‘bs’?
Get back to me when you have some legitimate answers to my questions.
This is three posts we are up to now that you have failed to validate.
I look forward to you proving yourself right, for a change.
-alice
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First, get facts straight, debbie Rowe was NO nurse, never was, never went to nurse training, she testified she had 8 mos. Training of emt. Get facts straight . Second, Michael suffered because he chose not to get the right help. He used his money to BUY ; Doctors, including Murray. To buy kids from staging a fake marriage to Rowe. To buy silence. All he had to do was go to the right rehab, get off drugs, get the correct sleep therapy. But what would you do if you couldn’t send out this bs?
Sent from my HTC One™ S on T-Mobile. America’s First Nationwide 4G Network.
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Oh, they did embed! Wonderful 🙂 all it took was me posting the link.
Lovely.
-alice
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Hi everyone,
Just thought I’d share with you all that new, unseen behind-the-scenes rehearsal footage from Ghosts, totalling an hour, has been leaked online. There are two videos, each half an hour in length, that were leaked via two fans yesterday.
Australian Michael fan Damien Shields put a post up on his blog which was where I saw it.
He was not one of the leakers, though. His page was also where I saw Behind the Mask.
Damien’s blog: http://www.damienshields.com/unreleased-behind-the-scenes-footage-from-michael-jacksons-ghosts-leaks-online/
& I would try and embed the videos directly below but I’m worried they may not work like happened last time, so here are the links to them both (Helena if you can embed them that would be wonderful, if you have the time, thank you!):
Enjoy them, and marvel at the beauty and genius of Michael at work.
A true joy.
-alice
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Thankyou, thankyou, thanykyou Helena, from the bottom of my heart, for this post.
Now if only someone could show your work to the jury!
-alice
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